Brad Scott's overarching legacy

[Roosurgence]

The issue is not before 2014/2015 - I'm of the view that like it or not the expansion clubs gave us close to zero chance of pinching a flag unless everything went perfectly. A JWS without ankle injury could have been the simple sliding door difference IMO.

It is after 2015-16 that the they do need to take full responsibility. Decisions were made there that were not consistent. We had the guts to cut some stalwarts but then happily gave them a farewell tour whilst we got obliterated in a final. We barely played Daw all year then he was amongst our best in that same poor final (and went on to have a cracking year a season or so later). Brad and his match committee were simply too conservative at selection and failed to recruit or select good young players during this period and this is a big part of the reason we have a team led by a Captain that we are finding roles to justify his selection and a midfield led by a 80 odd kg 24 year old. It's not about playing only kids it's about playing the replacements for players that were closer to the end (or delisting) than not. We simply didn't do it and we didn't find replacements even for role players which is why we have such a cavernous gap between Simpkin and the older players in the 22. We left it too late now we have to do it extra hard.

Said in a lot more detail than I did.

The fact that we have a non-existent core group of players in that 26-29 year old age bracket, that should now be in their prime and shouldering the load, sits squarely on Brad Scott’s shoulders.

 

[Engimal v3]

He was a decent coach who got us to within a game of the big dance twice. His grating personality makes him an easy target for blame regarding our current shortcomings, but he was not the be all and end all of our list management.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

Well Dan I planned on starting the STOTC at seasons end.

Used to buy our newspapers at Francis Bourke's newsagency. He was OK. You know where I'm going with my STOTC vote......

 

[speedy]

Are we still blaming Scott? At least we were competitive under him. And I cant see how the current playing list was his fault either? It's not like we constantly traded away our draft picks. In the end, the drafting wasn't good enough.

Now the concern is the new coaching & drafting staff might not be much good either?

 

[Kangaroos techno]

Scotts and Cam Joyces ran the list into the ground. EOS.

Factually incorrect. If you adjust draft picks so they are like for like then Cam Joyce is placed #3 in the competition for effectiveness. People hang s**t on him for a few misses and fail to factor in that development coaches and injuries also play a part in the outcome. People also point out the one or 2 successful players that we could have taken in certain drafts but don't consider that 17 other terms failed to do the same.

It's not Joyce's fault EVW, Walker, Harper, Jacobs, Cam Delaney, Curran, Daw, Wood and Garner were terribly unlucky with injuries. People hang s**t on the Watson decision whilst completing ignoring the fact that Watson did his ACL in his first season (just like Nielson. Durdin and EVW also missed their first year with long term injuries) and then not long after he recovered he injured his knee again.

It's not Joyce's fault Scott continued to play an injured Black until his confidence dropped into Earth's core. So much so it never recovered.

It's not Joyce's fault that the AFL decided to bring in 2 new teams and compromise multiple drafts so we were left taking flaky flankers that we hoped could turn into consistent ball winners.

Joyce all the negatives but none of the plaudits for selecting Brown at 47, larkey at 73, Hartung at 77, zurhaar in the rookie draft. Or some of the others picks that are key pillars in our team (Simpkin and McKay).

This board also acts like he's still making the blunders but the last draft he was in charge of was 2018.

 

[hilly]

Factually incorrect. If you adjust draft picks so they are like for like then Cam Joyce is placed #3 in the competition for effectiveness. People hang s**t on him for a few misses and fail to factor in that development coaches and injuries also play a part in the outcome. People also point out the one or 2 successful players that we could have taken in certain drafts but don't consider that 17 other terms failed to do the same.

It's not Joyce's fault EVW, Walker, Harper, Jacobs, Cam Delaney, Curran, Daw, Wood and Garner were terribly unlucky with injuries. People hang s**t on the Watson decision whilst completing ignoring the fact that Watson did his ACL in his first season (just like Nielson. Durdin and EVW also missed their first year with long term injuries) and then not long after he recovered he injured his knee again.

