No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[cymarak]

Bringing me back to my original point. We've aired the AFL's dirty laundry when the AFL hold the final say on infraction notices. Given their track record on "investigation" the penalties have probably already been decided.

A couple of points:

1. The tribunal that will decide players' fates (if it gets to that) is supposedly independent of the AFL executive / Commission
2. Even if the tribunal isn't really independent, the AFL probably has more to lose from long suspensions than from short suspensions (or no suspensions) - the AFL's narrative all along has been to blame the support staff, so I suspect they would be happy to see minimal or no suspensions for players, to minimise the impact on the footy season

 

[ghostdog]

I have been reading this thread every day since it was created and then the previous thread before that, but I have never felt the need to post until now.

Essendon is a strong football club and it will face the challenges as it arises but it is a shame some of you are not as strong as the club. Why should James Hird stand down? Because you are sick of hearing about it? Harden up princesses.

This club and it's supporters should fight and let the truth come out. We should be united behind the club and everyone at the club until this reaches a final conclusion and not one minute before. James Hird is a champion and hero of this club and he deserves the opportunity to clear his name and prove his innocence. To this point the players and James have been denied this opportunity and true justice as this saga plays out to serve the interest of others. I don't know a single person who's heart bleeds for Essendon more than James Hird himself.

As rines has stated, apart from hearing about this in the media how is the club doing badly? The club has more than enough benefactors to ensure this saga will not hurt us financially, as Little has already stated. We have a proud history and a promising future if the players are able to prove their innocence.

If it is proven the club has done something wrong then the club is answerable ONLY to us, the members. I cannot wait for 2015 memberships to go on sale.

I don't think Hird should stand down. What I have said is that, given reports that he has said if any player is issued an infraction, that he would feel compelled to stand down, the situation may be untenable if he remains. Under those circumstances I would not be unhappy, but I think he should stay. That said, I'm now unsure where the report that Hird even said that has come from...

I hope the club has the financial depth to deal with this, but won't be upset if the matter is not pursued, due to financial reasons.

I also can't wait for 2015 memberships to go on sale.

 

[drew_j]

A couple of points:

1. The tribunal that will decide players' fates (if it gets to that) is supposedly independent of the AFL executive / Commission
2. Even if the tribunal isn't really independent, the AFL probably has more to lose from long suspensions than from short suspensions (or no suspensions) - the AFL's narrative all along has been to blame the support staff, so I suspect they would be happy to see minimal or no suspensions for players, to minimise the impact on the footy season

The supposedly part's what gets me. These people would be hired by who? What's the appointment process? Whats stopping the AFL appointing Kevin Barltett? AFAIK the panel will be decided by Mark ******* Evans! I know there will be rules for this sort of thing, such as legal experience, but one thing is for sure it'll be a stacked boys club. Point 2 is Moot. We're in the position where it is a real risk because we put our selves there. It was a BONEHEAD move.

 

[Kong]

And the day after the Best & Fairest , night of nights....

The Age back page, with a half page story about the Brownlow next to it...campaigners

Rivals run out of patience with Essendon

Jon Pierik, Michael Gleeson and Caroline Wilson 8:30pm Essendon has lost the support of the other 17 AFL clubs over drugs investigation.

I wasn't aware that we ever had it?

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Said it from the start of the court action I thought it was a bad idea and the last 30 pages is why. It gave the opportunity once again for the AFL to change the narrative. You think Gil would have let that 50% BS out had the the media environment been what it was before or even during the court action announcement? No way. I've been reading this thread for over 1000 pages and am starting to see some of the most staunch supporters finally show cracks. It's getting to straw that breaks the camels back territory.

I've also been following all the facts and processes about how show causes/infractions are supposed to work out through this thread but regardless of burden of proof the bottom line is that the final say lies with the AFL. Does anyone really think that even with the flimsiest evidence of drug taking that after the EFC aired all the AFL's dirty laundry via the trial the AFL wouldn't just take the opportunity to get come-upance? Even if we won the trial. Have a look at the afl's track record. They are a law unto themselves. They will hang players out to dry to get their man, of this I have no doubt.

