Certified Legendary Thread Covid, Life, UFOs, Food, & Wordle :(

[Black_White]

It’s interesting the debate on here about who has control of who enters the country and where they go.
For me, it’s the Feds.
Because only the Feds can take people at the border and put them into immigration detention.
So the laws exist that they can direct incoming passengers into a federal facility.
And those facilities exist, so why have they not done the right thing and taken control of our borders?
For our Liberal Federal Government, I suppose they have alway been more focused on boats than airports!

 

[Black_White]

Good news.

The first real-world data for COVID vaccines is in - and it’s really good news

The first real-world data for COVID-19 vaccines is in – and the vaccines’ effectiveness have once-again shot past scientists’ expectations.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Black_White]

Our gold, (plated) standard contact tracing system.

Cracks emerged in digital contact tracing system days before five-day lockdown

Victoria’s contact tracing system had a hiccup in the crucial days before the state was placed into lockdown last month.

www.theage.com.au

This is what happens when lazy fat cat government employees are given high risk tasks.
Been calling for a complete overhaul of the DHHS and associated departments for months. If this means paying above the odds to get competent people from the private sector, then just do it.

 

[sr36]

No, that’s incorrect. The federal government has control on the international border not the states and there never has been control of entry into the country by the states. All the states did was mandate quarantine because the federal government sat on its hands and did nothing in this space. Once passengers were granted entry into the country (by Border Force) and passed through customs, the state health regulations kicked in for quarantine. Under the constitution and federation, quarantine remains a federal responsibility but inaction at the federal level meant the states had to step up. Once an arrival finished their quarantine, they were free to move about their arrival city or transfer to another state if a resident of that state. Depending on the individual state, additional quarantine may have been required if the arrival city was a hotspot at the time (ie Sydney, as Melbourne wasn’t taking international arrivals at that point). Flights were being cancelled due to arrival caps and fluctuations in the caps not because Qld or WA had closed borders to the rest of the country. Victoria asked the federal govt not to receive international arrivals whilst dealing with the 2nd wave and that was agreed to by Morrison. If Morrison had said no then Victoria would have had no choice and international arrivals would have coming into Melbourne.
Perhaps you are confusing the closure of state borders to freedom of movement within the country with international arrival caps. Overseas travelers were never restricted in domestic transfer after their quarantine, provided they went straight to the airport for their transit from the hotel.

I'm not confusing the two. If you weren't a resident of Queensland, you couldn't take an international flight into Queensland. And I'm not sure why you think that the federal government has tried to pressure states into taking more passengers or some passengers in the case of Victoria, if the Feds do have control of this. When someone lands at an airport, the Feds control who is allowed entry into Australia. But that power has been surpassed by states controlling whether people can land at a border.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I'm not confusing the two. If you weren't a resident of Queensland, you couldn't take an international flight into Queensland. And I'm not sure why you think that the federal government has tried to pressure states into taking more passengers or some passengers in the case of Victoria, if the Feds do have control of the international borders. When someone lands at an airport, the Feds control who is allowed entry into Australia. But that power has been surpassed by states controlling whether people can land at a border.

Yep. The states determine the numbers who can enter at each port.

 

[DinoSoar]

I'm not confusing the two. If you weren't a resident of Queensland, you couldn't take an international flight into Queensland. And I'm not sure why you think that the federal government has tried to pressure states into taking more passengers or some passengers in the case of Victoria, if the Feds do have control of this. When someone lands at an airport, the Feds control who is allowed entry into Australia. But that power has been surpassed by states controlling whether people can land at a border.

A returning Aus citizen or permanent resident could absolutely get a flight to Brisbane or Perth, irrespective of their city of residence. There was no condition on that, and given the political heat and media focus on citizens stuck overseas waiting to get home, there was never this further limitation. Also, the Morrison government was most definitely applying pressure on the states to accept more arrivals - WA, SA & Qld were all “negotiated” into reluctantly increasing their numbers. It was at this point that NT joined the party with Howard Springs being opened up as a quarantine facility, late Sept/early Oct from memory. We all know why Vic was exempt from this.

States do not, and never have, control international arrivals. Now, the feds may not push the point given they have abrogated/evaded their responsibilities in this area and it is a politically expedient distraction to allow the state premiers to take any and all heat on pandemic management. Doesn’t change the facts, though.