It's not Joyce's fault Scott continued to play an injured Black until his confidence dropped into Earth's core. So much so it never recovered.

It's not Joyce's fault that the AFL decided to bring in 2 new teams and compromise multiple drafts so we were left taking flaky flankers that we hoped could turn into consistent ball winners.

Joyce all the negatives but none of the plaudits for selecting Brown at 47, larkey at 73, Hartung at 77, zurhaar in the rookie draft. Or some of the others picks that are key pillars in our team (Simpkin and McKay).

This board also acts like he's still making the blunders but the last draft he was in charge of was 2018.

Okay Cam good luck at Gold Coasts AFLW.

On SM-G950F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Kangaroos techno]

Okay Cam good luck at Gold Coasts AFLW.

On SM-G950F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Standard response when people don't like their weak opinions challenged. Life is easier with simplistic takes on things. I wish i had that same luxury.

 

[danj]

Some posters seem to be confusing BS legacy with the Admin legacy, I think the Admin legacy is outstanding and goes back to (make it happen) Eugene (things are still happening) if BS could have matched that effort we would have had 3 premierships under him. I admit I’m a hater when it comes to BS however I concede it is time to move on. BUT the culture, fitness, mental issues and list inconsistencies that plague us now started under his watch.

 

[The Anvil]

Some posters seem to be confusing BS legacy with the Admin legacy, I think the Admin legacy is outstanding and goes back to (make it happen) Eugene (things are still happening) if BS could have matched that effort we would have had 3 premierships under him. I admit I’m a hater when it comes to BS however I concede it is time to move on. BUT the culture, fitness, mental issues and list inconsistencies that plague us now started under his watch.

I agree that the Roos administration has been great particularly from a financial perspective, still they are partly to blame for allowing BS to have so much autonomy.

Coaches want players that help them win now, unless they are provided enough rope just as Noble is now. List management have the job of maintaining a healthy list and that failure is what is kicking us in the face right now.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Mav]

He was a decent coach who got us to within a game of the big dance twice. His grating personality makes him an easy target for blame regarding our current shortcomings, but he was not the be all and end all of our list management.

Wrong: He had good sides which he couldn't get into the top 4...not once. And he was the be all and end all of our list management. His arrogance not only resulted in him sitting on the committee, but making everyone else to scared to go against him.

Correct: Yep, he had a grating personality, which was a big reason why we never achieved our full potential under him.

You just have to look at how he is performing at AFLHQ to see he's a terrible operator. He set our club back 20 years and should never be recognized as a North Melbourne person.

 

[Themanbun]

I'm actually pretty on the fence about his legacy, have heard conflicting things, and this thread's diametrically opposed views probably reflects that.

One thing I can't get on board with is continuing to blame Joyce and Scott for mistakes made in the past few years.

 

[Passmore]

I feel this will be right up your alley.

 

[danj]

I agree that the Roos administration has been great particularly from a financial perspective, still they are partly to blame for allowing BS to have so much autonomy.

Coaches want players that help them win now, unless they are provided enough rope just as Noble is now. List management have the job of maintaining a healthy list and that failure is what is kicking us in the face right now.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Admin and Governance are separate things overall the Board are responsible for the good governance of the club and appointing the administrators for business operations and football operations. Insofar as the business side of things have gone it’s a thumbs up as far as footy ops it’s a thumbs down, the Board is responsible for both. I think they lacked the guts to sort BS out sooner and I think this is because they allowed themselves to be guided by McDonald and Crocker 2 blokes who were too comfortable and influential for too long IMO

 

[danj]

I'm actually pretty on the fence about his legacy, have heard conflicting things, and this thread's diametrically opposed views probably reflects that.

One thing I can't get on board with is continuing to blame Joyce and Scott for mistakes made in the past few years.

mistakes made in the past few years.

