Strategy Gut the Defence

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TheGreatGrundy said:
If the opposition are seeking a weak line, your HB players of ' Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry' offer susceptibility in abundance. :)
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I agree it’s weak, but look at it in the context of being the line that’s easiest to transition players in to your best 22 given the effectiveness of team defences.

Then consider tonight there will be times where our once vaunted midfield (in 2019 it was compared to WC and Brisbane’s of the early 00’s) will look like this:

C: Mayne-Greenwood-Madgen

Something needs to change.
 
Rusty Beam said:
Yep.

I was always of the opinion that Moore was better in defence than as a forward, but that’s not the point.

I think he is our best backman AND our best forward. Ultimately he is our best player and given our lack of decent forward options we need him more forward than back.

We are also potentially well set up to cover him down back if we can start to pump some games into Keane and Kelly (who I think undoubtedly is a key back) whilst Roughie and Howe are still in the team.

If we wait until they really decline or retire it will be too late.
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I wouldn’t have dropped Cox to make room for Moore though. Maybe make Cameron wait another week or so rather than running two parallel experiments

And that’s assuming Moore is playing forward at all...,
 
Last edited:
Scodog10 said:
I agree it’s weak, but look at it in the context of being the line that’s easiest to transition players in to your best 22 given the effectiveness of team defences.

Then consider tonight there will be times where our once vaunted midfield (in 2019 it was compared to WC and Brisbane’s of the early 00’s) will look like this:

C: Mayne-Greenwood-Madgen

Something needs to change.
Click to expand...
'
Mayne-Greenwood-Madgen' has a smell of death and decay. At least the HB line smells fresh, though the quality and character of its ripening buds is yet to be determined.
 

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Timmy from Thomastown said:
I wouldn’t have dropped Cox to make room for Moore though. Maybe make Cameron wait another week or so rather than running two parallel experiments
Click to expand...

AFL
MOORE THE “POSTER BOY” FOR TROUBLING COLLINGWOOD ISSUE
BY SEN 2 DAYS AGO
02CaCo21DB2650_best.JPG

Collingwood defender Darcy Moore is lacking “intensity” and “commitment” at the present time, according to Brownlow Medallist Gerard Healy.
Healy thinks Moore’s standards have dropped since making last year’s All-Australian team, particularly the defensive side of his game.


Fox Footy reported that Moore is struggling with an Achilles injury after experiencing soreness during the off-season.
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“I know the reason why Darcy Moore is one of the better defenders - who’s not going as well as people have said - and I think you had those numbers on Footy Classified,” Healy told Sportsday.
“But that said, when I was talking about people lacking that intensity and commitment On The Couch, he was the one I was thinking of because I can just see it in his eyes and his demeanour – he looks to be not as engaged as I’ve seen him in other (years).
“Darcy’s my poster boy for that particular aspect of Collingwood.”












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Healy says pushing Moore forward in a bid to solve Collingwood’s attacking woes “makes no sense”, especially against Friday night’s opponent West Coast.
“Putting him forward is robbing your club of one of its great strengths,” he said.
“I think they change by changing the way they move the ball.
“We saw it two weeks ago against Carlton, they moved the ball quickly out of the midfield and moved the ball quickly off the half-back line.
"The guys they’ve got down there – they’re not donkeys – they’re ok, but even the best forward lines are hopeless if you bring the ball in slowly.”
Collingwood sit 1-3 ahead of their clash against the Eagles in Perth.
 
We are under so much pressure ATM, with so much media and fan heat on our club, that I’m concerned we’ll make changes in desperation that get us into a bigger hole. These suggestions seem reasonable, but we’re only at round 5. Is it too early? And does it mean everything that was practised in the pre-season is thrown out the window?

Troubling times. And some teams are getting absolutely belted in games - I fear our turn is coming.
 
Sea fog said:
AFL
MOORE THE “POSTER BOY” FOR TROUBLING COLLINGWOOD ISSUE
BY SEN 2 DAYS AGO
02CaCo21DB2650_best.JPG

Collingwood defender Darcy Moore is lacking “intensity” and “commitment” at the present time, according to Brownlow Medallist Gerard Healy.
Healy thinks Moore’s standards have dropped since making last year’s All-Australian team, particularly the defensive side of his game.


