Begley On Downward Spiral

[Lefty]

James Begley's Average Disposals Per Game & Number of Games Played Per Year

2000 St Kilda 7.6 from 5 Games
2001 St Kilda 12.2 from 13 games
2002 St Kilda 11.9 from 15 games
2003 Crows 15.1 from 12 games
2004 Crows 10.2 from 8 games
2005 Crows 6.0 from 5 games

Seems to me he's on a downward spiral into oblivion not only in terms of Average Disposals per game but also Number of Games played per year.

Interestingly his average disposals per game peaked in 2003 and his number of games played per year peaked in 2002.

I know stats are the be all and end all.

But at age 24 it might be time to wave bye-bye to him permanently.

It's amazing that he still get's a game for the Crows given what I've seen of his performances this year.

Surely a rookie, any rookie, would be better than this guy ?

 

[GoSarge]

James Begley's Average Disposals Per Game & Number of Games Played Per Year

2000 St Kilda 7.6 from 5 Games
2001 St Kilda 12.2 from 13 games
2002 St Kilda 11.9 from 15 games
2003 Crows 15.1 from 12 games
2004 Crows 10.2 from 8 games
2005 Crows 6.0 from 5 games

Seems to me he's on a downward spiral into oblivion not only in terms of Average Disposals per game but also Number of Games played per year.

Interestingly his average disposals per game peaked in 2003 and his number of games played per year peaked in 2002.

I know stats are the be all and end all.

But at age 24 it might be time to wave bye-bye to him permanently.

It's amazing that he still get's a game for the Crows given what I've seen of his performances this year.

Surely a rookie, any rookie, would be better than this guy ?

I agree mate. Back to the SANFL and get some form. If he's good enough he will force his way back in to the team.

 

[Crowked]

I dont disagree with you.

However it would be interesting to know how much time he actually spent on the ground during his games in the past 2 seasons. He always seems to be warming to pine and its pretty hard to increase your ave disposals per game from there.

 

[tribey]

Begley and Massie should be already thinking about buying luggage, which is a shame because both had a fair bit of potential.

 

[arrowman]

I don't think "downward spiral" is a fair term to use, when all things (injury, time on the ground) are taken into account. However I do think he's under the pump to show his worth this year.

I agree with SANFL time for Begley. He's clearly not up to speed yet after his layoff.

I hope he makes it, I like the way he plays (when he's at his best).

 

[slappy]

this what you mean by downward spiral?

good riddance

 

[afc9798]

Begley and Massie should be already thinking about buying luggage, which is a shame because both had a fair bit of potential.

Agreed, both appear to be no better than defensive fill ins at best and at worst-list fillers. We need blokes at their age that can can come into the team and immediately fill a role. Both have talent, but for one reason or another just can't get it together regularly enough. Won't be the first or last blokes with talent to end up on the pile.

 

[outback jack]

Begley and Massie should be already thinking about buying luggage, which is a shame because both had a fair bit of potential.

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment. Dissapointing recruiting by the club torney, begley, massie all HBF's, Torney i rate but you dont trade a hard in and under midfielder for a HBF. Begley maybe has a little class, but neither can play in the middle and arent anything special for a HBF. I think ladhams might be helping them pack too

 

[Mong]

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment.

Yes and no. Obviously plenty of people thought so early on in his career. Wasn't he originally a top 5 draft pick? And he displayed good early form at Carlton.

By the time he came to the Crows though we knew he wasn't going to be a star and the fact we got him for Gallagher (edit: sorry Eccles) shows what Carlton thought of him by then. But you can't deny that he had a fine year in 2003 and showed what could have been.

A pretty similar story to Chris Ladhams really. Although I still think Ladhams is good enough to make it, as each week goes by time is running out fast for Lads.