This is a key point in the whole debate, where does a club’s culture come from? What did we do yesterday that influences how we go about things today? How far back do we go? The shinboner spirit goes back for 100 years. In the modern era do we go back to Wayne Carey and track our clubs slow cultural demise from there? Culture takes a long time to establish and bad culture takes longer to eradicate so yes we are still getting over our past mistakes and BS did us no favours in this regard.

 

[Ball Dont Lie]

Just so we are clear for those concerned about our lack of 25-30 year olds left on the list due to Scott’s reign, Brad didn’t cut or trade Brown, Tarrant, Atley, wood, Jmac, Dumont (who all played in finals under his watch). They might not have been stars but they were good AFL standard players. It’s not Brad’s fault Jacobs, Garner’s bodies let them down and they couldn’t keep playing. It’s not brad’s fault Cunnington, Anderson, Hall can’t get on the park at the moment. All those guys conceivably could be on the list now. I am not really sure how we can blame him for the list crisis. Sure he had his faults but the current issue of hood experienced leaders is really something he should carry the can for.

 

[Dan]

I feel this will be right up your alley.

What gives you that impression?

 

[scottywiper]

Factually incorrect. If you adjust draft picks so they are like for like then Cam Joyce is placed #3 in the competition for effectiveness. People hang s**t on him for a few misses and fail to factor in that development coaches and injuries also play a part in the outcome. People also point out the one or 2 successful players that we could have taken in certain drafts but don't consider that 17 other terms failed to do the same.

It's not Joyce's fault EVW, Walker, Harper, Jacobs, Cam Delaney, Curran, Daw, Wood and Garner were terribly unlucky with injuries. People hang s**t on the Watson decision whilst completing ignoring the fact that Watson did his ACL in his first season (just like Nielson. Durdin and EVW also missed their first year with long term injuries) and then not long after he recovered he injured his knee again.

It's not Joyce's fault Scott continued to play an injured Black until his confidence dropped into Earth's core. So much so it never recovered.

It's not Joyce's fault that the AFL decided to bring in 2 new teams and compromise multiple drafts so we were left taking flaky flankers that we hoped could turn into consistent ball winners.

Joyce all the negatives but none of the plaudits for selecting Brown at 47, larkey at 73, Hartung at 77, zurhaar in the rookie draft. Or some of the others picks that are key pillars in our team (Simpkin and McKay).

This board also acts like he's still making the blunders but the last draft he was in charge of was 2018.

You almost had me until Hartung!!!! lol
Also, IIRC Joyces wanted Joel Tippett ahead of Brown that year?

 

[Forever North]

Scott is the ultimate s**t talker and networker. A classic ladder climber. Has already got a job lined up in the AFL ‘industry’ once his current job ends as well as the 2 after that.…
He probably stayed 2-3 years too long. Probably didn’t have any better job offers to go to…..

 

[ferball]

Just so we are clear for those concerned about our lack of 25-30 year olds left on the list due to Scott’s reign, Brad didn’t cut or trade Brown, Tarrant, Atley, wood, Jmac, Dumont (who all played in finals under his watch). They might not have been stars but they were good AFL standard players. It’s not Brad’s fault Jacobs, Garner’s bodies let them down and they couldn’t keep playing. It’s not brad’s fault Cunnington, Anderson, Hall can’t get on the park at the moment. All those guys conceivably could be on the list now. I am not really sure how we can blame him for the list crisis. Sure he had his faults but the current issue of hood experienced leaders is really something he should carry the can for.

None of those guys are under 27. Not the bolded ones or any of the others you've mentioned. Counting them we have 30+ players (JMac, Taz, JZ Goldy etc) then 29 yr olds - Brown, Ats, Walker, Polec; 28 - Jed, Wood; 27 - Lmac, Corr, Dumont; 26 - Turner; then u25 -> 24 - Jy and Buckets.

I am not really sure how we can blame him for the list crisis.

In the 24, 25 and 26 year old age group we have three players. We should have about ten. Extend that to 24 - 28 year olds and we have six instead of a number closer to sixteen. Six players across the most crucial five year age group. The 2013, 14, 15 drafts and 16 before pick 70 have given us four players still on the list - Lmac, Buckets, Turner and Jy. If not for Larkey and Zurhaar (who are 23 as well, so younger and out of that middle five year block) it would be a total disaster. That massive hole in our list is on Scott.

