Society/Culture Familial, Cultural, Attitudinal.

[RisingPhoenix]

Over the past two or so decades, we have seen the rise and rise of what I like to call the 'cultural' apologentsia.

Generally speaking, it is a term I feel is most relevant regarding societal conversations relating to our indigenous population, although I have also seen it bob up with our recent African arrivals.

Specifically, I'm referring to the manner in which certain anti-social or unprofessional behaviours are now seemingly adorned with the 'cultural' label as though it somehow mitigates or diminishes the individual from any, or a reduced, sense of personal responsibility for there actions.

For example, particularly within the public service, if an Aboriginal employee habitually fails to turn up to there place of employment - be it on time or straight out un-notified chronic absenteeism, you can be assured that you will hear the word 'culture' bandied about, with an emphasis on the need (IE - the white man) to be tolerant and 'educated' on the specific issues facing indigenous Australians etc etc.

For example, regarding this one....

http://m.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/...ropped-from-side/story-fniv5weh-1226890123769

Would a non-indigenous person who may well come from a complex and problematic background receive the same amount of 'sensitivity and understanding' as Simpson is predictably going to receive?

I doubt it.

Because let's be honest, if the Dockers just go whack and tear up his contract - which they absolutely should, they will likely end up grouped alongside Matt Rendell by certain sections, with another withering op-ed piece from Sir Adam Goodes no doubt thrown in for good measure.

But this isn't just about footy.

For mind this is an almost universal phenomenon across society regarding minority groups.

My point is where does the line get drawn?

Who decides where it's drawn?

And is this sort of treatment ultimately serving the best interests of the particular group which it is being used upon?

Personally, I think it's high time we raised the bar for them if anything.

Encourage them to aspire to greatness, rather than embrace the easy cop outs we have created for them.

By all means, be educated, take issues into consideration, but if we are ever to move forward,there ultimately must be one set of standards for us to abide by as a society.

 

[vealesy]

Being a member of society is not related to the employee/er relationship.

I would have thought NOT firing someone because of their race/culture is the very definition of racism.

Ive never worked with an aboriginal but if they were to constantly go on walkabout when they are required at work i would absolutely verbally blast them and have them fired.

The fact that you said the public service does not do this reeks of racism and incompetence.

What a waste of money.

"Public service" hah!!

 

[samFFC]

"them" "them "them"

Encourage them to aspire to greatness, rather than embrace the easy cop outs we have created for them.

By all means, be educated, take issues into consideration, but if we are ever to move forward,there ultimately must be one set of standards for us to abide by as a society.

Well if as Australians, we all get the first part right, then we can start talking about the second part. Because it is stands, there is a woefully inadequate desire from the Australian population at large, to achieve the change that is required for our nation to grow.

For instance, from a health perspective, consider the Social Determinants of Health framework.
And here's how Tony Abbott and the government think the Close the Gap campaign is progressing, with some good news and some bad news. Failure in these basic requirements over many decades of both Labor and Coalition governments have hamstrung further advancement of Indigenous people in Australia. Some has been achieved, but the more the Gap is Closed, the further to full equality we will be as a nation.

Feel free to actually do a bit of reading on the situation, such as at Health InfoNet (their major review documents are here), or perhaps consider watching 'Utopia' or any of the other various documentaries and films on the subject of Indigenous disadvantage. Then perhaps come back with a more informed opinion.

And just what do you think this "tough guy" approach is actually going to achieve anyway?

This post reeks of self-entitlement.

 

[skilts]

You are from West Australia.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Naggers annoy me.

 

[RisingPhoenix]

You are from West Australia.

Yawn

 

[RisingPhoenix]

"them" "them "them"





Well if as Australians, we all get the first part right, then we can start talking about the second part. Because it is stands, there is a woefully inadequate desire from the Australian population at large, to achieve the change that is required for our nation to grow.

For instance, from a health perspective, consider the Social Determinants of Health framework.
And here's how Tony Abbott and the government think the Close the Gap campaign is progressing, with some good news and some bad news. Failure in these basic requirements over many decades of both Labor and Coalition governments have hamstrung further advancement of Indigenous people in Australia. Some has been achieved, but the more the Gap is Closed, the further to full equality we will be as a nation.

Feel free to actually do a bit of reading on the situation, such as at Health InfoNet (their major review documents are here), or perhaps consider watching 'Utopia' or any of the other various documentaries and films on the subject of Indigenous disadvantage. Then perhaps come back with a more informed opinion.

And just what do you think this "tough guy" approach is actually going to achieve anyway?

This post reeks of self-entitlement.

Watch another John Pilger doco?

That's gonna help.

I'll wager my personal experience on the subject over yours any day champ.

 

[samFFC]

Watch another John Pilger doco?

That's gonna help.

I'll wager my personal experience on the subject over yours any day champ.

