BRODIE MARTIN

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Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Oh, no one is criticising Carlton's ruck coach. There is no doubt Clarke inherited a future quality ruckman who had much of his development done already.

The concern is that as the Carlton influence wanes and the Doc Clarke influence increases that the results are worsening.
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Interesting.

So I am sure that when Maric left the club (after years of development under Clarke) and becomes a near All Australian Ruckmen in his first year, it is because he was able to escape the clutches of Doc Clarke's coaching.

When Sauce arrives as a 22 year old after playing 17 games with Carlton - he was fully developed. Then it has taken 2 very good years (2011/2012) for Clarke's cancerous coaching to come in and destroy a talented ruckman (as evidenced by the first 4 games of 2013).

What absolute horseshit.
 
AFC979810 said:
Interesting.

So I am sure that when Maric left the club (after years of development under Clarke) and becomes a near All Australian Ruckmen in his first year, it is because he was able to escape the clutches of Doc Clarke's coaching.

When Sauce arrives as a 22 year old after playing 17 games with Carlton - he was fully developed. Then it has taken 2 very good years (2011/2012) for Clarke's cancerous coaching to come in and destroy a talented ruckman (as evidenced by the first 4 games of 2013).

What absolute horseshit.
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I'd hazard a guess it's more the rule changes brought in this year that has led to Sauce's less than spectacular performance. FWIW I thought he performed more than adequately on the weekend. Minson's one big mofo and pretty hard to move.
 

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Crow_Magnon said:
I'd hazard a guess it's more the rule changes brought in this year that has led to Sauce's less than spectacular performance. FWIW I thought he performed more than adequately on the weekend. Minson's one big mofo and pretty hard to move.
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Minson had 47 taps to Sauce's 38 + Jenkins 11. We were about even on the day. Minson spent more time in ruck than did Sauce, so I'm unsure that our big fella lowered his colours. It was Sauce's best performance for the year and just maybe he is running back in to form. Interested to see how he goes against Carltank.
 
AFC979810 said:
Interesting.

So I am sure that when Maric left the club (after years of development under Clarke) and becomes a near All Australian Ruckmen in his first year, it is because he was able to escape the clutches of Doc Clarke's coaching.

When Sauce arrives as a 22 year old after playing 17 games with Carlton - he was fully developed. Then it has taken 2 very good years (2011/2012) for Clarke's cancerous coaching to come in and destroy a talented ruckman (as evidenced by the first 4 games of 2013).

What absolute horseshit.
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Sorry, how long has Clarke been ruck coach?

I'm sure you'll recall that Mick Redden was our ruck coach while Maric and Griffin were developing. It was in their fourth seasons Doc Clarke took over. Both were well regarded as youngsters, Griffin earning comparisons with Shaun Rehn, Maric impressing with his competitive nature and with Clarke/Biglands gone plus Meesen a flop and Hudson traded the stage was set.

Doc Clarke inherited two ruckman who had already gone through four preseasons, had banked a few games and were ready. Over the next few years they rotated in and out of the team, never really cementing their spot, occasionally showing patches of good form, more often showing indifferent form. Brad Moran, James Sellar and James Craig were other ruckmen to thrive under Clarke's tutelage during this time.

The less-than-stellar performances of Clarke's battery of ruckmen forced the Crows hand, and they traded for up and coming Carlton ruckman Sam Jacobs for the 2011 season. Jacobs was reluctantly let go by Carlton who knew they had invested the time and also knew via his outstanding final vs Sydney that he was going to be a quality AFL ruckman. The Crows had pulled off a coup.

Sure enough, Jacobs grabbed the No 1 ruck spot early in 2011 and stepped straight in. Griffin and Maric faded into obscurity, to the point that both left the club.

The Crows went external again to grab another ruckman at the end of 2011 (Jenkins) and did so again at the end of 2012 (Graham). So the first three ruckmen on the list are from other clubs. The only ruckman who has remained in the Clarke stable is Shaun McKernan, who is going great. Tippett also left during this time - a player who had been earmarked by his first ruck coach Redden as a future ruck star - but whose ruck work had diminished by the 2012 season to the point that his centre square work was cringeworthy.

