Are Collingwood a flag threat?

[NathanMX]

I just want to see his talent

Only 27 next year so got a few good years to show his wares, I am sure he will, some players have no luck though, but if people like Daniel Menzel can come back from 3-4 knee reconstructions I am pretty sure Reid will get himself back

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

No I never said anything like that but seeings as they are about 10th on the ladder it would make him Lonergan and Rivers s**t from way of thinking.

You were implying it though, and clearly they aren't s**t, they're just playing in a mediocre side like mackenzie glass and brown were in 2013, which just reinforces my previous point. That was all irrelevant anyway, you just changed the subject to that

 

[Seedsfan]

Definitely, but when the ball comes in the defensive 50 more often, the opposition has more chance to score goals, not to mention the fact that all players have bad games, and not like 4 goals against a s**t team is anything to brag about anyway? I like how you've turned this whole discussion from ben reid's ability as a forward, and the fact he's hardly played as one, and played twice against top 8 teams while doing so, into a way to talk down about west coast's defenders.

You were the only one who talked them down I always rated Mckenzie but you assured me that Reid only kick goals against s**t opponents and as you would have seen more of McKenzie I am just acknowledging what you have told me.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

You were the only one who talked them down I always rated Mckenzie but you assured me that Reid only kick goals against s**t opponents and as you would have seen more of McKenzie I am just acknowledging what you have told me.

I didn't talk mackenzie glass or brown down, i talked the wce team of 2013 down, why are you trying to put words in my mouth? I never said "reid only kicks goals against s**t opponents" either, i said most of the teams he HAS kicked goals against were s**t teams, that's not to say he can't kick goals against better teams, it's just that he hasn't yet.

Seeing as you keep ignoring the original point, based on 8 games against mainly s**t opposition, averaging 3 goals a game, you really think that proves reid is a better forward than darling?

 

[Seedsfan]

You were implying it though, and clearly they aren't s**t, they're just playing in a mediocre side like mackenzie glass and brown were in 2013, which just reinforces my previous point. That was all irrelevant anyway, you just changed the subject to that

No I never implied that, I was mearly following your logic that the quality of a key defenders is tied to where a team finishes on the ladder. The fact a quality forward like Kennedy kicked 6 on Taylor does not make him s**t

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

No I never implied that, I was mearly following your logic that the quality of a key defenders is tied to where a team finishes on the ladder. The fact a quality forward like Kennedy kicked 6 on Taylor does not make him s**t

Please show me where my logic illustrated that quality of a key defender is tied to where a team finishes on the ladder.
You're literally just making up s**t now, you've realised the futility of your argument and now you're desperately looking for a way to distract from that fact by bringing up a series of irrelevant points and claiming i said things that i didn't.

 

[Kappa]

How did this thread get to 27 pages... we are only a 50/50 chance to make finals, of course we aren't a flag threat.

 

[Seedsfan]

I didn't talk mackenzie glass or brown down, i talked the wce team of 2013 down, why are you trying to put words in my mouth? I never said "reid only kicks goals against s**t opponents" either, i said most of the teams he HAS kicked goals against were s**t teams, that's not to say he can't kick goals against better teams, it's just that he hasn't yet.

Seeing as you keep ignoring the original point, based on 8 games against mainly s**t opposition, averaging 3 goals a game, you really think that makes darling a better forward than darling?

That post I making me question your intelligence. Your argument is floored as one can not arbitrarily decide the strength of there direct opposition (key defenders) based of ladder position. You effort to try and dismiss Reid's performance is pointless, as he has demonstrated at both ends of the ground he reads the play well and is a very strong contested mark. Couple that with the fact he is a good shot on goal I have no reason to doubt that at full fitness he will be at least the equal of Darling. My main concern with Reid is will he ever be able to get back to that level of fitness

 

[Seedsfan]

Please show me where my logic illustrated that quality of a key defender is tied to where a team finishes on the ladder.
You're literally just making up s**t now, you've realised the futility of your argument and now you're desperately looking for a way to distract from that fact by bringing up a series of irrelevant points and claiming i said things that i didn't.

Hahaha spare me, you bring up where teams finished on the ladder and say he kicks his goals against s**t opposition. Answer me this who is a key forwards opposition?