Why wager on your personal experience?

Why not look at the evidence, and then develop a more coherent and constructive argument for whatever it is you are arguing?

Also, I posted a number of links looking at carefully prepared reports from both Govt and non-Govt bodies. Have you had a read of those?

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Why wager on your personal experience?

Why not look at the evidence, and then develop a more coherent and constructive argument for whatever it is you are arguing?

Also, I posted a number of links looking at carefully prepared reports from both Govt and non-Govt bodies. Have you had a read of those?

Why wager on personal experience over a bunch of hot linked govy reports which aren't even really relevant to the specific issues I have raised in this thread?

Not sure if serious.

Like Pilger, you seem to think there is some evil conspiracy to deny the fact that there are grotesque, endemic health issues facing indigenous Australia, and that the Mums and Dads and the average punter alike walking the streets of 'white' Australia are in on it up to there bottom lip.

Absolutely irrelevant straw man garbage designed to bog down all discussion through one narrow channel and entirely on your own terms - and most cynically and manipulatively in an area no one is able to challenge or question without appearing to be racist.

If that's all you have to offer leave the thread.

 

[samFFC]

Why wager on personal experience over a bunch of hot linked govy reports which aren't even really relevant to the specific issues I have raised in this thread?

Not sure if serious.

.

Because everyone's personal experience is different, by definition. You have the feelings expressed in the OP, many others would have completely different views based on their own "personal experience".

Yet when someone does, you'll accuse them of believing in an "evil conspiracy", throwing "straw man garbage" into the debate, and thinking your right to "challenge or question" will lead to being labelled racist.

How is that allowing for an open discussion? Or is it only open discussion for people on the precondition that they agree with you?

Yes, there are different people in Australia. Yes, these different people have different familial, cultural and attitudinal values. So what?

No clear point was made in your OP, so you are leaving interpretation up to the reader. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Because everyone's personal experience is different, by definition. You have the feelings expressed in the OP, many others would have completely different views based on their own "personal experience".

Yet when someone does, you'll accuse them of believing in an "evil conspiracy", throwing "straw man garbage" into the debate, and thinking your right to "challenge or question" will lead to being labelled racist.

How is that allowing for an open discussion? Or is it only open discussion for people on the precondition that they agree with you?

Yes, there are different people in Australia. Yes, these different people have different familial, cultural and attitudinal values. So what?

No clear point was made in your OP, so you are leaving interpretation up to the reader. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

My point was clear.

Do we allow to much in the name of 'cultural understanding', and is it doing a disservice to those we are supposedly most concerned about in the first place.

It's not Blackcat stuff mate.

 

[samFFC]

My point was clear.

Do we allow to much in the name of 'cultural understanding', and is it doing a disservice to those we are supposedly most concerned about in the first place.

It's not Blackcat stuff mate.

No, and no.

Outcomes in terms of health, education, employment, income, representation etc., have all improved significantly in the past few decades, following better 'cultural understanding':

-at a Govt level: more inclusive policy (White Australia Policy, 1967 Referendum and so on),
-at an institutional and business level: better guidelines (including enhanced Cultural Competency),
-at a societal level: better societal acceptance of Indigenous Australians.

Cultural understanding has significantly improved Australia, for both the majority and the minority, and will continue to do so.

No, not too much is allowed, and no it is not doing anyone a disservice.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Outcomes in terms of health, education, employment, income, representation etc., have all improved significantly in the past few decades, following better 'cultural understanding':

You miss the big picture. The outcomes that you mention are based on Western liberal democratic values. None of these outcomes have been improved by 'cultural understanding'. Each of the improvements in outcomes are due to the acceptance of modern values and technology - over primitive beliefs and customs.

 

[samFFC]

You miss the big picture. The outcomes that you mention are based on Western liberal democratic values. None of these outcomes have been improved by 'cultural understanding'. Each of the improvements in outcomes are due to the acceptance of modern values and technology - over primitive beliefs and customs.

Outcomes have improved much more in the latter part of the 20th and early 21st century, since the increased awareness and adoption of cultural competency in health, education etc.. They did not improve (and many got much worse) under previous beliefs of cultural homogeneity, and of focussing solely on the beliefs of the dominant culture. Cultural understanding has most definitely improved these outcomes.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Outcomes have improved much more in the latter part of the 20th and early 21st century, since the increased awareness and adoption of cultural competency in health, education etc.. They did not improve (and many got much worse) under previous beliefs of cultural homogeneity, and of focussing solely on the beliefs of the dominant culture. Cultural understanding has most definitely improved these outcomes.

You talk bollocks. Cultural competency, cultural homogeneity, cultural understanding etc.

Heath outcomes have been improved by vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water, better diet, living within range of a modern hospital.

Education outcomes have been improved by children having a school to go to and their parents being made to get their kids to go.