I don't wish to see James Hird or anyone at EFC get shafted over this complete cluter****, but if he/they do I'll have absolutely no sympathy for them (besides players of course). They managed to wrangle the rod they were getting beating with off the enemy, decided to gloat about it then gave it back. That piece of s**t Wilson was right about one thing. James Hird has been extremely poorly advised throughout this process.

Did you enjoy seeing us play in finals (albeit not the game so much)? If so court action was necessary. There is a chance that while the players fight this crap they would be forced to stand down i.e. can't play which means missing finals again (remember the AFL propaganda machine parroting this late in the season). So isn't it better we deal with this now than during the season?

 

[Pevers-Legend]

The supposedly part's what gets me. These people would be hired by who? What's the appointment process? Whats stopping the AFL appointing Kevin Barltett? AFAIK the panel will be decided by Mark ******* Evans! I know there will be rules for this sort of thing, such as legal experience, but one thing is for sure it'll be a stacked boys club. Point 2 is Moot. We're in the position where it is a real risk because we put our selves there. It was a BONEHEAD move.

We appeal and go to court. This time it would not be a hail-mary type attempt, if the evidence is as we believe.

Also this would be for players livelihoods so it would be rabid in the court room for the players. It would be an unmitigated disaster for the AFL and would cost them a lot for their so called image.

Optics will yet again play its part in this mess.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

I wasn't aware that we ever had it?

Does "thank * they're not looking at us" count as support?

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Believing that is just naive.

Do you honestly think that so-called journos who are able to write 1-2 articles a week (if not more) at 30 minutes' work a pop (no research, no quotes, just grandstanding) will suddenly stop and go back to doing hard work? No, of course not. They'll go after Little, they'll go after Watson, they'll go after Thompson.

Once they get a taste of blood the frenzy will increase.

 

[keepzitreal]

Once they get a taste of blood the frenzy will increase.

We've been bleeding for a while now. Will it ever stop? Don't see how anything can be salvaged now.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

We've been bleeding for a while now. Will it ever stop? Don't see how anything can be salvaged now.

We fight and beat the SALADA trumped up charges. They have nothing once that happens.

 

[drew_j]

We appeal and go to court. This time it would not be a hail-mary type attempt, if the evidence is as we believe.

Also this would be for players livelihoods so it would be rabid in the court room for the players. It would be an unmitigated disaster for the AFL and would cost them a lot for their so called image.

Optics will yet again play its part in this mess.

All of which could have happened if you just let the natural course of "justice" happen. And for what? To be eternally know as the team of drug cheats that hides behind a court finding. Instead we hit the hornets nest for some sort term gratification.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

All of which could have happened if you just let the natural course of "justice" happen. And for what? To be eternally know as the team of drug cheats that hides behind a court finding. Instead we hit the hornets nest for some sort term gratification.

Short term gratification is letting the players play finals, the same game last year we were wrongly denied.

Yeah nah.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Weren't we all talking about how Hird just took that suspension because the players wanted it over?

Keeping him on is the club basically saying "We're okay with what you did" IMO.

I have no problem with anything Hird did and neither did any/many here at the time. I have major concerns over Hamilton/Dank/Robinson however.

 

[Kakkle]

Then go and support them.

Seriously.. I'll give you some options:
Bulldogs: The eternal optimists believe their list will, at some point, challenge for a flag. Form and history suggest you won't have to bother saving money for GF tickets anytime soon.. let alone attend a Family Day after winning a flag.

Richmond: Two years of dragging their sorry asses into the finals has seen the Roar return to these recently meek kitty cat's.. however both times has seen despatched in short order. Plenty to like about following Richmond.. you will get most Septembers free altogether. Oh and development is severely hindered by old facilities that need a serious revamp so don't expect much growth out of the youngsters.