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

That post I making me question your intelligence. Your argument is floored as one can not arbitrarily decide the strength of there direct opposition (key defenders) based of ladder position. You effort to try and dismiss Reid's performance is pointless, as he has demonstrated at both ends of the ground he reads the play well and is a very strong contested mark. Couple that with the fact he is a good shot on goal I have no reason to doubt that at full fitness he will be at least the equal of Darling. My main concern with Reid is will he ever be able to get back to that level of fitness

Now you know how i have felt this entire argument, this is literally going over your head, i am agreeing with you that the strength of key defenders is completely irrelevant to ladder position, why do you keep mentioning that, do you have any reading comprehension skills?

I'm not dismissing Reid's performance, if you actually take in what i have been saying, i'm just putting it into perspective. I'm not saying he's no good, i'm not saying he can't kick goals against quality teams, all i'm saying is you can't even remotely think that he is a "far better" forward than darling based on an 8 game sample, of which 2 games were against top 8 sides. How can you not understand that? He might come back this season and absolutely dominate, turning out to be one of the best key forwards in the comp, but until he does, all he has done is given an 8 game tease, which, to be fair, is sweet f*ck all. As it stands, Darling has shown much more as a forward, and at 23 is only going to get better and better, and Reid is 26 and has struggled to play full seasons, and has only really dipped his toes into the forward line. End of.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Hahaha spare me, you bring up where teams finished on the ladder and say he kicks his goals against s**t opposition. Answer me this who is a key forwards opposition?

Nah i won't spare you, you made the claim so back it up. Obviously it's a key defender? Pretty stupid question really, you're trying to imply that regardless of a teams position on the ladder, that a key defender should hold the same dominance over a key forward in a poorly ranked team, as they would in a highly ranked team, which is clearly not true. A good team is going to allow the ball to enter defensive 50 far less than a s**t team, relieving the pressure on the key defender, as well as providing better backup to the key defender when the ball does enter the defensive 50, all in all making his job of stopping the key forward kicking goals easier. A s**t team will allow the ball to enter defensive 50 more often, giving the key forward more opportunity to kick goals regardless of the quality of the key defender, as well as the fact they won't be able to backup the key defender as well as a good side could. Example being harry taylor, one of the best defenders in the comp, yet he is playing in a mediocre side this year, and as a consequence of that, kennedy kicked 6 goals on him. Pretty simple really.

 

[Seedsfan]

Now you know how i have felt this entire argument, this is literally going over your head, i am agreeing with you that the strength of key defenders is completely irrelevant to ladder position, why do you keep mentioning that, do you have any reading comprehension skills?

I'm not dismissing Reid's performance, if you actually take in what i have been saying, i'm just putting it into perspective. I'm not saying he's no good, i'm not saying he can't kick goals against quality teams, all i'm saying is you can't even remotely think that he is a "far better" forward than darling based on an 8 game sample, of which 2 games were against top 8 sides. How can you not understand that? He might come back this season and absolutely dominate, turning out to be one of the best key forwards in the comp, but until he does, all he has done is given an 8 game tease, which, to be fair, is sweet f*ck all. As it stands, Darling has shown much more as a forward, and at 23 is only going to get better and better, and Reid is 26 and has struggled to play full seasons, and has only really dipped his toes into the forward line. End of.

Oh boy I could have a more intelligent conversation with my dog than you.
You realise I never quoted you as saying he can't kick goals against good sides you just want to believe that. Why is it ties to ladder position is because that is what you wanted, you wanted to drag out the finishing position of teams to try and say all he achieved was kicking goals against bad teams (strongly implying he is playing on a bad opponents). His ability as a forward however is not determined by those games but by transferable traits from playing in defence.

As a defender he would often play off his read the play backing that he would get to were the ball was going first and take a mark. Both the ability to take a contested mark and read the play will hold him in great stead as a forward. Yes he may never get back to full fitness we will never know. I know Darling was injured this year but if you look at the stats he is not improving From 2011.

 

[Seedsfan]

Nah i won't spare you, you made the claim so back it up. Obviously it's a key defender? Pretty stupid question really, you're trying to imply that regardless of a teams position on the ladder, that a key defender should hold the same dominance over a key forward in a poorly ranked team, as they would in a highly ranked team, which is clearly not true. A good team is going to allow the ball to enter defensive 50 far less than a s**t team, relieving the pressure on the key defender, as well as providing better backup to the key defender when the ball does enter the defensive 50, all in all making his job of stopping the key forward kicking goals easier. A s**t team will allow the ball to enter defensive 50 more often, giving the key forward more opportunity to kick goals regardless of the quality of the key defender, as well as the fact they won't be able to backup the key defender as well as a good side could. Example being harry taylor, one of the best defenders in the comp, yet he is playing in a mediocre side this year, and as a consequence of that, kennedy kicked 6 goals on him. Pretty simple really.