Griffin and Maric left their indifferent form behind at Adelaide and performed far better for their new clubs. For "whatever reason" they just couldn't put it together at Adelaide.

In 2013 the gloss has started to wear off with Jacobs. Hopefully it is just a bad patch, but the rucking ability, the confidence, the presence and the prowess he brought with him from Carlton looks to have eroded. Jenkins is starting to look the part up forward but is struggling big time to provide a genuine second ruck option.

Now the ruck coaching guru who brought us Moran, Sellar, Craig and McKernan is in charge of a group of basketball converts as well as turning the ruck form of Jacobs and Jenkins around.
 
IMO, Jacobs form is down due to injury rather than Clarke's coaching. Don't rate Clarke in a big way, but I don't think it is a coaching issue. However, we do need to coach better for when Jacobs is not dominating the ruck.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Sorry, how long has Clarke been ruck coach?

I'm sure you'll recall that Mick Redden was our ruck coach while Maric and Griffin were developing. It was in their fourth seasons Doc Clarke took over. Both were well regarded as youngsters, Griffin earning comparisons with Shaun Rehn, Maric impressing with his competitive nature and with Clarke/Biglands gone plus Meesen a flop and Hudson traded the stage was set.

Doc Clarke inherited two ruckman who had already gone through four preseasons, had banked a few games and were ready. Over the next few years they rotated in and out of the team, never really cementing their spot, occasionally showing patches of good form, more often showing indifferent form. Brad Moran, James Sellar and James Craig were other ruckmen to thrive under Clarke's tutelage during this time.

The less-than-stellar performances of Clarke's battery of ruckmen forced the Crows hand, and they traded for up and coming Carlton ruckman Sam Jacobs for the 2011 season. Jacobs was reluctantly let go by Carlton who knew they had invested the time and also knew via his outstanding final vs Sydney that he was going to be a quality AFL ruckman. The Crows had pulled off a coup.

Sure enough, Jacobs grabbed the No 1 ruck spot early in 2011 and stepped straight in. Griffin and Maric faded into obscurity, to the point that both left the club.

The Crows went external again to grab another ruckman at the end of 2011 (Jenkins) and did so again at the end of 2012 (Graham). So the first three ruckmen on the list are from other clubs. The only ruckman who has remained in the Clarke stable is Shaun McKernan, who is going great. Tippett also left during this time - a player who had been earmarked by his first ruck coach Redden as a future ruck star - but whose ruck work had diminished by the 2012 season to the point that his centre square work was cringeworthy.

Griffin and Maric left their indifferent form behind at Adelaide and performed far better for their new clubs. For "whatever reason" they just couldn't put it together at Adelaide.

In 2013 the gloss has started to wear off with Jacobs. Hopefully it is just a bad patch, but the rucking ability, the confidence, the presence and the prowess he brought with him from Carlton looks to have eroded. Jenkins is starting to look the part up forward but is struggling big time to provide a genuine second ruck option.

Now the ruck coaching guru who brought us Moran, Sellar, Craig and McKernan is in charge of a group of basketball converts as well as turning the ruck form of Jacobs and Jenkins around.
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Quality post mate. Justifies your harsh criticism of Doc.

Looking deeper into it - the Maric example is a great one.

Your points on Griffin/Maric are valid - however I think your criticism on Clarke for Sellar/McKernan are a bit harsh. For me these are more recruitment issues rather than his failure to develop them as ruckmen. Both were early developers who dominated at U18 level because of their size. At AFL level (in my opinion) they are inbetweeners - not big enough to be a dominant 1st ruck - not athletic enough to be hold down a key position post.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? - Thoughts on Walsh keeping Clarke and Jacobs form in 2014 (I think he was better last year than in 2012).

Just re-reading through our previous discussion on Clarke.

The failures you listed Moran, Sellar, Craig, McKernan - are more of a crack on our drafting rather than Clarke's failings. Firstly Moran spent the first two years at North and only 3 years here. As I mentioned above - Sellar and McKernan are tweeners - around the 196cm mark who can be average forwards and are actually decent ruckman but lack the physical attributes to be a successful full time ruckman in the AFL.

James Craig was another undersized ruckman. Despite being the AA ruckman at the U18 National Championships he slid all the way to pick 61 (4th Ruckman picked) due to his height.