Adelaide: Missed finals for a couple of years and currently have no coach. This was due to the internal factions at the club that routinely fight over control of this conglomerate of warring parties. The advantage of following the Crows is getting to spend lots of time with people without teeth. Currently rumours that up to 8 of their starting 22 want to leave and there is no young talent coming through thanks to the SALARY CAP AND DRAFT TAMPERING penalties applied for them DELIBERATELY cheating. At least you'll might get to watch Dangerfield for one more season.. if he doesn't leave this year.

Brisbane: Enjoy watching a team that won three flags on the back of the AFL assistance package and now struggles to retain enough players to fill its team sheet. Exciting future ahead with some of their young cattle, but deep instability at the top level, lack of membership and fans leaves the club perilously close to collapse most of the time. Biggest decision will choosing which version of the Lion you want on the jumper.

Carlton: After being found guilty of the biggest salary cap rort in AFL history, the club was decimated by draft and financial sanctions. Only now trying to recover from the board level collapse that has dragged leadership decisions into the mud. The legacy? They are still paying off a grand stand that was never used. Enjoy having Septembers free for the next five years while they attempt their third rebuild around the glowing pillars of Gibbs and Kruezer. Have no key position players so you won't have to worry about whether to play them forward or back.

St Kilda: Great to follow if you love driving. Seaford is lovely and Thai Beach Noodles are the best going around! Apparently moving back to somewhere that resembles a good location but facilities mean that developing talent will be next to impossible. The club knows this and has already started by trading away stars to get high enough draft picks that hopefully don't need as much development to reach a good level. Enjoy watching a lot of blow outs with your new club cause they have lots of pain heading their way over the next five years. Whilst you will get to enjoy Septembers off, your Octobers will be busy defending players against allegations of all sorts of behaviour.. lovely! Oh, and be prepared to open your wallet a fair bit if you want the club to stay solvent, they are now fully dependent on AFL handouts so bankruptcy may be an option. Irony would be that you now support the only club to have a player suspended for doping violations in the last ten years... but all good!

Melbourne: Well this team will be so glad to have your support you might get a personal visit from Roos. Best part is that you can literally have any seat in the house when you want to go to the game! Also no queues at the Toilet or Pie Stand as there is only around 10,000 people to share watching your team get flogged most weeks. Bonus is getting to listen to Roosy on club nights talk up "Wattsy and Jonesy and Vineeeeey"! Be prepared to acknowledge that your new club hasn't had a stable board for 50 years and is now, by defacto, run directly by AFL House. Also supposedly trying to pay back the fine they received for BRINGING THE GAME INTO DISREPUTE by 'not tanking'.. so at least you will be familiar with the charge and how 'robust' it is at keeping our good game safe from rogue clubs. Good news is that even if your players are linked to doping allegations, you are such a non-entity that no one will bother to write 1000's of stories about it. As always feel free to book in September holidays for the next decade, you won't have anything to worry about.

Collingwood: Great news is that you will still have some blockbusters to attend! Joining this large family has got the benefit of a very slimming look in the Black and White. Watching Pendlebury and Swan go about their business is fun, as is trying to pick the difference between the latter and Beams. Good news is that it may not be a problem forever with Beams likely to leave and Swan likely to be arrested. Enjoy 10 years of pure mediocrity as your club completes a full list rebuild, but will be quicker than other clubs because at least there are some facilities to use. Best part is having a fan forum to discuss your views with the club, helpful to deal with the ongoing saga regarding the choice of coach they made three years ago... Another bonus is having your President as a media personality, helps to keep the narrative off your own problems and firmly fixed on other clubs. Disappointing part is the rampant racism and homophobia, but the exodus of senior players over the last two years should improve that somewhat...

Sydney: Good times ahead! You will get to watch stars galore knowing that you know follow a club 9.8% 'better' than everyone else! Saddest part will be watching them slide in mediocrity once the glass of Coke is finished. Still have plenty to like with crowds regularly in excess of 20,000 now turning up to watch the team! Biggest worry will be seeing how long Franklin can last without picking up his third strike.. or blowing his knee and forcing you to use 10% of your salary cap for 10 years paying him out. Nervous times. Like so many of your other options, money is short but the AFL is there with helping hand to ensure you survive from year to year.