 

[sr36]

A returning Aus citizen or permanent resident could absolutely get a flight to Brisbane or Perth, irrespective of their city of residence. There was no condition on that, and given the political heat and media focus on citizens stuck overseas waiting to get home, there was never this further limitation. Also, the Morrison government was most definitely applying pressure on the states to accept more arrivals - WA, SA & Qld were all “negotiated” into reluctantly increasing their numbers. It was at this point that NT joined the party with Howard Springs being opened up as a quarantine facility, late Sept/early Oct from memory. We all know why Vic was exempt from this.

States do not, and never have, control international arrivals. Now, the feds may not push the point given they have abrogated/evaded their responsibilities in this area and it is a politically expedient distraction to allow the state premiers to take any and all heat on pandemic management. Doesn’t change the facts, though.

My wife was flying back to Adelaide in June. Flights were a nightmare with flights getting cancelled or never really existing, but we were fortunate to have a few options. We booked Air NZ to Melbourne when they opened up their flight to Shanghai. But then we know what happened in Melbourne, so she changed it to Brisbane because you could enter from Queensland to SA without quarantine. So we thought she'd be able to land in Brisbane and do the quarantine there before flying on to Adelaide. The next day she received a phone call from Air NZ asking her to send confirmation of Queensland residency. She contacted the Queensland government who confirmed that she could not take that flight. So she changed the flight to Sydney and was facing double quarantine. Fortunately South Australia approved a flight from Singapore to Adelaide and she was able to get a flight that connected from Shanghai. And fortunately both flights flew.

Perhaps Air NZ and the lady in Qland government got it wrong, because rules were changing so fast that no one really knew what was happening, but overall the Feds stamped the passports, but when it came to flights, the states ran the show. And the fact that the Feds were pressuring the states to allow more flights shows that it was the states in control. The states really controlled the borders by controlling the flights. All the Feds could do was apply pressure, unless they were willing to roll the troops in.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

A returning Aus citizen or permanent resident could absolutely get a flight to Brisbane or Perth, irrespective of their city of residence. There was no condition on that, and given the political heat and media focus on citizens stuck overseas waiting to get home, there was never this further limitation. Also, the Morrison government was most definitely applying pressure on the states to accept more arrivals - WA, SA & Qld were all “negotiated” into reluctantly increasing their numbers. It was at this point that NT joined the party with Howard Springs being opened up as a quarantine facility, late Sept/early Oct from memory. We all know why Vic was exempt from this.

States do not, and never have, control international arrivals. Now, the feds may not push the point given they have abrogated/evaded their responsibilities in this area and it is a politically expedient distraction to allow the state premiers to take any and all heat on pandemic management. Doesn’t change the facts, though.

I don't understand your argument anymore, DinoSaur. You're agreeing that states restrictions on numbers limit the arrivals yet at the same time say they are controlled by the Feds. I feel like we have hit a brick wall beyond which the discussion can proceed no further.

 

[TradeDraft]

Our gold, (plated) standard contact tracing system.

Cracks emerged in digital contact tracing system days before five-day lockdown

Victoria’s contact tracing system had a hiccup in the crucial days before the state was placed into lockdown last month.

www.theage.com.au

Maybe there should not NO MORE International Returns back to Melbourne Then

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Maybe there should not NO MORE International Returns back to Melbourne Then

Why stop there? Perhaps ban all incoming international flights across Australia, which will also result in a halt on flights out of Australia because no airline will fly in empty planes. Let the Aussies stranded overseas get out on the streets and beg off the locals - many will probably get arrested for vagrancy or working without a work permit and be imprisoned which will at least give them a meal of sorts. Those who escape arrest can set up GoFund pages and rely on the generosity of others to stay alive.

 

[sr36]

Why stop there? Perhaps ban all incoming international flights across Australia, which will also result in a halt on flights out of Australia because no airline will fly in empty planes. Let the Aussies stranded overseas get out on the streets and beg off the locals - many will probably get arrested for vagrancy or working without a work permit and be imprisoned which will at least give them a meal of sorts. Those who escape arrest can set up GoFund pages and rely on the generosity of others to stay alive.

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Yep. Australia should become an exporter of refugees because we're not capable of separating people in quarantine. And then we can still boast about being the Kings of covid.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[Good Horse]

It is an absolute disgrace what we have done as a nation to our own here. We should have brought them all home by now, and made it a national priority and paid for it. This is an emergency and if we want to slam the border shut we should have worn the consequences and not let them fall on individuals.

Just in Vic, if we had aquired block booking on Aitken Hill, Lancemore Hill, Werribee mansion and Lindenderry for example, maybe RACV resorts Cape Schank and Healesville, we would have had hundreds of beds at good standard in locations easily cut off from the central city and easier to police and have live in accom for workers, while buying time to build purpose built facilities. It would end up cheaper than the cluster* we have gotten. The whole design of what we were trying to achieve was a series of stupid compromises instead which ****ed everyone.