Since 2008 - we have drafted one fulltime ruckman who is over 200cm. James Craig taken as a 22 year old in the 2012 rookie draft.

Its pretty clear that Roo/Fagan have come in and sought out to change any perceived weakness at our club. They replaced Sando with Walsh, Replaced VB with Tex. Within 11 days of being at the club, Walsh brought in Teague and O'Keefe with Mark Bickley 'deciding' to look for other opportunities in 2015. Another 3 days in Darren Glass was brought in to assist with Leadership.

Its pretty clear our club went through a pretty thorough review. It looks like Clarke made the cut for the 3rd straight regime. Perhaps he is actually a pretty damn good ruck coach?
 

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Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
I likened Doc to Terry Jenner during the season. Coach of Warney, so a guru. Ruined every other spinner he came into contact with but... Shane Warne.
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Interesting. Wonder what Clarke did to restore the 'gloss' from Carlton that had eroded due to his influence in 2013.

Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Hoping Brodie Martin has a good season :)
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I don't. If Martin has a good season it means he is in the best 22 which means we will struggle to make the 8.
 
AFC979810 said:
Interesting. Wonder what Clarke did to restore the 'gloss' from Carlton that had eroded due to his influence in 2013.
I don't. If Martin has a good season it means he is in the best 22 which means we will struggle to make the 8.
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If Martin has a good season then the Crows will struggle to make the 8--logical fallacy.
 
AFC979810 said:
Interesting. Wonder what Clarke did to restore the 'gloss' from Carlton that had eroded due to his influence in 2013.
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The opposite of what he did in 2013 I guess!

I guess I look at it this way: On the plus side - two isolated good seasons from Jacobs. On the downside - every other season from every other player he's been in charge of.

No doubt Clarke's stocks finished higher after 2014 than after 2013. Jacobs returned to his previous trajectory, a major plus. Credit to Clarke for getting the centre piece of our ruck department back on course. Ruck was no longer the most pressing coaching area to replace.

Not being able to establish even a remotely competent back up ruckman, or even someone who can pinch hit in ruck on occasions to give Sauce a chop out is an ongoing concern. If Sauce backs it up and Jenkins starts to ruck like he did when he arrived then I'll eat humble pie.

I don't. If Martin has a good season it means he is in the best 22 which means we will struggle to make the 8.
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Personally would be quite happy to see Martin push ahead of Mackay, Reilly, van Berlo. And don't think we'd do worse as a result.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
The opposite of what he did in 2013 I guess!

I guess I look at it this way: On the plus side - two isolated good seasons from Jacobs. On the downside - every other season from every other player he's been in charge of.

No doubt Clarke's stocks finished higher after 2014 than after 2013. Jacobs returned to his previous trajectory, a major plus. Credit to Clarke for getting the centre piece of our ruck department back on course. Ruck was no longer the most pressing coaching area to replace.

Not being able to establish even a remotely competent back up ruckman, or even someone who can pinch hit in ruck on occasions to give Sauce a chop out is an ongoing concern. If Sauce backs it up and Jenkins starts to ruck like he did when he arrived then I'll eat humble pie.
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Fair enough. Look to be honest - its not about eating humble pie. I just find it baffling how critical this forum has been of our assistant coaches over the journey. It is incredibly tough to analyse their performance considering all of the additional variables that need to be looked at. It has happened time and time again. 2011 Campo blamed for our midfield. 2012 when he had a top 4midfield in the comp not a word. Then 2013 hits and suddenly campo should be fired.

For me our failure as a club to establish a 2nd quality ruckman has a lot more to do with a lack of cattle than it does with Clarke's development of our ruck stocks.

Bit unfair on Clarke for Jenkins. His ruckwork was more of a focus in 2012 due to our structure. He generally came in to play the Tippett role in his 11 games. It was looking like he was due to continue that Tippo chop out role and its the exact way it started in 2013. He recorded 41 hitouts in the first 5 games. Then Walker went down and he became the #1 forward and we couldn't afford to waste him as a ruckman - he then had 20 hitouts over his next 12 games. Far more of a structure issue than a decline in his ruckwork ability.

Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Personally would be quite happy to see Martin push ahead of Mackay, Reilly, van Berlo. And don't think we'd do worse as a result.
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Interesting. I would prefer Martin over Reilly.

Martins best season was comparable to Van Berlo's worst season (2013).

And I know Mackay isn't exactly a favourite of yours. But what did Martin show last year that was superior to Mackay? Mackay got the ball more than Martin and used it much better.

Martin is VB without the ability to go through the midfield and win contested ball.
Martin is Mackay without the pace and elite disposal.

For someone who has been so scathing of 'average' footballers - Stevens, Skipworth, Reilly, Doughty - just wondering how you could want Brodie Martin in the side?
 
Imo this will Brodies last year on our list

All respect to Brodie however if we are serious in improving as a side Brodie should not get close to our best 22 and with this being the case spending 7-8 years on a list without being considered as best 22 will bring a close to his AFC career
 
AFC979810 said:
Fair enough. Look to be honest - its not about eating humble pie. I just find it baffling how critical this forum has been of our assistant coaches over the journey. It is incredibly tough to analyse their performance considering all of the additional variables that need to be looked at. It has happened time and time again. 2011 Campo blamed for our midfield. 2012 when he had a top 4midfield in the comp not a word. Then 2013 hits and suddenly campo should be fired.

For me our failure as a club to establish a 2nd quality ruckman has a lot more to do with a lack of cattle than it does with Clarke's development of our ruck stocks.

Bit unfair on Clarke for Jenkins. His ruckwork was more of a focus in 2012 due to our structure. He generally came in to play the Tippett role in his 11 games. It was looking like he was due to continue that Tippo chop out role and its the exact way it started in 2013. He recorded 41 hitouts in the first 5 games. Then Walker went down and he became the #1 forward and we couldn't afford to waste him as a ruckman - he then had 20 hitouts over his next 12 games. Far more of a structure issue than a decline in his ruckwork ability.



Interesting. I would prefer Martin over Reilly.

Martins best season was comparable to Van Berlo's worst season (2013).

And I know Mackay isn't exactly a favourite of yours. But what did Martin show last year that was superior to Mackay? Mackay got the ball more than Martin and used it much better.

Martin is VB without the ability to go through the midfield and win contested ball.
Martin is Mackay without the pace and elite disposal.

For someone who has been so scathing of 'average' footballers - Stevens, Skipworth, Reilly, Doughty - just wondering how you could want Brodie Martin in the side?
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Hasn't transferred to well but BM stats on left with Dmac on right. There's actually not a lot of difference with Dmac higher disposal eff reflective of going by hand more than foot. Also BM % suffered a bit through some inaccurate goal kicking.

By and large they are quite similar in size, age and stats, with the main difference being 1 has played 124 games and 1 just 35, and 1 is on a 4 year 1.6m deal and 1 struggles year by year.

I'd argue that BM was a more effective threat to the opposition last year and on the basis of games played, has significantly more upside that Dmac. The sooner we accept Dmac is an overhyped dud the better off we will be

Player Statistics Comparison
Brodie Martin Name David MacKay
Adelaide Crows Team Adelaide Crows
Defender Position Midfield
35 Career Games 124
Sturt Origin Oakleigh
November 6, 1988 Date of Birth July 25, 1988
26yr 2mth Age 26yr 5mth
180cm Height 181cm
83kg Weight 79kg
2009 National Draft Last Drafted In 2006 National Draft
Round 5, Pick #74 Last Draft Position Round 3, Pick #48
Adelaide Crows Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows
2014 Stats for Season 2014
17 Games 19
9.1 Kicks Per Game 8.8
6.4 Handballs Per Game 9.2
15.5 Disposals Per Game 18.0
3.8 Marks Per Game 3.0
0.5 Goals Per Game 0.6
0.9 Behinds Per Game 0.4
2.6 Tackles Per Game 4.0
0 Hitouts Per Game 0
2.2 Inside 50s Per Game 3.3
0.2 Goal Assists Per Game 0.4
0.8 Frees For Per Game 1.2
0.6 Frees Against Per Game 0.7
5.7 Contested Possessions Per Game 6.7
10.2 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 11.8
10.3 Effective Disposals Per Game 14.2
66.5% Effective Disposals % Per Game 78.9%
2.4 Clangers Per Game 1.6
0.4 Contested Marks Per Game 0.3
0.7 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.2
1.4 Clearances Per Game 1.7
1.8 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.6
2.0 One Percenters Per Game 1.8
0.6 Bounces Per Game 2.0
69.2 Time On Ground % Per Game 81.0
$374,526 AFL Fantasy Price $344,691
64.8 AFL Fantasy Score Per Game 73.2
$410,500 Supercoach Price $368,400
65.4 Supercoach Score Per Game 81.2
 
