Mega Thread All things Tony Abbott

[Run n Spread]

market forces only really work where there is competition. I can't speak for the rest of Oz but the deregulation and splitting on the power corp here in WA has been a failure as they split the company by operations (infrastructure, retail, wholesale).

To fix this F up they will merge the entities together again and then split the businesses vertically meaning there will be competition across each operation.

Stuffed Melbourne/Victoria royally as well. I don't even see how a market situation is really applicable here anyway as there is only 1 grid/very few and one major way of operating an asset like a Power Grid. It needs to go to everyone and it is not as if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just set up shop and divvy up the power.

So the governemtn proxy run it anyway through major contracts (Jobs for the Boys). Kennet back in the 90s really got this one wrong. Major assets that people depend on as part of a singular or few networks should rarely be privatised.

 

[Run n Spread]

Go to any country who has invested highly in wind or solar and the emissions reductions are similar to the amount of renewables installed.

That's the problem. We really haven't begun investing into renewables as a functioning way to generate power. Considering the wind, sun, uranium we have at our disposal while we're relying on unrenewables we are camping out waiting for a crash/the s**t to hit the fan.

Sure individuals can do their own thing or cancels run co-ops etc but the power they don't use and can store (marginal at this rate) just goes back into the grid anyway. And some people really are screwed out of rebates they should be getting when it comes to calculating what is what.

Putting a few solar panels and wind towers up will do fu&^all but generate a new power network that can properly store and distribute the juice and Australia can easily be a world leader.

We are a harsh, unforgiving, brutal land but there are goodies and things that can be utilised by thinking strategically. Something the government isn't doing. Start now and we start behind the 8 ball as the Mining Boom has well and truly been wasted.

 

[Power Raid]

People who make decisions over capital are motivated by profit. Hence the price signal.

By real change at the top are you referring to the major resource companies that are betting on the world not getting it's act together?

Some custodians of capital are motivated solely by profit, but they are usually just the cowboys who come into any industry and have a short term mentality.

Real custodians of capital seek preservation of capital, seek stability, a long term benefit and certainty. The best way to achieve this would have been a quota trading desk rather than a tax but that would have worked quickly, simply, with certainty etc but it would not have been politically exciting.

in regards to real change at the top, I was referring to people who run organisations that make positive change. You don't get to the top of these organisations by being negative. They are motivated by success and positive signals.

In regards to resource companies, they will benefit no matter which energy mix is chosen as they all require commodities. So don't get too excited by a conspiracy.

 

[Maggie5]

market forces only really work where there is real competition.

That why I question the continual use of the words 'market forces'.
I did think of an area where there would be a return to the consumer as a result of the carbon tax repeal and that was local council rates.
Will be interesting when we receive our next rates notice.

 

[Footy Smarts]

you're on the wrong tangent

When we add wind and solar do we reduce our emissions intensity?

 

[Eagle87]

For some people economics is more a quasi religious than an academic pursuit.

Indeed. But Henry isn't too bad

 

[Contra Mundum]

Grin have I got great book for you:
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02095-4.html

BTW Ken Henry is a disinterested patriot who is only interested in the advancement of Australia

 

[GuruJane]

LOLZ.
20 years with 2 professional accounting bodies eh.
LOLZ.

Which 2 professional accounting bodies did you help with their submission?

ooi, Number, what's your expertise in tax area to be posting categorical/definitive comments here about the Henry Review?

 

[Eagle87]

Grin have I got great book for you:
http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-02095-4.html

BTW Ken Henry is a disinterested patriot who is only interested in the advancement of Australia

Who, like everyone else, struggles to check some biases at the door.

 

[Play by Numbers]

yep that's it

nothing to do with the issues highlighted for years and years that have come home to roost.

can you pass the drugs you are using? they are clearing top shelf.

You were wrong about the carbon tax.

 

[Power Raid]

You were wrong about the carbon tax.

Well we differ in opinion.

why?

1) if the carbon tax was "effective" because of price, then what % of the price increase was due to the tax vs the price increase of coal or gas?

2) Now is it sensible to have a flip flop negative tax that drains capital from the markets that would otherwise be deployed in the positive transition. is it sensible to have a negative tax that does not achieve the goal?

3) you whinge that the energy sector has been poorly managed and this attests to the fact that the tax has created uncertainty and poor investment decisions.



or would it have been far more sensible to have a quota desk which guarantees an outcome, creates a government asset that can be sold in the future and best of all creates a positive and certain outcome that then motivates decision makers?


or is that too sensible?

 

[Power Raid]

Stuffed Melbourne/Victoria royally as well. I don't even see how a market situation is really applicable here anyway as there is only 1 grid/very few and one major way of operating an asset like a Power Grid. It needs to go to everyone and it is not as if any Tom, Dick or Harry can just set up shop and divvy up the power.

So the governemtn proxy run it anyway through major contracts (Jobs for the Boys). Kennet back in the 90s really got this one wrong. Major assets that people depend on as part of a singular or few networks should rarely be privatised.

yep no doubt a lot of these privatisations were done poorly but unfortunately out of necessity.

Imagine how political this issue would be if it wasn't? It is already political but at least the operating vehicles aren't.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Well we differ in opinion.

why?

1) if the carbon tax was "effective" because of price, then what % of the price increase was due to the tax vs the price increase of coal or gas?

2) Now is it sensible to have a flip flop negative tax that drains capital from the markets that would otherwise be deployed in the positive transition. is it sensible to have a negative tax that does not achieve the goal?