 

[crowsarethebest]

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment. Dissapointing recruiting by the club torney, begley, massie all HBF's, Torney i rate but you dont trade a hard in and under midfielder for a HBF. Begley maybe has a little class, but neither can play in the middle and arent anything special for a HBF. I think ladhams might be helping them pack too

We traded eccles for massie.. and we won that trade.. we could've got fev but pagan got in the way ..

 

[outback jack]

We traded eccles for massie.. and we won that trade.. we could've got fev but pagan got in the way ..

i think both clubs lost

The club should learn and never trade for a HBF again unless he is real quality. And I dont think pagan was there was he? I think it was one yr b4. Eitherway it was us i think that offered fevola some ridiculously small amount of pay so he said no. I dont think fev would have turned out to be the player he is today under ayres to be honest. He needed pagan.

 

[Lefty]

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment. Dissapointing recruiting by the club torney, begley, massie all HBF's, Torney i rate but you dont trade a hard in and under midfielder for a HBF. Begley maybe has a little class, but neither can play in the middle and arent anything special for a HBF. I think ladhams might be helping them pack too

Torney does play that sweeping defensive role just as well as Stiffy.

Massie & Begley would have to be right at the top of the pile when talk of delisting rears it's head.

They are both average run-of-the-mill half back flankers with not much else to offer.

Ladhams is an unusal case in that his form, from what I've seen of SANFL games, has been good and yet no call up (to date that is).

I'd like to see both Ladhams & Jericho given a chance this year to see just what they can offer us at AFL level under the Neil Craig game plan.

 

[just maybe]

Begley is a highly skilled and damaging player when in form. He played well tall and small, before he got injured last season he was one of the best in our dysfunctional backline, provided a lot of run and precise kicking from the backlines.

 

[tribey]

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment.

He was a top 10 draft pick back in the day (#7, 1997). Poor comment indeed.

 

[outback jack]

He was a top 10 draft pick back in the day (#7, 1997). Poor comment indeed.

cupido was pick number 6 from memory. Means shi te all. We knew we were getting a slow HBF. IMO hes done the best he can but just doesnt thave it. NC hasnt given him a go at all though

 

[tribey]

cupido was pick number 6 from memory. Means shi te all. We knew we were getting a slow HBF. IMO hes done the best he can but just doesnt thave it. NC hasnt given him a go at all though

And Simon Black was pick number 33.

The point is at the beginning of his career Massie was considered to have a great deal of potential - some even thought he'd go higher than he actually did.

In the end constant battles with injury and chronic fatigue blunted his progress and he was traded to us for either one of Ben Nelson, David Gallagher or Andrew Eccles, I can't quite recall.

For a good season's worth of rounds between 2003 and 2004 he was playing some terrific football that gave us a window as to what he could have been before he suffered yet more injury, so to say that the words 'Massie' and 'potential' never went together isn't correct.

 

[Stiffy_18]

cupido was pick number 6 from memory. Means shi te all. We knew we were getting a slow HBF. IMO hes done the best he can but just doesnt thave it. NC hasnt given him a go at all though

Cupido is actually a poor example to use.

Cupido does have some REAL talent its just that he is a headcase. A bit like Angwin really

You don't get picked up in top 10 unless you have some real potential. Not in recent years anyway.

 

[outback jack]

Cupido is actually a poor example to use.

Cupido does have some REAL talent its just that he is a headcase. A bit like Angwin really

You don't get picked up in top 10 unless you have some real potential. Not in recent years anyway.

that is really a poor argument. Cupido can maybe be a HHF, but nothing else. personally i wouldnt want to draft a HHF with a top 10 pick if i was a recruiter. Its imp not to confuse potential with flashiness. Lets take your favorite Ladhams for instance , he has more potential than massie really. And where you're picked means nothing unless its that top3 select grp there always is, there would be plenty of top10 picks, that havent made it. Some would be like laurie who simply didnt make the effort, and with others is because they have less talent than the recruiting manger perceived.

