Bloody Sunday Soldiers may be charged...

[Gus Poyet]

Put em away.

The British soldiers who killed 14 people onBloody Sundayin Derry may be arrested and charged with murder or attempted murder.
The Sunday Times of London report says that up to 20 retired soldiers are likely to be arrested and questioned by police for murder, attempted murder or criminal injury over the shootings more than 40 years ago.
Britain’s Ministry of Defence has already started to hire lawyers to represent the soldiers, most of whom are now in their 60s and 70s.
They will be questioned under criminal caution about their roles in the shootings when soldiers who opened fire on participants in a Civil Rights march.
The British Army troops who killed the 14 Bloody Sunday victims may face prosecution in a trial which the paper says will reopen wounds from one of the most notorious incidents in the history of the Troubles.
The move comes three years after the 12-year inquiry by Lord Saville into the shootings produced its report.
The Saville Report concluded that all those shot by paratroopers during a Catholic civil rights march in the nationalist Bogside area of Derry in January 1972 were unarmed. It said the killings were both ‘unjustified and unjustifiable’.
The enquiry said the army had lost control of the situation, that the soldiers had fired first and some of them had then lied to cover up their culpability.
After the report was published, British Prime Minister David Cameron issued a formal apology to the families on behalf of the nation.
The Sunday Times reports that a source close to the police who has seen government files has confirmed the possibility of court action against the soldiers.
The source said: “This is the beginning. It is the first time the soldiers will have been interviewed formally by police as part of a murder investigation. It is possible that some of the soldiers will be prosecuted.
“Interviews under police caution are expected imminently.”
A spokesman for the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) told the paper that the time scale might be longer.
The spokesman said: “Preliminary work has begun into what will be a lengthy and complex investigation into the events of January 30, 1972.
“For the investigation to be as comprehensive and effective as possible, police will be asking for public support in the form of witnesses who gave evidence to the Saville inquiry now making statements to detectives.
“This is because police are precluded from using Saville testimony in a criminal investigation.”

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Bl...arges-and-criminal-prosecution-228524391.html

 

[PACatter]

Let's open up wounds which were slowly fading? Brilliant!

Seriously though, any "eyewitness testimony" 40 years after the fact has to be suspect. The Saville inquiry is flawed, and its publication means that anyone giving testimony would be under serious doubt given the availability of the inquiry.

I know they want scalps for all the money poured in to this, but it's best to just let it go.

 

[telsor]

I was in NI a few months back.

The people there are happy/proud that peace has been achieved and maintained, and well aware that they're current (relative) prosperity is a result of that. They're also very aware that they're balancing on a knife edge and that the s**t could very easily resume contact with the fan with only a small provocation.

While this trial is probably a good thing for justice, and will be appreciated by the catholics, it does bring things back into focus, and opens up the threat a lot more....What if, in a close call, the judge decides there is insufficient evidence to maintain a conviction? What if the sentences are deemed 'light'?

Rightly or wrongly there will be many who consider it a sham (whatever the outcome). If they are convicted, there will be those who think they're being treated as scape goats.

What about the IRA people who were never caught...Will they get handed over for trial in an equivilent move?

I can tell you now, I wouldn't want to be there in the days immediately before and after the verdict is handed down.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Let's open up wounds which were slowly fading? Brilliant!

Seriously though, any "eyewitness testimony" 40 years after the fact has to be suspect. The Saville inquiry is flawed, and its publication means that anyone giving testimony would be under serious doubt given the availability of the inquiry.

I know they want scalps for all the money poured in to this, but it's best to just let it go.

Yes let's deny people justice and let the British get away with cold blooded murder.

Obviously you would have prefered the Jews never hunted down Nazis after the war so that we could all forget about it and move on.

 

[Gus Poyet]

What about the IRA people who were never caught...Will they get handed over for trial in an equivilent move?

I can tell you now, I wouldn't want to be there in the days immediately before and after the verdict is handed down.

What about the countless Nationalists who were jailed and those who died in jails?

How is it they were held accountable for their actions yet these Soldiers never were?

Any time a Nationalist did something they would cry they want justice. Opposing putting these scum away is supporting only justice for one group of people.

Do that and you might as well just say you condone killing innocent indigenous Irish and be done with it.

 

[telsor]

What about the countless Nationalists who were jailed and those who died in jails?

How is it they were held accountable for their actions yet these Soldiers never were?

Any time a Nationalist did something they would cry they want justice. Opposing putting these scum away is supporting only justice for one group of people.

Do that and you might as well just say you condone killing innocent indigenous Irish and be done with it.

Did I say not to do it?

I was just pointing out that the peace over there is fragile, and this will stretch it.

e.g. If individuals get off (say, because 40 year old witnesses aren't very reliable), how would you react?

In the long term, it's a good thing, but in the shorter term, it reopens a lot of wounds and I have no hesitation in saying there are many over there, on both sides, who would rather not go there.

Honestly, I think a South African style truth and reconciliation commision where amnesty was traded for confessions would have been a better move, but the paramilitaries (of both sides) wouldn't go for it because that would mean their members were outed, and they wouldn't be able to start up again if they felt the need.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Did I say not to do it?

