All Australian thread 2015

[PendlePie]

If Kennedy was picked on the bench and Deledio didn't make it, nobody would've said anything.

Especially none of this nonsense about the bench having a certain number of inside vs. outside players. Or, for example, "Deledio should be over Kennedy as, on team-balance / ensuring a certain number of both outside and inside mids are picked, an extra outsider should be in for an inside mid"

Absolute bullshit. Deledio is deserving, but Kennedy taking his spot *on the bench* (key here - as bench is the only spot in the side where specific position is largely irrelevant) would've been completely fair and no rational person would've argued the opposite.

For mine, Martin should've been in for Deledio anyway. On HFF. With Cyril dropping out and Kennedy on the bench.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Especially none of this nonsense about the bench having a certain number of inside vs. outside players. Or, for example, "Deledio should be over Kennedy as, on team-balance, an extra outsider should be in for an inside mid"

For me, the question is whether there should be four mids on the bench in the first place. I think that's a valid query.

But if you've gone in that direction, there's no chopping it up and saying there's a spot for this kind of mid and another spot for another kind of mid. That's just false nuance. I mean, should we have a designated spot on the bench for a tagger or a defensive mid? I don't think you can go that far it terms of creating and assigning categories. That's a recipe for losing sight of which players actually had the best seasons.

Absolute bullshit. Deledio is deserving, but Kennedy taking his spot would've been completely fair and no rational person would've argued the opposite.

What about Richmond fans?

 

[PendlePie]

What about Richmond fans?

Hence the use of "rational"

 

[PendlePie]

For me, the question is whether there should be four mids on the bench in the first place. I think that's a valid query.

But if you've gone in that direction, there's no chopping it up and saying there's a spot for this kind of mid and another spot for another kind of mid. That's just false nuance.

This is the key point.

No way should Kennedy have missed out on a spot.

(Odds of $2.75 on him for Brownlow top 5 turned out to be quite beneficial )

 

[theghost]

What's your point?

Obviously these midfielders play different styles but that doesn't mean Deledio should be picked over Kennedy, who you could argue was more deserving.

As I said, this kind of diversity argument is forfeit by the fact you've got four mids on the bench in the first place. You can't then turn around and say, 'well, they had to be different kinds of mids'.

If diversity on the bench is a priority, why not a ruckman or another defender?

As we see, this diversity argument is a non-starter. In light of that, Kennedy could easily have been picked ahead of Deledio.

You love how I refer to you as "a supporter"? OK. That's weird.

And I have addressed your points – if you can call them that.

You've basically repeated over and over that Deledio's selection over Kennedy is justified because they couldn't have justified picking another inside mid. But, as I've demonstrated, this kind of diversity argument doesn't hold up when you've got four mids on the bench to begin with.

They would both be competing for a spot on the bench. How is that not the same spot?

Because he had a better season.

That's a far more compelling reason than your case for Deledio.

You could make cases for various players as the second ruckman.

The point is that if you're going to make the argument that there should be diversity on the bench, there's a problem with that when you've got four midfielders there.

Because he had a good enough season to justify selection and the diversity argument is neither here nor there.

If you want diversity, pick another ruckman or another defender.

Don't pick four midfielders and then fall back on diversity to justify one over the other. That diversity argument has already been thrown overboard by virtue of there being four midfielders.

We're not talking about Kennedy replacing Deledio on a wing or a HFF. We're talking about him replacing him on the bench, which is perfectly acceptable.

Besides, if we're judging Deledio as a forward, he shouldn't be in the side at all, given he kicked only 26 goals. The likes of Higgins, LeCras or Breust would be far more deserving if we're talking about genuine forwards. Rather, Deledio is in there as an attacking outside utility midfielder who can rotate through the engine room, a wing or a flank. Whether he was good enough in that role to be picked ahead of Kennedy is, I think, open to question.

I'm not sure you understand the modern positioning in football after what you have just stated.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm not sure you understand the modern positioning in football after what you have just stated.

Rightio, mate.

Why don't you tell me what crucial piece of information about 'the modern positioning' I'm overlooking?

The reality is that the AA team is still picked according to a traditional template so we have to fit players with more flexible or more varied roles into that as sensibly as we can.

 

[Ian Dunross]

How many Bulldogs have kicked 3 goals in a prelim - ever?

Is Brian Lake is the most successful bloke to play 200 games for the dogs? At a guess I'd say yes.

Why is that relevant?

What are you years old?

 

[t_bond_legend]

If Kennedy was picked on the bench and Deledio didn't make it, nobody would've said anything.