For me massie is one of these, he does some things were you think that looks ok, but when it comes down to it he lacks some of the physical and mental traits that mean he can become a better player. I would say he has fulfilled his potential but simply isnt good enough. Ladhams is someone who hasnt fulfilled his potential. Both should get the chop one is his own fault and the other is simply his time in AFL footy is over.

 

[outback jack]

And Simon Black was pick number 33.

this supports my case, why would you say this?

The point is at the beginning of his career Massie was considered to have a great deal of potential - some even thought he'd go higher than he actually did.

In the end constant battles with injury and chronic fatigue blunted his progress and he was traded to us for either one of Ben Nelson, David Gallagher or Andrew Eccles, I can't quite recall.

For a good season's worth of rounds between 2003 and 2004 he was playing some terrific football that gave us a window as to what he could have been before he suffered yet more injury, so to say that the words 'Massie' and 'potential' never went together isn't correct.

was touted as a very high pick in the media circles. But several clubs overlooked him and it was carlton who picked him. Carlton have recruited absolute shi te, especially around that time period. Livingston comes to mind.

Anyway my point is you said its a shame cause they both had a fair bit of potential. I can understand this comment with begley, as injury has inhibited his development. But massie, maybe had perceived potential by the carlton recruiting staff which doesnt say alot, but he certainly doesnt have some unfulfilled potential which your comment is implying. Massie is an average player, who has average abilities, who has no improvement in him (ie no potential) whose time is up basically. Thats it.

 

[tribey]

this supports my case, why would you say this?

My point was potential at the bare bones is a player's chance of becoming something special at the early stages of their career - everyone has it in varying degrees - and you're ignoring this fact with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of the 1997 draft, Massie was touted as having a bag of it and duly went early, Simon Black was considered a middle of the road pick having intermediate potential, but turned out to have a stack of it.

You're talking about Massie and dismissing my comments about him ever having potential with the benefit of eight seasons' worth of hindsight.

Be interesting to see what the young OJ would have said prior to draft day 1997 - I doubt you would have had such terrific 'foresight'. Or are you going to tell me you would have drafted Black at #1, Goodes at #2 and Massie at #70?

Anyway my point is you said its a shame cause they both had a fair bit of potential. I can understand this comment with begley, as injury has inhibited his development.

You don't think injury inhibited Massie's development? He had CFS as well as a series of soft tissue injuries which stunted his progress, especially in his early years. If you're excusing Begley on the grounds of injury, then Massie certainly deserves the same treatment.

 

[macca23]

that is really a poor argument. Cupido can maybe be a HHF, but nothing else. personally i wouldnt want to draft a HHF with a top 10 pick if i was a recruiter. Its imp not to confuse potential with flashiness. Lets take your favorite Ladhams for instance , he has more potential than massie really. And where you're picked means nothing unless its that top3 select grp there always is, there would be plenty of top10 picks, that havent made it. Some would be like laurie who simply didnt make the effort, and with others is because they have less talent than the recruiting manger perceived.

For me massie is one of these, he does some things were you think that looks ok, but when it comes down to it he lacks some of the physical and mental traits that mean he can become a better player. I would say he has fulfilled his potential but simply isnt good enough. Ladhams is someone who hasnt fulfilled his potential. Both should get the chop one is his own fault and the other is simply his time in AFL footy is over.

I don't agree with this part, jack. Cupido is high on talent, low on dedication and application. Put Jared Poulton's heart into Cupido's body and he'd be able to play virtually any position and shine. As it is he is a miserable failure and will NEVER realize his natural ability.

Ladhams is not as naturally talented but still has more than his fair share, but is another who looks like departing the scene through a lack of commitment.

Massie has the commitment but no longer the ability to perfrom.

 

[outback jack]

My point was potential at the bare bones is a player's chance of becoming something special at the early stages of their career - everyone has it in varying degrees - and you're ignoring this fact with the benefit of hindsight. At the time of the 1997 draft, Massie was touted as having a bag of it and duly went early, Simon Black was considered a middle of the road pick having intermediate potential, but turned out to have a stack of it.