So plenty of options mate.. pick one and have fun!

Meanwhile I'll keep supporting the club I love and keep seeing all the positives about our future. Right now my club isn't guilty of doing anything other than trusting the wrong people, at the wrong time and getting caught up in the biggest cluster**** in history. I'll just focus on our world leading facilities, great list, loyal players, strong supporters, excellent coaching and bright future.

.....


How do you actually have time to write this all up?

 

[cymarak]

The supposedly part's what gets me. These people would be hired by who? What's the appointment process? Whats stopping the AFL appointing Kevin Barltett? AFAIK the panel will be decided by Mark ******* Evans! I know there will be rules for this sort of thing, such as legal experience, but one thing is for sure it'll be a stacked boys club.

Yep, it's impossible to get a truly 100% independent tribunal.

Even if they're not associated with the AFL in any way before the hearing, they'll be chosen by the AFL and paid by the AFL, and so there'll be a subconscious interest in 'pleasing' the AFL, so as to be considered for future work.

They may still make the 'right' decision, but there'll inevitably be some degree of leaning in their thinking towards what they think the AFL will want.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I have no problem with anything Hird did and neither did any/many here at the time. I have major concerns over Hamilton/Dank/Robinson however.

Hird devised and claimed to oversee a program that led to unknown (according to the club) substances being injected into our players, our players being exposed to unnecessary and unacceptable health risks, he overruled guys like Reid and (apparently) Thompson, he did this under the (apparently mistaken) belief other clubs were pushing/breaking the rules in this area and we needed to push the boundaries too.

All of this has led the reputation of our club being destroyed, has led to unprecedented punishments being handed out, having a well earned finals spot taken away, millions of dollars of fines, millions of dollars in legal fees, worried parents, players leaving the club, potentially players not wanting to come to Essendon that may otherwise have considered it, draft penalties, unimaginable pressure on the playing group for the better part of two seasons, and potentially long term suspensions of a large part of our playing list.

All of that goes back to the program Hird devised and failed to oversee properly. At some point the club needs to hold him responsible for all of this IMO.

 

[keepzitreal]

We fight and beat the SALADA trumped up charges. They have nothing once that happens.

Do we really believe the government will allow that to happen? It opens a huge can of worms on Australian sport that they will never let happen even if we are right

. I had faith the whole way, but after losing Paddy I'm starting to think that we have to hit the reset button. There is no longer light at the end of the tunnel.

Imagine Dyson Heppell has to miss 2 years of football. Hurley. Joey. We could lose them all. I had hope... but now I'm pretty gutted. Writing is on the wall I reckon.

 

[drew_j]

Short term gratification is letting the players play finals, the same game last year we were wrongly denied.

Yeah nah.

This is the only point I can see worthy of the risk, but hardly worth it if you're all banned for 2 years no? But then you'd also have to have been sure we'd even make it, hardly a guarantee. I get your point but if this was their rational they are either clairvoyants to the point that we shouldn't be in this position, or risk takers to the point they shouldn't be in the position.

I'm not sure but was was giving the players the opportunity to play finals part of the rational for launching court action? It's ringing a bell, but it in no way sways my opinion it was a stupid decision not worth the risks nor the reward.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Hird devised and claimed to oversee a program that led to unknown (according to the club) substances being injected into our players, our players being exposed to unnecessary and unacceptable health risks, he overruled guys like Reid and (apparently) Thompson, he did this under the (apparently mistaken) belief other clubs were pushing/breaking the rules in this area and we needed to push the boundaries too.

All of this has led the reputation of our club being destroyed, has led to unprecedented punishments being handed out, having a well earned finals spot taken away, millions of dollars of fines, millions of dollars in legal fees, worried parents, players leaving the club, potentially players not wanting to come to Essendon that may otherwise have considered it, draft penalties, unimaginable pressure on the playing group for the better part of two seasons, and potentially long term suspensions of a large part of our playing list.