 

[Ball Dont Lie]

None of those guys are under 27. Not the bolded ones or any of the others you've mentioned. Counting them we have 30+ players (JMac, Taz, JZ Goldy etc) then 29 yr olds - Brown, Ats, Walker, Polec; 28 - Jed, Wood; 27 - Lmac, Corr, Dumont; 26 - Turner; then u25 -> 24 - Jy and Buckets.

I am not really sure how we can blame him for the list crisis.

In the 24, 25 and 26 year old age group we have three players. We should have about ten. Extend that to 24 - 28 year olds and we have six instead of a number closer to sixteen. Six players across the most crucial five year age group. The 2013, 14, 15 drafts and 16 before pick 70 have given us four players still on the list - Lmac, Buckets, Turner and Jy. If not for Larkey and Zurhaar (who are 23 as well, so younger and out of that middle five year block) it would be a total disaster. That massive hole in our list is on Scott.

In your opinion when will it no longer be his fault? 5 years? 10 years? The much derided list of players have shown under both Scott, Shaw and Nobel they are capable of winning games and at worst be competitive. I am of the opinion our list is not 10 goals worse than the blues (they weren’t at half time) and certainly not as bad as we are playing at the moment. I just think it’s very easy yo keep blaming the past.

 

[ferball]

In your opinion when will it no longer be his fault? 5 years? 10 years? The much derided list of players have shown under both Scott, Shaw and Nobel they are capable of winning games and at worst be competitive. I am of the opinion our list is not 10 goals worse than the blues (they weren’t at half time) and certainly not as bad as we are playing at the moment. I just think it’s very easy yo keep blaming the past.

What's that question got to do with anything?

The fact is that right now this list has a massive hole in the most crucial age group and that age group was Scott's responsibility for developing. We simply haven't got enough good players from that period immediately after those compromised drafts. What happens in five or ten years is irrelevant.

I'll say it again - we have a massive hole in a five year age demographic from 24 - 28.

Brads Scotts was responsible for recruiting and developing that age group of players as they came into the system. He failed and right now that is why we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild and have * all support for it over 25 years of age.

They are the facts. Deal with them.

 

[Ball Dont Lie]

What's that question got to do with anything?

The fact is that right now this list has a massive hole in the most crucial age group and that age group was Scott's responsibility for developing. We simply haven't got enough good players from that period immediately after those compromised drafts. What happens in five or ten years is irrelevant.

I'll say it again - we have a massive hole in a five year age demographic from 24 - 28.

Brads Scotts was responsible for recruiting and developing that age group of players as they came into the system. He failed and right now that is why we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild and have fu** all support for it over 25 years of age.

I feel Rhys Shaw then. He should have just told the board “we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild”.

What's that question got to do with anything?

The fact is that right now this list has a massive hole in the most crucial age group and that age group was Scott's responsibility for developing. We simply haven't got enough good players from that period immediately after those compromised drafts. What happens in five or ten years is irrelevant.

I'll say it again - we have a massive hole in a five year age demographic from 24 - 28.

Brads Scotts was responsible for recruiting and developing that age group of players as they came into the system. He failed and right now that is why we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild and have fu** all support for it over 25 years of age.

They are the facts. Deal with them.

Fair enough. I feel for Rhyce Shaw then. He should have just told the board when they queried him on our 2020 performance “we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild. They are the facts. Deal with them.”

 

[Greater Gattsby]

Sack Scotts !!

 

[ferball]

Fair enough. I feel for Rhyce Shaw then. He should have just told the board when they queried him on our 2020 performance “we are at the start of a root and branch rebuild. They are the facts. Deal with them.”

If he'd been up for it and capable they probably would have let him do it.

 

[Passmore]

Sack Scotts !!

Once just wasn’t enough.