Yes but a good defender should win there one on ones. Collingwood is not a great side this year but we have to good key defenders who have not let anyone kick 5 against us this year (McCarthy kicked 4 once) If you were to kick a bag on Nathan Brown it would be considered a very good game by anyone in the comp. The fact that our mids are not as good as others or at the moment our forward line is weak would not discredit the players performance.
The only key difference between playing on a good player in a good side to a good player in a lesser side is all mental

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Oh boy I could have a more intelligent conversation with my dog than you.
You realise I never quoted you as saying he can't kick goals against good sides you just want to believe that. Why is it ties to ladder position is because that is what you wanted, you wanted to drag out the finishing position of teams to try and say all he achieved was kicking goals against bad teams (strongly implying he is playing on a bad opponents). His ability as a forward however is not determined by those games but by transferable traits from playing in defence.

As a defender he would often play off his read the play backing that he would get to were the ball was going first and take a mark. Both the ability to take a contested mark and read the play will hold him in great stead as a forward. Yes he may never get back to full fitness we will never know. I know Darling was injured this year but if you look at the stats he is not improving From 2011.

Then why are you telling me i am dismissing Reid? It's called perspective mate, clearly something you're not familiar with.

Yeah i made ladder position relevant when we were talking about how many goals reid kicked, i never once linked quality of key defender to ladder position because key defenders were never the topic of discussion, you just shoved it in there to take a stab at mackenzie and co. despite it being irrelevant. Ladder position is relevant when talking about how many goals someone kicked, because in general, you will kick more goals against lowly ranked opposition than you will against highly ranked opposition, that is true for just about anyone. The fact is, reid kicked a solid haul of goals in 8 games against low ranked opposition, 4 goals against 8th, and 2 against 4th. I never implied at all that bad teams = bad direct opponents (key defenders) because i'm not stupid enough to assume that because a key defender had a bag of goals kicked on him, that it makes him a bad player. Like i explained, geelongs mediocrity this year gave kennedy the opportunity to kick a bag, despite playing on harry taylor, and he ended with 6 goals. That doesn't mean Taylor isn't one of the best defenders going, it means playing in an average team made it harder to stop kennedy.

The main redeeming quality of a key forward is kicking goals, which reid has done, albeit against lowly ranked opposition. His credentials in the backline are irrelevant, sure he might be a good mark, etc. whatever, but 8 games as a forward isn't enough to prove he is as good a forward as darling, let alone "far better" which is what you originally said.

If you look at the stats, he has kicked 14 goals in 6 games returning from a stress fracture in his foot, and if you exclude collingwood, a team which for whatever reason he can't seem to kick goals against, thats 14 goals in 5 games which is very decent for a 23 year old key forward, especially one who is nowhere near peak fitness yet, and against better opposition than the teams reid kicked goals against. Ask anyone who isn't a collingwood supporter who they would prefer in their forwardline, and i'm sure more than 90% will say jack darling.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Yes but a good defender should win there one on ones. Collingwood is not a great side this year but we have to good key defenders who have not let anyone kick 5 against us this year (McCarthy kicked 4 once) If you were to kick a bag on Nathan Brown it would be considered a very good game by anyone in the comp. The fact that our mids are not as good as others or at the moment our forward line is weak would not discredit the players performance.
The only key difference between playing on a good player in a good side to a good player in a lesser side is all mental

A good defender will win majority of one on ones, that's right. But when a good defender is playing in a lesser team, there will be more opportunity for the forward to win the one on ones, generally leading to more goals than against a key defender in a good side. Why can't you grasp this concept?

 

[Seedsfan]

Then why are you telling me i am dismissing Reid? It's called perspective mate, clearly something you're not familiar with.