Total ponies, all of them.

Other options - there are hundreds of beds at University of Melbourne Dookie campus that could have been used last year. Dorm style, but fine and the campus is 20 minutes from Shepparton in the middle of paddocks, and the site has its own dining facilities. Ditto accommodation at the Creswick campus.

Nobody used their brains and got creative

 

[DinoSoar]

I don't understand your argument anymore, DinoSaur. You're agreeing that states restrictions on numbers limit the arrivals yet at the same time say they are controlled by the Feds. I feel like we have hit a brick wall beyond which the discussion can proceed no further.

Not really, it’s quite murky and mired in the politics. International borders and quarantine are federal responsibilities, however if we cast our minds back 12mths the feds were really slow to react and close the borders or come up with any quarantine response, so the premiers (largely Andrews & Berejiklian) broke ranks and imposed restrictions based on state health legislation. This morphed into the state governments managing quarantine on “behalf” of the federal government, however the reality of it was that the premiers were quite content to control it themselves. This doesn’t take away from the fact that international borders and quarantine are federal responsibilities and if they so choose, could take over running it for the entire country. We all know that they won’t because it’s easy to sledge the states from the sidelines, all care and no responsibility mindset.

So, we come to the current situation - states request or suggest capacity for quarantine arrivals at national cabinet and it gets negotiated and agreed by the feds. Nothing stops Morrison denying the request or imposing increased numbers but in practice, he isn’t going to refuse or go too hard coz if he does, the states will go “We’ve not got the space, staff and infrastructure to increase capacity so you better pony up the infrastructure and staff to run it yourself seeing as it is, you know, your responsibility after all”. A political shitfight he doesn’t want to have but there have been concessions made by SA and WA to increase, rather reluctantly from recollection. In summary, it’s a bit of a mess in terms of the practicality of it and yes, the states have a say in the numbers and have a strong voice at the table but are not the final arbiters. It is simply not correct to suggest the states have the power over international borders and can (& did) close them.

 

[TradeDraft]

It is an absolute disgrace what we have done as a nation to our own here. We should have brought them all home by now, and made it a national priority and paid for it. This is an emergency and if we want to slam the border shut we should have worn the consequences and not let them fall on individuals.

Just in Vic, if we had aquired block booking on Aitken Hill, Lancemore Hill, Werribee mansion and Lindenderry for example, we would have had hundreds of beds at good standard in locations easily cut off from the central city and easier to police and have live in accom for workers, while bying time to build purpose built facilities. It would end up cheaper than the clusterfu** we have gotten. The whole design of what we were trying to achieve was a series of stupid compromises instead whcih f’ed everyone.

Total ponies, all of them.

Well Numbers of Cases could been a Lot Higher IF we brought tons back at a Time. So you been happy to possibly still be in Lockdown for that?

Maybe need to put the Returns far away from People as Possible so they don't to be Stuck inside all the Time and Minmize the Risk of people Spreading it in the Community when they work there

 

[Good Horse]

Well Numbers of Cases could been a Lot Higher IF we brought tons back at a Time.

Maybe need to put the Returns far away from People as Possible so they don't to be Stuck inside all the Time and Minmize the Risk of people Spreading it in the Community when they work there

Only if we didnt design it right TD. If the returnees were kept at properly managed facilities outside the CBD with workers staying on site, the problems would have been managed.

The key elements needed were

- The sites should have been remote from built up areas where possible
- Staff should live on site for a tour of duty with quarantine and testing, like a "FIFO" without the fly.

Having crap 4 star motels in the CBD without amenities on site, and casual staff in and out and all over the place, was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[TradeDraft]

Only if we didnt design it right TD. If the returnees were kept at properly managed facilities outside the CBD with workers staying on site, the problems would have been managed.

The key elements needed were

- The sites should have been remote from built up areas where possible
- Staff should live on site for a tour of duty with quarantine and testing, like a "FIFO" without the fly.

Having crap 4 star motels in the CBD without amenities on site, and casual staff in and out and all over the place, was a disaster waiting to happen.

I 100% Agree with the Works staying on Site as that would lower the Risk and also not keeping it in the CBD with Tons of People Around.