If outcomes have improved it is because efforts have been made to bring standards towards a common level accepted by Western society.

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Outcomes have improved much more in the latter part of the 20th and early 21st century, since the increased awareness and adoption of cultural competency in health, education etc.. They did not improve (and many got much worse) under previous beliefs of cultural homogeneity, and of focussing solely on the beliefs of the dominant culture. Cultural understanding has most definitely improved these outcomes.

Ok let me put forward a scenario.

Joe Bloggs is non indigenous - as far as he knows.

Unemployment, alcoholism, and abuse - both sexual and physical has been present on both sides of his family tracking back three generations to the present day.

But Joe can can play footy.

So well in fact, it's a potential cycle breaker.

Sadly he has drongo family members trying to drag him down, dodgy mates he grew up with putting in there two bobs worth, and he has a totally confrontational approach to dealing with 'authority' largely as a result of negative experiences within the ill equipped and poorly resourced education system.

Bottom line poor Bloggsy needs someone to give him a chance.

Show some 'patience'.

Who does society circa 2014 say we should cut more slack, that kid or Josh Simpson?

 

[clogged]

Would a non-indigenous person who may well come from a complex and problematic background receive the same amount of 'sensitivity and understanding' as Simpson is predictably going to receive?

I doubt it.

How much leeway was Ben Cousins given by your club?

 

[Illinois Nazi]

How much leeway was Ben Cousins given by your club?

Cousins' issues never affected his primary responsibility of on-field performance. Had Ben gone on a bender, run from a booze bus, swum across a river and then failed to turn up for the match the next day I reckon the leeway he would have gotten would have been pretty small.

 

[crackerjack4X4]

How much leeway was Ben Cousins given by your club?

Bingo!!!

Ok let me put forward a scenario.

Joe Bloggs is non indigenous - as far as he knows.
BLAH BLAH BLAH
Show some 'patience'.

Who does society circa 2014 say we should cut more slack, that kid or Josh Simpson?

You are a troll and knob jockey.

 

[samFFC]

Cousins' issues never affected his primary responsibility of on-field performance. Had Ben gone on a bender, run from a booze bus, swum across a river and then failed to turn up for the match the next day I reckon the leeway he would have gotten would have been pretty small.

Don't recall Simpson missing a match he was selected for.

 

[samFFC]

You talk bollocks. Cultural competency, cultural homogeneity, cultural understanding etc.

Heath outcomes have been improved by vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water, better diet, living within range of a modern hospital.

Education outcomes have been improved by children having a school to go to and their parents being made to get their kids to go.

If outcomes have improved it is because efforts have been made to bring standards towards a common level accepted by Western society.

If you don't want to read the reports I posted, that is cool, but don't tell me I am talking bollocks and then proceed to outline ideological "arguments" to support your original point.

If you think vaccines, antibiotics and clean water have helped in the past 20-30 years, you should re-check your history. These were well before the past 30 years.

 

[samFFC]

Ok let me put forward a scenario.

Joe Bloggs is non indigenous - as far as he knows.

Unemployment, alcoholism, and abuse - both sexual and physical has been present on both sides of his family tracking back three generations to the present day.

But Joe can can play footy.

So well in fact, it's a potential cycle breaker.

Sadly he has drongo family members trying to drag him down, dodgy mates he grew up with putting in there two bobs worth, and he has a totally confrontational approach to dealing with 'authority' largely as a result of negative experiences within the ill equipped and poorly resourced education system.

Bottom line poor Bloggsy needs someone to give him a chance.

Show some 'patience'.

Who does society circa 2014 say we should cut more slack, that kid or Josh Simpson?

Both?

As mentioned, if Ben Cousins (Chad Fletcher? Daniel Kerr?) was given as much leeway as he was, then don't come on here with your racial profiling garbage.

You have it in for Simpson and/or Indigenous players more generally.

There is no reason to choose between Mr Bloggs and Simpson. So argument is void.

 

[benchwarmer5]

"And is this sort of treatment ultimately serving the best interests of the particular group which it is being used upon?"

RisingPoostix has obviously got the best interest of minority's at heart....

Poostix your post is racist, your racist..... so just let rip and don't bother covering it up.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Don't recall Simpson missing a match he was selected for.

That's splitting hairs. He was expected to be in Sydeny for the match.

I'm not agreeing with the OP by the way, I'm just saying don't deny that what Simpson did is something that may well cost him his career.

 

[MrCharisma]

Yeah but Cousins had "personal issues and professional issues" like being a drug ****ed drongo gangbanger. This Simpson character is getting away with not catching a flight because he's a 20 year old kid who had a sook after getting dropped from the team, and as the article mentions, he has gone home before for unique cultural reasons like "family illnesses" ... lol crazy aboriginal culture!