Especially none of this nonsense about the bench having a certain number of inside vs. outside players. Or, for example, "Deledio should be over Kennedy as, on team-balance / ensuring a certain number of both outside and inside mids are picked, an extra outsider should be in for an inside mid"

Absolute bullshit. Deledio is deserving, but Kennedy taking his spot *on the bench* (key here - as bench is the only spot in the side where specific position is largely irrelevant) would've been completely fair and no rational person would've argued the opposite.

Robbie Gray
Gray kicked the third most goals, contributed the most score assists and had the most disposals of any midfielder-forward.

Brett Deledio
The smooth moving forward was No.1 for marks, goals and score involvements out of all midfielder-forwards

How can you compare JPK to Lids/Gray when they are different players? That is the logic here. You cannot. If you want to replace someone with JPK, you have Mitchell, Mundy, Priddis, Fyfe, Dangerfield to choose from. I wouldn't have been upset if JPK got the nod over Deledio either, but I see the thought process behind the selections on the bench and am clearly trying to represent that fact but somehow, it goes over a lot of people's heads. I am not saying Deledio > JPK, I am saying that Deledio is deserving of a spot as a HF but missed out, so is next in line on the bench, as a HF. JPK should be next in line for inside mids/contested ball winners and should have a rightful spot on the bench or starting for that matter (but I've already addressed this previously when the teams were released), at the expense of another player that plays in that same position (Mitchell/Mundy).
To say 'x player' is more deserving than 'y player' and absolutely disregarding the positions they play in is ignorant (not saying you are)
You cannot compare an apple to an orange, and I've actually made a case for JPK to be included in the side, so you have a rational Richmond fan here.

For mine, Martin should've been in for Deledio anyway. On HFF. With Cyril dropping out and Kennedy on the bench.

Deledio has been a lot more impactful in his position compared to Martin this year, but again, I wouldn't have cared if he got the nod over Deledio either, as they both had stellar seasons.

 

[PendlePie]

Robbie Gray
Gray kicked the third most goals, contributed the most score assists and had the most disposals of any midfielder-forward.

Brett Deledio
The smooth moving forward was No.1 for marks, goals and score involvements out of all midfielder-forwards

How can you compare JPK to Lids/Gray when they are different players? That is the logic here. You cannot. If you want to replace someone with JPK, you have Mitchell, Mundy, Priddis, Fyfe, Dangerfield to choose from. I wouldn't have been upset if JPK got the nod over Deledio either, but I see the thought process behind the selections on the bench and am clearly trying to represent that fact but somehow, it goes over a lot of people's heads.
Deledio has been a lot more impactful in his position compared to Martin this year, but again, I wouldn't have cared if he got the nod over Deledio either.
To say 'x player' is more deserving than 'y player' and absolutely disregarding the positions they play in is ignorant (not saying you are)
You cannot compare an apple to an orange, and I've actually made a case for JPK to be included in the side, so you have a rational Richmond fan here.

Replacing a player on the bench, though, is where the exact role of a player (i.e. inside vs. outside player) becomes largely irrelevant. History reflects this.

Had Deledio been named HFF, then clearly JPK would likely have no chance of usurping him there, as JPK didn't play HFF. But since Deledio was named on the bench, it seems logical that he could be replaced by JPK as the selectors didn't (and have never) declared that the midfield spots on the bench are allocated based on particular traits.

In the case of midfielders, it has never been seen as common knowledge or logic that a balance of inside and outside players must be struck on the bench. Ever. The only thing one can gather in observing past AA teams is that generally midfielders make up a majority, or all, of the bench. There has been absolutely no pattern of a certain number of inside or outside players picked on the bench. None whatsoever. This is why JPK could easily replace Deledio on the bench, and why it wouldn't be nonsensical in the slightest to do it.

Back to the "historical" part - the 'team-balance' argument is bullshit. Here's why:

2010 bench: Jamar, Pendlebury, Judd, S. Johnson
2011 bench: Petrie, Dal Santo, Kelly, Boyd
2012 bench: Deledio, Swan, Pendlebury, JPK
2013 bench: Boak, Hannebery, Watson, Mackie
2014 bench: Lewis, Pendlebury, Boak, Rockliff

2010 had 1 clear "outside" midfielder/flanker. 2011 and 2012 had two each, I would say. 2013 arguably had none. 2014 had maybe 1 in Lewis.

See the correlation? Neither do I.

 

[t_bond_legend]

Replacing a player on the bench, though, is where the exact role of a player (i.e. inside vs. outside player) becomes largely irrelevant. History reflects this.

Had Deledio been named HFF, then clearly JPK would likely have no chance of usurping him there, as JPK didn't play HFF. But since Deledio was named on the bench, it seems logical that he could be replaced by JPK as the selectors didn't (and have never) declared that the midfield spots on the bench are allocated based on particular traits.