I really like your Idea how it should/still be done

 

[DinoSoar]

My wife was flying back to Adelaide in June. Flights were a nightmare with flights getting cancelled or never really existing, but we were fortunate to have a few options. We booked Air NZ to Melbourne when they opened up their flight to Shanghai. But then we know what happened in Melbourne, so she changed it to Brisbane because you could enter from Queensland to SA without quarantine. So we thought she'd be able to land in Brisbane and do the quarantine there before flying on to Adelaide. The next day she received a phone call from Air NZ asking her to send confirmation of Queensland residency. She contacted the Queensland government who confirmed that she could not take that flight. So she changed the flight to Sydney and was facing double quarantine. Fortunately South Australia approved a flight from Singapore to Adelaide and she was able to get a flight that connected from Shanghai. And fortunately both flights flew.

Perhaps Air NZ and the lady in Qland government got it wrong, because rules were changing so fast that no one really knew what was happening, but overall the Feds stamped the passports, but when it came to flights, the states ran the show. And the fact that the Feds were pressuring the states to allow more flights shows that it was the states in control. The states really controlled the borders by controlling the flights. All the Feds could do was apply pressure, unless they were willing to roll the troops in.

Yes, there were instances reported in the media of airlines incorrectly interpreting the requirements and restrictions. The whole situation for those stuck overseas for the better part of 12mths is awful, at the mercy of predatory price gouging of the airlines. This is where the federal government should have stepped up and run chartered Qantas flights at full capacity through Howard Springs and Christmas Island to get those who wanted or needed to come back within a 4 - 6mth period, supplemented by the hotel quarantine program in the capital cities.

 

[sr36]

So, we come to the current situation - states request or suggest capacity for quarantine arrivals at national cabinet and it gets negotiated and agreed by the feds. Nothing stops Morrison denying the request or imposing increased numbers but in practice, he isn’t going to refuse or go too hard coz if he does, the states will go “We’ve not got the space, staff and infrastructure to increase capacity so you better pony up the infrastructure and staff to run it yourself seeing as it is, you know, your responsibility after all”. A political shitfight he doesn’t want to have but there have been concessions made by SA and WA to increase, rather reluctantly from recollection. In summary, it’s a bit of a mess in terms of the practicality of it and yes, the states have a say in the numbers and have a strong voice at the table but are not the final arbiters. It is simply not correct to suggest the states have the power over international borders and can (& did) close them.

In terms of legislation, I am sure you're correct. But in terms of the reality of what occurred - Victoria closed their international border and kept it closed well after the Feds wanted it open and the same thing is occurring now. Victoria is controlling the international borders that are in Victoria and wants to remain in control. You're probably right that Morrison could veto Victoria's control, but nobody actually appears to want that to occur. Not the states or the Feds.

The states got what they wanted and it was actually the most practical, quickest to implement solution to a problem that required a very quick solution. But all of a sudden the states are now blaming the Feds, because new strains have changed the dynamic and what they wanted and demanded now involves some difficulties for them. The hotel quarantine solution was a good one and has worked bloody well - except for some incompetence in Victoria where they didn't manage to seperate those in quarantine effectively. With the new strains, if it wasn't for the vaccine, we'd need to adjust the solution and look for or create facilities where all air ventilated outside, but that seems unnecessary at this point in time with the vaccine rollout having begun, so the States now know that the new strains makes leaks from hotel quarantine more likely and are simply trying to divert the blame that they will cop if there's a leak. It's a bullshit pre-emptive PR campaign.

 

[sr36]

Yes, there were instances reported in the media of airlines incorrectly interpreting the requirements and restrictions. The whole situation for those stuck overseas for the better part of 12mths is awful, at the mercy of predatory price gouging of the airlines. This is where the federal government should have stepped up and run chartered Qantas flights at full capacity through Howard Springs and Christmas Island to get those who wanted or needed to come back within a 4 - 6mth period, supplemented by the hotel quarantine program in the capital cities.

I wouldn't put any errors down to the airlines. Airlines don't interpret the rules, they ask directly because if they get it wrong they incur big costs. Airlines have copped a smashing in the press, but the airlines that we dealt with - Malaysia Air, Air NZ, Taiwan's national carrier and Singapore Air were great - infinitely better than the government departments - Australia and abroad - that we contacted. You couldn't get an answer regarding the latest entry or transit regulations from a government agency (Australia's were the worst in that they were the only ones who didn't try to find out an answer - check the website, you know the one that hasn't been updated) - the airlines were the only reliable source of information.

Perhaps Air NZ were wrong in our case, but when we went through the Q government, we were passed through about 12 people and finally got a definitive - no, you can't fly internationally into Queensland, without proof of Queensland residency. And if Air NZ were wrong, it's pretty clear that Air NZ were just acting on the advice that they were given - assumedly by a government department.