All of that goes back to the program Hird devised and failed to oversee properly. At some point the club needs to hold him responsible for all of this IMO.

Can you provide the proof of this?

He definitely instigated it. But how did he devise it (given the club hired someone to do that) and why would he oversee it (given Hamilton was the manager for Robinson and ultimately Dank).

Just curious how you justify these sorts of statements?

 

[Pevers-Legend]

This is the only point I can see worthy of the risk, but hardly worth it if you're all banned for 2 years no? But then you'd also have to have been sure we'd even make it, hardly a guarantee. I get your point but if this was their rational they are either clairvoyants to the point that we shouldn't be in this position, or risk takers to the point they shouldn't be in the position.

I'm not sure but was was giving the players the opportunity to play finals part of the rational for launching court action? It's ringing a bell, but it in no way sways my opinion it was a stupid decision not worth the risks nor the reward.

Losing the court case does nothing to make it more likely we will be banned?

Did you read what I said? The players can be stood down during the process (before the final finding). Thus they can be proven innocent and still miss matches at the discretion of the AFL.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Can you provide the proof of this?

He definitely instigated it. But how did he devise it (given the club hired someone to do that) and why would he oversee it (given Hamilton was the manager for Robinson and ultimately Dank).

Just curious how you justify these sorts of statements?

If you really want to get into semantics but:

Hird was aware that he had advocated to Robinson and Dank that they devise and implement a supplements program

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Do we really believe the government will allow that to happen? It opens a huge can of worms on Australian sport that they will never let happen even if we are right

. I had faith the whole way, but after losing Paddy I'm starting to think that we have to hit the reset button. There is no longer light at the end of the tunnel.

Imagine Dyson Heppell has to miss 2 years of football. Hurley. Joey. We could lose them all. I had hope... but now I'm pretty gutted. Writing is on the wall I reckon.

It would be messy going to court, but ultimately yes I believe we would win due to standard of proof required (and all evidence to date indicates that it is circumstantial at best - i.e. charges dismissed).

 

[rines]

Losing the court case does nothing to make it more likely we will be banned?

Did you read what I said? The players can be stood down during the process (before the final finding). Thus they can be proven innocent and still miss matches at the discretion of the AFL.

Sadly I knew people were going to over-react to the findings.. did try and warn against it but to no avail.

The players are no more, or less, likely to be suspended because of the court action we took. yes the 'first' deal is off the table.. but it would be 'back' on the table ASAP if the players indicated they wanted it.

Next step is to push ASADA to an ADRVP hopefully while still in the off-season.. that way IF it goes badly we can appeal/take it to tribunal before the season starts.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

If you really want to get into semantics but:

Semantics? No, no semantics. AS I said, he instigated it, but from there he left it to professionals to deal with, and for Reidy to oversee the whole process. Hence why he walked away from it as a) it was not his job and b) he knew the people in charge/involved he could trust i.e. Reid and Hammer.

 

[keepzitreal]

Can you provide the proof of this?

He definitely instigated it. But how did he devise it (given the club hired someone to do that) and why would he oversee it (given Hamilton was the manager for Robinson and ultimately Dank).

Just curious how you justify these sorts of statements?

I think it's obvious that a lot of teams had been pushing sports science boundaries for a long time. Up until the program, we were always undersized, Hirdy wanted to put size on them quickly but legally. Only reason we had to come clean was because of the Federal investigation. Just bad timing.

Our injection program probably was overkill but let's not be naive enough to think other teams weren't jabbing players every now and then with Peptides and what not. A lot of teams, West Coast, Adelaide, Gold Coast, Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, were getting big pretty quick.

AFL promising us that players wouldn't get infractions if we complied with Asada is what killed us. Should have said.. Peptides.. what Peptides?

Thats why we went to court.. and are totally screwed now...