Yeah i made ladder position relevant when we were talking about how many goals reid kicked, i never once linked quality of key defender to ladder position because key defenders were never the topic of discussion, you just shoved it in there to take a stab at mackenzie and co. despite it being irrelevant. Ladder position is relevant when talking about how many goals someone kicked, because in general, you will kick more goals against lowly ranked opposition than you will against highly ranked opposition, that is true for just about anyone. The fact is, reid kicked a solid haul of goals in 8 games against low ranked opposition, 4 goals against 8th, and 2 against 4th. I never implied at all that bad teams = bad direct opponents (key defenders) because i'm not stupid enough to assume that because a key defender had a bag of goals kicked on him, that it makes him a bad player. Like i explained, geelongs mediocrity this year gave kennedy the opportunity to kick a bag, despite playing on harry taylor, and he ended with 6 goals. That doesn't mean Taylor isn't one of the best defenders going, it means playing in an average team made it harder to stop kennedy.

The main redeeming quality of a key forward is kicking goals, which reid has done, albeit against lowly ranked opposition. His credentials in the backline are irrelevant, sure he might be a good mark, etc. whatever, but 8 games as a forward isn't enough to prove he is as good a forward as darling, let alone "far better" which is what you originally said.

If you look at the stats, he has kicked 14 goals in 6 games returning from a stress fracture in his foot, and if you exclude collingwood, a team which for whatever reason he can't seem to kick goals against, thats 14 goals in 5 games which is very decent for a 23 year old key forward, especially one who is nowhere near peak fitness yet, and against better opposition than the teams reid kicked goals against. Ask anyone who isn't a collingwood supporter who they would prefer in their forwardline, and i'm sure more than 90% will say jack darling.

Sorry I can not take you seriously I said Reid is a better player. That can not be disputed by the time Reid was Darlings age he was a Premiership and All Australian player. Darling's achieved neither, yes he has kicked more goals but a lot of that is due to the fact he has spent more time forward. Reid has all the attributes to be an elite forward. He has shown that in all be it a short stint in 2013 before breaking down. You have a fixation with the quote far better you seem to think that relates solely to him as a forward opposed to a player in general. Not sure why you think someone's ability to take a contested mark is irrelevant? Defenders who primarily spoil will never be a forward as they to not have a great ability to mark. Reid is not that type of player.

I love the fact that you deduct the Collingwood game from his tally to make his stats look stronger. His stats have gone backwards the 2 years after. There is no disputing he is a quality player but I am confident if given the opportunity Reid would be at least his equal as a forward. Even if you are right and Darling proves to be a bit better forward Reid would still be the better player.

 

[Seedsfan]

A good defender will win majority of one on ones, that's right. But when a good defender is playing in a lesser team, there will be more opportunity for the forward to win the one on ones, generally leading to more goals than against a key defender in a good side. Why can't you grasp this concept?

And to kick goals against a good key defender you have to be a good forward. Jesse White does not kick bags against anyone good or bad as he is not a good forward

I am sick of having this argument with you with each post it grows more evident that we won't agree so let's just go our separate ways and agree to disagree

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

3 goals against brisbane - 12th
4 goals against carlton - 8th
2 goals against adelaide - 11th
2 goals against GWS - 18th
3 goals against essendon - 9th
2 goals against sydney - 4th
4 goals against west coast - 13th
5 goals against north melbourne - 10th

There were also likely games he scored 0 goals playing in the forward line, but for the sake of convenience we will ignore that, so he averaged 3 goals a game against 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 18th. Hardly impressive at all.

For some of the above games Reid was swung forward, often after half time. In some ways you could say it was a surprise move which clubs weren't ready for, so the match ups wernt right, in another way you could say that Reid often played less then a half of the game forward so the Eight games you talk about could actually be described as less than that. He might have kicked those goals in the equlvilent of 5 games. I don't think statistically you can make an argument about Reid and I can't remember him playing forward and not kicking a goal although I can't rule it out. I agree the amount of games he played forward was far from significant. If you want to continue to talk about him you need to go back and watch the games he played forward in.
For the rest of your argument I mostly agree. Darling has the runs on the board as a forward while Reid doesn't. I will say that with a fully fit Reid he has a lot of potential as a forward. I also rate both Darling and LeCras as players.

P.S Carlton finished 6th that year and Essendon had 14 wins and 8 losses and only finished 9th due to infractions. That means that the spread of teams is much more even than your making out. My advise would be to stop trying to use stats to win arguments, you are struggling in this department.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

For some of the above games Reid was swung forward, often after half time. In some ways you could say it was a surprise move which clubs weren't ready for, so the match ups wernt right, in another way you could say that Reid often played less then a half of the game forward so the Eight games you talk about could actually be described as less than that. He might have kicked those goals in the equlvilent of 5 games. I don't think statistically you can make an argument about Reid and I can't remember him playing forward and not kicking a goal although I can't rule it out. I agree the amount of games he played forward was far from significant. If you want to continue to talk about him you need to go back and watch the games he played forward in.
For the rest of your argument I mostly agree. Darling has the runs on the board as a forward while Reid doesn't. I will say that with a fully fit Reid he has a lot of potential as a forward. I also rate both Darling and LeCras as players.