I was just pointing out that the peace over there is fragile, and this will stretch it.

e.g. If individuals get off (say, because 40 year old witnesses aren't very reliable), how would you react?

In the long term, it's a good thing, but in the shorter term, it reopens a lot of wounds and I have no hesitation in saying there are many over there, on both sides, who would rather not go there.

Honestly, I think a South African style truth and reconciliation commision where amnesty was traded for confessions would have been a better move, but the paramilitaries (of both sides) wouldn't go for it because that would mean their members were outed, and they wouldn't be able to start up again if they felt the need.

If the peace process is so fragile that it can't stand up to justice being dealt for the murder of innocent people then that process hasn't worked, it's simply covered it over with rice paper.

40 years might be a long time to your way of thinking, but in the Irish mindset, 40 years is not a long time ago at all.

 

[telsor]

If the peace process is so fragile that it can't stand up to justice being dealt for the murder of innocent people then that process hasn't worked, it's simply covered it over with rice paper.

40 years might be a long time to your way of thinking, but in the Irish mindset, 40 years is not a long time ago at all.

40 years is a long time for peoples memories though. At least so far are the exact recolection of events goes. Yes, significant events stick harder, but saying they're reliable to a legal certainty?

Have you actually been there and spoken to people there recently, or are you just on your ideological high horse?

 

[Gus Poyet]

40 years is a long time for peoples memories though. At least so far are the exact recolection of events goes. Yes, significant events stick harder, but saying they're reliable to a legal certainty?

It was enough to jail Nazis when the Jews hunted them down wasn't it?

Have you actually been there and spoken to people there recently, or are you just on your ideological high horse?

I was born and lived in Derry until my family came out to Australia.

You?

 

[telsor]

It was enough to jail Nazis when the Jews hunted them down wasn't it?



I was born and lived in Derry until my family came out to Australia.

You?

I suppose it was, if you want justice though, what do you propose to bring justice to the hundreds of civilians killed by the paramilitaries (of both sides)? Or are you only a murderer if you wear a uniform?

As I said before, I was there a few months back, and spoke to people of a variety of opinions (which was a bit wierd...We were told not to bring the topic up, but there seems to be a desire to tell tourists who don't have a preset opinion stuff). My grandmother was also born and raised there (Catholic, Antrim) until her family moved away in her late teens.

Main thing I learned is that both sides are scared of it all restarting, and fear the nutters on their own side almost as much as the opposition.

 

[Gus Poyet]

I suppose it was, if you want justice though, what do you propose to bring justice to the hundreds of civilians killed by the paramilitaries (of both sides)? Or are you only a murderer if you wear a uniform?

Given a hell of a lot of paramilitary were locked up or killed I hardly think they are comparable to the British Military.

The British Military were supposed to be there to protect the public, not as they did on Bloody Sunday and shoot them down in cold blooded murder.

As I said before, I was there a few months back, and spoke to people of a variety of opinions (which was a bit wierd...We were told not to bring the topic up, but there seems to be a desire to tell tourists who don't have a preset opinion stuff). My grandmother was also born and raised there (Catholic, Antrim) until her family moved away in her late teens.

It depends where in NI you go as to the opinion which will be held.

Where I'm from in Derry there's still a lot of resentment and a desire to be free from British rule.

Drive around and there's still the murals on buildings reminding people to never forget.

Main thing I learned is that both sides are scared of it all restarting, and fear the nutters on their own side almost as much as the opposition.

I too know of people wary of it starting up again. That doesn't mean they don't want to be part of the republic again, they just hope it happens through a referendum.

 

[telsor]

Given a hell of a lot of paramilitary were locked up or killed I hardly think they are comparable to the British Military.

The British Military were supposed to be there to protect the public, not as they did on Bloody Sunday and shoot them down in cold blooded murder.

Here is where we differ I think.

The British military was in uniform, the paramilitariess were in civies. While the military shooting people by mistake is a horrible thing, I think they had more excuse for failing to correctly identify their targets.

The paramilitaries had deliberate and premeditated operations where they targeted civilians. I think the victims of these attacks and their families have as much right to justice as the victims and families of those killed and injured at bloody sunday (and other civilians killed by the military), and if justice is to be tracked down and sent to court, incriminated largely by your own side, then that standard should be maintained across the board.

As I said before, I think a South African style truth and reconciliation commision would have been the better route here, but if this is the standard, then all sides should abide by it.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Here is where we differ I think.

The British military was in uniform, the paramilitariess were in civies. While the military shooting people by mistake is a horrible thing, I think they had more excuse for failing to correctly identify their targets.

They had no excuse for shooting unarmed civilians.

They have all the military power and laws on their side. When they kill innocents they should feel the full force of the law. Not be protected and cover ups from the Government.

The paramilitaries had deliberate and premeditated operations where they targeted civilians. I think the victims of these attacks and their families have as much right to justice as the victims and families of those killed and injured at bloody sunday (and other civilians killed by the military), and if justice is to be tracked down and sent to court, incriminated largely by your own side, then that standard should be maintained across the board.