In the case of midfielders, it has never been seen as common knowledge or logic that a balance of inside and outside players must be struck on the bench. Ever. The only thing one can gather in observing past AA teams is that generally midfielders make up a majority, or all, of the bench. There has been absolutely no pattern of a certain number of inside or outside players picked on the bench. None whatsoever. This is why JPK could easily replace Deledio on the bench, and why it wouldn't be nonsensical in the slightest to do it.

Ok I'll say this one last time.
Yes, JPK deserving of AA. Yes, wouldn't mind if he got the nod over Lids. What I'm saying, and I'm not sure if you read my post correctly, but I think that the selectors went with Lids/Gray on the bench as they have had excellent seasons as high HF's of the competition for 2015, and were next in line after Wingard and supposedly, Rioli. Mitchell/Mundy were perceived to be next best for inside/contested ball winners, judged by the selectors. So I'm saying, if JPK was to be slotted in, I highly doubt that it would have been for Deledio.
Nomsayin'???

 

[PendlePie]

Ok I'll say this one last time.
Yes, JPK deserving of AA. Yes, wouldn't mind if he got the nod over Lids. What I'm saying, and I'm not sure if you read my post correctly, but I think that the selectors went with Lids/Gray on the bench as they have had excellent seasons as high HF's of the competition for 2015, and were next in line after Wingard and supposedly, Rioli. Mitchell/Mundy were perceived to be next best for inside/contested ball winners, judged by the selectors. So I'm saying, if JPK was to be slotted in, I highly doubt that it would have been for Deledio.
Nomsayin'???

I understand you're implication that the selectors potentially slotted the next HFF in line as opposed to another contested player.

What I'm saying is the AA side has a history of putting the next best players (usually midfielders) in on the bench.

On the basis the AA team and how it has been historically picked (see my edit in my previous post), JPK should've made the team over Deledio as he had the better year. Simple.

If the selectors did indeed act as you hypothesised - well then that's something they clearly haven't done before, and I find it hard to believe they'd randomly do it now.

 

[t_bond_legend]

I understand you're implication that the selectors potentially slotted the next HFF in line as opposed to another contested player.

What I'm saying is the AA side has a history of putting the next best players (usually midfielders) in on the bench.

On the basis the AA team and how it has been historically picked (see my edit in my previous post), JPK should've made the team over Deledio as he had the better year. Simple.

If the selectors did indeed act as you hypothesised - well then that's something they clearly haven't done before, and I find it hard to believe they'd randomly do it now.

Yeah, it's a good change instead of being stacked with mids.
Well, 2 inside mids/contested ball winners in Mitchell/Mundy and 2 goal kicking playmakers in Deledio/Gray. Seems like that was the thought process this year; versatility in the team.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

How can you compare JPK to Lids/Gray when they are different players?

Because Kennedy could have been picked on the bench, inviting a discussion about whether he was more deserving than the other players picked there.

The fact they are not identical players doesn't invalidate that discussion.

You cannot compare an apple to an orange, and I've actually made a case for JPK to be included in the side, so you have a rational Richmond fan here.

Kennedy and Deledio aren't apples and oranges.

If it was Deledio vs a ruckman, you could say apples and oranges. But Kennedy and Deledio are both essentially midfielders, even though they play different styles. So you can't just veto any comparison.

Yeah, it's a good change instead of being stacked with mids.
Well, 2 inside mids/contested ball winners in Mitchell/Mundy and 2 goal kicking playmakers in Deledio/Gray. Seems like that was the thought process this year; versatility in the team.

But it's still four mids.

If versatility is the name of the game, why not pick another ruckman or another defender?

 

[PendlePie]

Seems like that was the thought process this year; versatility in the team.

In that case, the bench should require the inclusion of a defender, a forward, a midfielder and a ruckman or second midfielder

 

[t_bond_legend]

In that case, the bench should require the inclusion of a defender, a forward, a midfielder and a ruckman or second midfielder

Entirely agree with you, although I highly doubt that it'll be the case in the future. Defender/Midfielder/Forward/Ruckman would be ideal as bench spots for next best in line.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

In a grand final and still melting over Richmond AA selections. Gotta love West Coast fans.

I noticed you've all stopped whinging about the Alex Rance selection. KB and the panel were 100% justified in picking him over McKenzie.

Deledio and Riewoldt are both deserving, just like Rance last year (and this year now too)

 

[Forward Press]

In a grand final and still melting over Richmond AA selections. Gotta love West Coast fans.

I noticed you've all stopped whinging about the Alex Rance selection. KB and the panel were 100% justified in picking him over McKenzie.

Deledio and Riewoldt are both deserving, just like Rance last year (and this year now too)

It's only been one fan.

I'm closing this thread because it's now 6000 posts and going absolutely nowhere.

Bring on 2016.