P.S Carlton finished 6th that year and Essendon had 14 wins and 8 losses and only finished 9th due to infractions. That means that the spread of teams is much more even than your making out. My advise would be to stop trying to use stats to win arguments, you are struggling in this department.

Yep you're right about all that, but we don't say lecras averages 3 goals a game simply because he plays a third or more of the time in the middle. As it stands he had a good little run as a forward, but nowhere near enough to be making calls about his overall quality/consistency as a forward, nor enough to compare him to someone who has proven to be a quality forward for 90 odd games. He does have a lot of potential as a forward, sure, but until it happens it's just potential, something many players are never able to utilise, so we will wait and see.

Granted i may have forgotten about the essendon thing, but the rest you got wrong anyway so don't question the validity of the rest of the stats i used, carlton finished 8th and port 7th, on 44 and 48 points respectively once essendon were booted, while collingwood finished 6th, and would've done so regardless of if essendon were booted or not because their percentage was 8% higher and they had the same points, 56, so really essendon should have been 7th, and carlton 9th, so it's just a straight swap, instead of 4 goals against 8th and 3 against 9th it was 3 against 7th and 4 against 9th

Effectively that means it was:
3 goals against brisbane - 12th
4 goals against carlton - 9th
2 goals against adelaide - 11th
2 goals against GWS - 18th
3 goals against essendon - 7th
2 goals against sydney - 4th
4 goals against west coast - 13th
5 goals against north melbourne - 10th

My advise would be check your facts before you try and correct me on mine

 

[i am a logo]

Collingwood (and Geelong) have replaced West Coast and Adelaide as the league's premier flat track bullies.

Also the last couple of pages have just been the same 2 or 3 posters going around in circles.

 

[MarkT2]

Some interesting stuff in here.
There are two categories of people who would take a fully fit Darling over a fully fit Ben Reid:
Delusional WCE fans, and;
paid Carlton recruiters.

Reid is an AA CHB who's coach wants to play forward because he thinks he is better value there. In the limited time he been able to play forward he has been as successful as most forwards in the comp. He was actually drafted as a forward but moved back because the list he was part of has other key forward options but lacked quality key backs. That turned out to be a premiership list in the year he moved into the senior side backline.

Darling is no mug but he does play in a very good multi pronged forward line.

In time darling may be a long term consistent forward but he isn't that yet. Reid may never play another senior game. Given a full pre season and injury free year my money would be on Reid forward or back to be around AA quality. I'm not sure Darling is that good.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Yep you're right about all that, but we don't say lecras averages 3 goals a game simply because he plays a third or more of the time in the middle. As it stands he had a good little run as a forward, but nowhere near enough to be making calls about his overall quality/consistency as a forward, nor enough to compare him to someone who has proven to be a quality forward for 90 odd games. He does have a lot of potential as a forward, sure, but until it happens it's just potential, something many players are never able to utilise, so we will wait and see.

Granted i may have forgotten about the essendon thing, but the rest you got wrong anyway so don't question the validity of the rest of the stats i used, carlton finished 8th and port 7th, on 44 and 48 points respectively once essendon were booted, while collingwood finished 6th, and would've done so regardless of if essendon were booted or not because their percentage was 8% higher and they had the same points, 56, so really essendon should have been 7th, and carlton 9th, so it's just a straight swap, instead of 4 goals against 8th and 3 against 9th it was 3 against 7th and 4 against 9th

Effectively that means it was:
3 goals against brisbane - 12th
4 goals against carlton - 9th
2 goals against adelaide - 11th
2 goals against GWS - 18th
3 goals against essendon - 7th
2 goals against sydney - 4th
4 goals against west coast - 13th
5 goals against north melbourne - 10th

My advise would be check your facts before you try and correct me on mine

Carlton beat Richmond in a final so finished 6th. I do check my facts.

 

[xown]

Yup

 

[PieLebo87]

Yup

You're just being a w***er for no reason.

Why are people allowed to bump crappy threads started by opposition supporters with trolling comments and mods do nothing?

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

pies play brave footy