You're talking about Massie and dismissing my comments about him ever having potential with the benefit of eight seasons' worth of hindsight.

Be interesting to see what the young OJ would have said prior to draft day 1997 - I doubt you would have had such terrific 'foresight'. Or are you going to tell me you would have drafted Black at #1, Goodes at #2 and Massie at #70?

you are misinterpreting me. Almost deliberately it seems

I am not talking about 1997, i am referring to your comment that you have made now, at this moment. I am saying at this point in his career, we cannot say that he had potential that was unfulfilled. Now if this is the view you hold then we agree, but your comments implied that he could have been something more, some unfulfilled potential he had, which just aint true.

Now maybe carlton saw something they liked, but from early on it was obvious that he lacked those qualities that would make him a better than average player. Carlton picked a player that they thought was better than he actually was. It wasnt a case of terrible injury or attitude that has stopped him being an afl player.

You don't think injury inhibited Massie's development? He had CFS as well as a series of soft tissue injuries which stunted his progress, especially in his early years. If you're excusing Begley on the grounds of injury, then Massie certainly deserves the same treatment.

No. He got CFS after he was ********e and was already a solid HBF nothing more. I dont rate begley ether, but think injury is perhaps more applicable to him for not becoming a regular. Its irrelevant really both will get the chop at seasons end.

 

[outback jack]

I don't agree with this part, jack. Cupido is high on talent, low on dedication and application. Put Jared Poulton's heart into Cupido's body and he'd be able to play virtually any position and shine. As it is he is a miserable failure and will NEVER realize his natural ability.

Ladhams is not as naturally talented but still has more than his fair share, but is another who looks like departing the scene through a lack of commitment.

Massie has the commitment but no longer the ability to perfrom.

i dunno i've never rated cupido to be honest. Couldnt ever see him becoming a midfielder. I think a flashy HHF or HBF is often confused as a having potential for other positions, like the midfield. I wouldnt say cupido is talented really, a player from essendon that is talent but doesnt have the application is rioli (sp) that is a good example for me. Although, Sheedy said cupido doesnt work, so maybe you're right, really its hard to know.

and about massie i'm saying he never had the ability to be a good player. Slow, doesnt win the ball, not good disposal....... i could go on.

Ladhams i dont rate either, but has more natural finishing ability than massie. I think chrissy struggles to win the ball at afl level. Did you mean ladhams is less talented than massie?? cause that aint right.

Its all elementary we shall be saying goodbye to all three at seasons end. That is jacks hot tip

 

[Lefty]

i dunno i've never rated cupido to be honest. Couldnt ever see him becoming a midfielder. I think a flashy HHF or HBF is often confused as a having potential for other positions, like the midfield. I wouldnt say cupido is talented really, a player from essendon that is talent but doesnt have the application is rioli (sp) that is a good example for me. Although, Sheedy said cupido doesnt work, so maybe you're right, really its hard to know.

and about massie i'm saying he never had the ability to be a good player. Slow, doesnt win the ball, not good disposal....... i could go on.

Ladhams i dont rate either, but has more natural finishing ability than massie. I think chrissy struggles to win the ball at afl level. Did you mean ladhams is less talented than massie?? cause that aint right.

Its all elementary we shall be saying goodbye to all three at seasons end. That is jacks hot tip

I hope, nay I pray, your right jack.

 

[Crow-mosone]

massie and potential i dont think so. Poor comment. Dissapointing recruiting by the club torney, begley, massie all HBF's, Torney i rate but you dont trade a hard in and under midfielder for a HBF. Begley maybe has a little class, but neither can play in the middle and arent anything special for a HBF. I think ladhams might be helping them pack too

A guy who was rated as lock for no.3 in what was reckoned to be the greatest draft ever at the time, no potential? There was shock when he slipped all the way to pick no.7

Didn't work out for him sure, but no potential?