They did get justice, countless paramilitary were shot dead or jailed.

Have you not heard of the Maze? No British soliders ever ended up there.

As I said before, I think a South African style truth and reconciliation commision would have been the better route here, but if this is the standard, then all sides should abide by it.

Meaning unlike the paras the Army never had to face any kind of music.

 

[telsor]

They had no excuse for shooting unarmed civilians.

They have all the military power and laws on their side. When they kill innocents they should feel the full force of the law. Not be protected and cover ups from the Government.

The military ****ed up badly and civilians were killed. I'm not saying they should be protected or shielded from justice.

The paramilitaries deliberated sought out and targetted innocent civilians, but you, seemingly, want the individuals involved to escape justice.

They did get justice, countless paramilitary were shot dead or jailed.

Justice isn't done collectively...If I, as an Australian, kill someone, would it be just to lock up another Australian for my crime? Of course not.

Actually it's not 'countless', and if casualties counts as justice, the british security forces died at roughly twice the rate of the paramilitaries (1114 British Security & 11 Irish Security Vs 169 Loyalist & 396 Republican) ( source, Sutton index of deaths, CAIN, University of ulster). By your own standard of collective justice, they paid the price, especially as casualties inflicted were almost 10:1 inflicted by the paramilitaries ( 363 by the British security & 5 by Irish against 1026 by Loyalists & 2058 by Republicans).

Have you not heard of the Maze? No British soliders ever ended up there.

No, if they were caught they were killed. I'm not sure how you think this is better.

Meaning unlike the paras the Army never had to face any kind of music.

The paras are part of the army....but yes, justice should also go up the chain of command...ON BOTH SIDES.

 

[telsor]

Just realised that by paras on that last line, you meant paramilitaries, not the parachute regiment (who commited bloody sunday).

As I illustrated earlier in my post, the casualty figure show they did face the music, by the standard you seem to think was acceptable in excusing the paramilitaries from having to face the courts.

 

[Gus Poyet]

The military ****** up badly and civilians were killed. I'm not saying they should be protected or shielded from justice.

The paramilitaries deliberated sought out and targetted innocent civilians, but you, seemingly, want the individuals involved to escape justice.

Hundreds on one side were jailed.

Not one solider or black and tan was ever jailed for their actions.

 

[telsor]

Hundreds on one side were jailed.

Not one solider or black and tan was ever jailed for their actions.

So now that I've pointed out the casualty figures, they're no longer relevant?

OK..Individuals in the military and black & tans who warrant jail for crimes as yet unpunished should get it...As should individuals from the paramilitaries whose crimes are not yet punished.

 

[Gus Poyet]

So now that I've pointed out the casualty figures, they're no longer relevant?

What do casulaty figure have anything to do with it when it's apparent a great deal of people did answer to those crimes and were jailed.

You make it out as if nobody was ever caught for such crimes nor jailed, they were. By the hundreds.

OK..Individuals in the military and black & tans who warrant jail for crimes as yet unpunished should get it...As should individuals from the paramilitaries whose crimes are not yet punished.

Go for it. I have no issue with that.

The only difference is there was never a cover up to shield the non Army combatants by Governments or Military officials.

 

[telsor]

What do casulaty figure have anything to do with it when it's apparent a great deal of people did answer to those crimes and were jailed.

You make it out as if nobody was ever caught for such crimes nor jailed, they were. By the hundreds.




Go for it. I have no issue with that.

The only difference is there was never a cover up to shield the non Army combatants by Governments or Military officials.

Great, get the paramilitiaries to hand over the people and the evidence.

 

[Gough]

Just the Brits kicking the arse of an inferior, backwards society, isn't that how you justify the genocide of the first Australians Gus?

 

[ross warren]

this incident happened so long ago, the men involved are all dead or if not close to it, their is now peace in northern Ireland, this is just dredging up the past, their were wrongs by both sides involved in the conflict, they should do as the south Africans did in their reconciliation, forgive and forget

 

[medusala]

Not one solider or black and tan was ever jailed for their actions.

Lee Clegg.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Lee Clegg.

Sentenced to life, conviction overturned.

 

[little graham]

Well, I would like to say that I don't think it's fair the squaddies are held accountable for this, I think their officers, their training and the politicians are the ones who should be. Anyone who knows anything about wars such as this knows that the paramilitary groups relied on hiding in and amongst the communities, that the number one tactic was making the squaddies life as paranoid as possible. This wasn't just a simple bunch of soldiers committing an atrocity cause they could. Most of the squaddies in Nth Ireland had only done some basic training, were from the poorer areas of Englands cities etc etc. They were in a very vulnerable position fighting a type of war they were not trained or supplied properly to fight.

The way the South Africans have dealt with reconciliation is not working, the way we still hunt 90yo train guards from the third Riech (who had no other choice but to comply) is not right. The lack of accountability for the crimes against humanity committed by the British in this country is also not right.