3) you whinge that the energy sector has been poorly managed and this attests to the fact that the tax has created uncertainty and poor investment decisions.



or would it have been far more sensible to have a quota desk which guarantees an outcome, creates a government asset that can be sold in the future and best of all creates a positive and certain outcome that then motivates decision makers?


or is that too sensible?

The price increase for electricity was due to gold plating, commodities prices have decreased.

Yes, "negative" and positive seem to be your latest buzz terms. The tax was effective in decreasing emissions, it also helped fund research and kickstart a budding renewables sector.

Mismanagement in the energy sector has nothing to do with the tax, nor does uncertainty.

 

[Power Raid]

The price increase for electricity was due to gold plating, commodities prices have decreased.

Yes, "negative" and positive seem to be your latest buzz terms. The tax was effective in decreasing emissions, it also helped fund research and kickstart a budding renewables sector.

Mismanagement in the energy sector has nothing to do with the tax, nor does uncertainty.

lol

when did commodities start to increase? when did they start to decrease? and when did they reach their peak?

now compare that to you graph

 

[Play by Numbers]

lol

when did commodities start to increase? when did they start to decrease? and when did they reach their peak?

now compare that to you graph

wut

 

[Power Raid]

The price increase for electricity was due to gold plating, commodities prices have decreased.

Yes, "negative" and positive seem to be your latest buzz terms. The tax was effective in decreasing emissions, it also helped fund research and kickstart a budding renewables sector.

Mismanagement in the energy sector has nothing to do with the tax, nor does uncertainty.

you could look at positive and negative as a buzz word if you like but are you a person who is motivated by the carrot or the stick?

I bet you prefer to be motivated by the fear of failure rather than the feeling of success. correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Play by Numbers]

you could look at positive and negative as a buzz word if you like but are you a person who is motivated by the carrot or the stick?

I bet you prefer to be motivated by the fear of failure rather than the feeling of success. correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not a dichotomy, people can be motivated by either or and other.

 

[Power Raid]

wut

when did commodity price start to increase, peak and decrease

you made a claim, now go back and apply your claim to the facts

 

[Power Raid]

It's not a dichotomy, people can be motivated by either or and other.

so which do you find brings out your best?

 

[Play by Numbers]

when did commodity price start to increase, peak and decrease

you made a claim, now go back and apply your claim to the facts

No, you made the claim that commodity prices caused the increase in cost, I disagreed. I have provided reams of evidence before on the factors that have driven the rise in pricing.

Commodity prices for coal have fallen, partly on the back on sinking oil prices, partly due to a deflating of the price bubble, electricity prices have not fallen to a similar proportion. There is no linear relationship, if you believe there is and disagree with the research on the effects of failed privatisation, gold plating and corporate overhead on cost, then by all means, refute it.

I am also yet to see any evidence that the carbon tax has been the current cause of increased business uncertainty and that that has impacted the economy

 

[Play by Numbers]

so which do you find brings out your best?

All, depending on the situation.

There is no one answer for what motivates people, nor how effective your two stated motivations are. Arguably the greatest ever footballer, Leigh Matthews was driven by fear of failure. As was Carey.

 

[Gough]

I'd suggest the fall in coal prices is also due to the market expressing doubts about it's future, doing it's magic, as it where.

 

[Power Raid]

No, you made the claim that commodity prices caused the increase in cost, I disagreed. I have provided reams of evidence before on the factors that have driven the rise in pricing.

Commodity prices for coal have fallen, partly on the back on sinking oil prices, partly due to a deflating of the price bubble, electricity prices have not fallen to a similar proportion. There is no linear relationship, if you believe there is and disagree with the research on the effects of failed privatisation, gold plating and corporate overhead on cost, then by all means, refute it.

I am also yet to see any evidence that the carbon tax has been the current cause of increased business uncertainty and that that has impacted the economy

business leaving Australia and the de-industrialisation in part due to having one of the highest cost energy attest to the business uncertainty. The tax created a situation where poor investment decisions were made including gold plating resulting in higher and higher energy costs.

in regards to the commodity prices without looking I would suggest the commodities started increasing in 2003 and peaked in late 2007, followed by another peak in around 2012 and decreased in 2014. The effect of the commodity price would have eclipsed the tax. do you not agree?


I personally think you simply fear your kick backs will be taken away. it is not about the environment and it is not about the economy for you. rather it is about free s**t and the politics.

otherwise you would be in favour of a positive and stable policy that guarantees a result with no tax, no subsidies and let's the best "man" win ensuring the lowest price.

 

[Power Raid]

I'd suggest the fall in coal prices is also due to the market expressing doubts about it's future, doing it's magic, as it where.

I wish your comment was true as I would like to see the world move away from coal but we will use more coal in 2050 than today. So unfortunately no.

 

[Play by Numbers]

business leaving Australia and the de-industrialisation in part due to having one of the highest cost energy attest to the business uncertainty. The tax created a situation where poor investment decisions were made including gold plating resulting in higher and higher energy costs.

in regards to the commodity prices without looking I would suggest the commodities started increasing in 2003 and peaked in late 2007, followed by another peak in around 2012 and decreased in 2014. The effect of the commodity price would have eclipsed the tax. do you not agree?


I personally think you simply fear your kick backs will be taken away. it is not about the environment and it is not about the economy for you. rather it is about free s**t and the politics.

otherwise you would be in favour of a positive and stable policy that guarantees a result with no tax, no subsidies and let's the best "man" win ensuring the lowest price.

The first is a lie. The failure of privatisation began before the tax, I am also yet to see mal investment attributed to the tax. The slowdown has been by an large due to the commodities market.

The last is demented.