 

[sideswipe]

I wouldn't put any errors down to the airlines. Airlines have copped a smashing in the press, but the airlines that we dealt with - Malaysia Air, Air NZ, Taiwan's national carrier and Singapore Air were great - infinitely better than the government departments - Australia and abroad - that we contacted. You couldn't get an answer regarding the latest entry or transit regulations from a government agency (Australia's were the worst in that they were the only ones who didn't try to find out an answer - check the website, you know the one that hasn't been updated) - the airlines were the only reliable source of information.

Perhaps Air NZ were wrong in our case, but when we went through the Q government, we were passed through about 12 people and finally got a definitive - no, you can't fly internationally into Queensland, without proof of Queensland residency. And if Air NZ were wrong, it's pretty clear that Air NZ were just acting on the advice that they were given - assumedly by a government department.

No doubt there is some mixed messages. A nephew of mine and his gf headed over to Thailand from Oz a few months back. Did a fortnight’s quarantine in Bangers and is now kicking it on the beaches of Phuket.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sr36]

No doubt there is some mixed messages. A nephew of mine and his gf headed over to Thailand from Oz a few months back. Did a fortnight’s quarantine in Bangers and is now kicking it on the beaches of Phuket.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Love their work.

Throughout this, you've been able to leave Australia more easily than reports suggest and if you called a government agency, they had absolutely no idea what the rules were, or more importantly what actually occurred at the airport. Communication was shite. The only ones whose theory of what the rule was, that mattered, was the airlines who either let you on a flight or not and the immigration officials who were carrying the stamps. The rules they believed and enforced were much more important than what the rules supposedly were.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Love their work.

Throughout this, you've been able to leave Australia more easily than reports suggest and if you called a government agency, they had absolutely no idea what the rules were, or more importantly what actually occurred at the airport. Communication was sh*te. The only ones whose theory of what the rule was, that mattered, was the airlines who either let you on a flight or not and the immigration officials who were carrying the stamps. The rules they believed and enforced were much more important than what the rules supposedly were.

People have been able to leave if going for longer than 3 months but the very few countries that have allowed entry in our region (i.e. Thailand) have put restrictions on entry requirements and where you can go. Thailand has always been a possibility for a long term visa (you have to be out of Australia for 3 months) but insist on tourists staying in certain resorts and places. I would have taken up the offer where very few people did, but my main purpose in going to Thailand could not be met with prison visits closed. Under the rules of their long term tourist visa, there is nowhere I would want to go. I need to be in Bangkok not a beach or island. Beaches are wasted on me anyway at the best of times. I once worked 6 months in Phuket without once going in the water!

The airlines have not all been quite as cooperative in terms of interpreting government requirements as you suggest. People with work visas to Cambodia were required to have a positive covid negative test within 72 hours of departure, However several airlines chose to read this as within 72 hours of arrival, creating enormous difficulty for their passengers. Even showing them the official conditions could not dissuade them otherwise.

 

[sr36]

The airlines have not all been quite as cooperative in terms of interpreting government requirements as you suggest. People with work visas to Cambodia were required to have a positive covid negative test within 72 hours of departure, However several airlines chose to read this as within 72 hours of arrival, creating enormous difficulty for their passengers. Even showing them the official conditions could not dissuade them otherwise.

I still wouldn't assume that was the airlines. My work contacted Malaysian immigration twice over the same issue, but 48 hours, and got two entirely different answers. Rules were changing so rapidly that government departments often had no idea. The rules were often ambiguously written or translated and departments were giving conflicting advice. Airlines had to be cautious because if they went on the wrong person's advice or an out of date document and people landed without the right of entry, they risked people being stranded, not able to return to where they came from and no flights to where they could enter. If that occurred, they got smashed, paid massive costs and risked their future flights being cancelled.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I still wouldn't assume that was the airlines. My work contacted Malaysian immigration twice over the same issue, but 48 hours, and got two entirely different answers. Rules were changing so rapidly that government departments often had no idea. The rules were often ambiguously written or translated and departments were giving conflicting advice. Airlines had to be cautious because if they went on the wrong person's advice or an out of date document and people landed without the right of entry, they risked people being stranded, not able to return to where they came from and no flights to where they could enter. If that occurred, they got smashed, paid massive costs and risked their future flights being cancelled.

In this case, it was the two airlines. I followed trip reports closely over 3 months on expats visa page. The other airlines were fine.