Peter J said:
Hasn't transferred to well but BM stats on left with Dmac on right. There's actually not a lot of difference with Dmac higher disposal eff reflective of going by hand more than foot. Also BM % suffered a bit through some inaccurate goal kicking.

By and large they are quite similar in size, age and stats, with the main difference being 1 has played 124 games and 1 just 35, and 1 is on a 4 year 1.6m deal and 1 struggles year by year.

I'd argue that BM was a more effective threat to the opposition last year and on the basis of games played, has significantly more upside that Dmac. The sooner we accept Dmac is an overhyped dud the better off we will be

Player Statistics Comparison
Brodie Martin Name David MacKay
Adelaide Crows Team Adelaide Crows
Defender Position Midfield
35 Career Games 124
Sturt Origin Oakleigh
November 6, 1988 Date of Birth July 25, 1988
26yr 2mth Age 26yr 5mth
180cm Height 181cm
83kg Weight 79kg
2009 National Draft Last Drafted In 2006 National Draft
Round 5, Pick #74 Last Draft Position Round 3, Pick #48
Adelaide Crows Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows
2014 Stats for Season 2014
17 Games 19
9.1 Kicks Per Game 8.8
6.4 Handballs Per Game 9.2
15.5 Disposals Per Game 18.0
3.8 Marks Per Game 3.0
0.5 Goals Per Game 0.6
0.9 Behinds Per Game 0.4
2.6 Tackles Per Game 4.0
0 Hitouts Per Game 0
2.2 Inside 50s Per Game 3.3
0.2 Goal Assists Per Game 0.4
0.8 Frees For Per Game 1.2
0.6 Frees Against Per Game 0.7
5.7 Contested Possessions Per Game 6.7
10.2 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 11.8
10.3 Effective Disposals Per Game 14.2
66.5% Effective Disposals % Per Game 78.9%
2.4 Clangers Per Game 1.6
0.4 Contested Marks Per Game 0.3
0.7 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.2
1.4 Clearances Per Game 1.7
1.8 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.6
2.0 One Percenters Per Game 1.8
0.6 Bounces Per Game 2.0
69.2 Time On Ground % Per Game 81.0
$374,526 AFL Fantasy Price $344,691
64.8 AFL Fantasy Score Per Game 73.2
$410,500 Supercoach Price $368,400
65.4 Supercoach Score Per Game 81.2
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Stats don't lie. Brodie will get plenty of SANFL time this year. Can't see him in best 22, but may play a few games due to injury or poor form.
 
Schulzycrow said:
Not saying he isn't atm. I think he has more upside than Martin thou.
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And that's a common position - I'm just wondering how it's supported. Given Martin has played 35 games and MacKay 124. I can see an argument that having played just 35 games there's scope for BM to improve - any player can improve after just 35 games.

How does a midfielder who has played 124 games still have upside? What's left to see that we havent already seen?

Fair dinkum he will be coming up for 200 games and we will still be discussing his upcoming break out year.
 
Peter J said:
And that's a common position - I'm just wondering how it's supported. Given Martin has played 35 games and MacKay 124. I can see an argument that having played just 35 games there's scope for BM to improve - any player can improve after just 35 games.

How does a midfielder who has played 124 games still have upside? What's left to see that we havent already seen?

Fair dinkum he will be coming up for 200 games and we will still be discussing his upcoming break out year.
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Think Mackay has been used in a defensive wingman role the past few years and is the reason why I think Walsh will allow him some more freedom to take the game on more. Don't think he will ever be the star we hope for ala Brodie Smith, but Walsh will demand more of him than Sando did imo.
 
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