Fox Footy reported that Moore is struggling with an Achilles injury after experiencing soreness during the off-season.
Stay up to date with all the latest news from SEN. Sign up HERE.
“I know the reason why Darcy Moore is one of the better defenders - who’s not going as well as people have said - and I think you had those numbers on Footy Classified,” Healy told Sportsday.
“But that said, when I was talking about people lacking that intensity and commitment On The Couch, he was the one I was thinking of because I can just see it in his eyes and his demeanour – he looks to be not as engaged as I’ve seen him in other (years).
“Darcy’s my poster boy for that particular aspect of Collingwood.”












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Next Up
Hamish Hartlett revealed to Hayesy that he's taken Sam Powell-Pepper under his wing - (SEN SA BREAKFAST)
01:27





















Healy says pushing Moore forward in a bid to solve Collingwood’s attacking woes “makes no sense”, especially against Friday night’s opponent West Coast.
“Putting him forward is robbing your club of one of its great strengths,” he said.
“I think they change by changing the way they move the ball.
“We saw it two weeks ago against Carlton, they moved the ball quickly out of the midfield and moved the ball quickly off the half-back line.
"The guys they’ve got down there – they’re not donkeys – they’re ok, but even the best forward lines are hopeless if you bring the ball in slowly.”
Collingwood sit 1-3 ahead of their clash against the Eagles in Perth.
Click to expand...
WTF??

Healy has to be about the biggest clown going around. Talk about absolute crap. Obviously dementia is setting in.

Moore is one of our few players that always looks engaged.
 
Gut every line I say. It’s rebuild time.

Over the next 12-15 months insert (where possible) the following: McRae, Henry, McInnes, T Brown, Bianco, Rantall, Keane, Kelly, Wilson, McCreery, N Daicos, Murphy, Tohill, Chugg, Ginnivan

^ except Wilson they are all under 22 years of age. Some will sink, some will swim

But if you are to try and legitimately fit the majority (8+) of the above players in to the weekly senior team going forward... then that means every line needs to change over the next 12-15 months

That means phasing out some senior players and switching others around

And the kids that look like they might not make it after 3 +years on the list... (e.g Lynch, Murphy, Tohill) they need to given a final chance or cut at years end
 
whiskeytown said:
Gut every line I say. It’s rebuild time.

Over the next 12-15 months insert (where possible) the following: McRae, Henry, McInnes, T Brown, Bianco, Rantall, Keane, Kelly, Wilson, McCreery, N Daicos, Murphy, Tohill, Chugg, Ginnivan

^ except Wilson they are all under 22 years of age. Some will sink, some will swim

But if you are to try and legitimately fit the majority (8+) of the above players in to the weekly senior team going forward... then that means every line needs to change over the next 12-15 months

That means phasing out some senior players and switching others around

And the kids that look like they might not make it after 3 +years on the list... (e.g Lynch, Murphy, Tohill) they need to given a final chance or cut at years end
Click to expand...


All this will happen almost as the business as usual plan. Just depends on the timeframe
 
Vicky Park said:
We are under so much pressure ATM, with so much media and fan heat on our club, that I’m concerned we’ll make changes in desperation that get us into a bigger hole. These suggestions seem reasonable, but we’re only at round 5. Is it too early? And does it mean everything that was practised in the pre-season is thrown out the window?

Troubling times. And some teams are getting absolutely belted in games - I fear our turn is coming.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way...
Bucks is very conservative and is not one for change in his approach, his game plan, match day moves and the players he plays regardless of form. Our ball movement from mid 2018-2019 was the outlier of his tenure. It feels any changes he makes now was not planned but from a position of desperation. But having said that there is no alternative for him because what has been dished up is not working. He needs to own the changes

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Kirby said:
WTF??

Healy has to be about the biggest clown going around. Talk about absolute crap. Obviously dementia is setting in.

Moore is one of our few players that always looks engaged.
Click to expand...

It was a bizarre series of quotes! Sort of like the author went hunting for every Healy quote on Moore since 2019. He’s been our most consistent player to this point of the season and would be leading our B&F by a mile.
 
Timmy from Thomastown said:
All this will happen almost as the business as usual plan. Just depends on the timeframe
Click to expand...

I’m know that if we win 3 of the next 4 games (WC, Ess, GC, North)... many on here and perhaps at the club will be seduced into thinking that all the rebuild stuff should be put on the back burner... which it can’t be

Some of the optimists of weeks ago are now pessimistic... but with a few wins in a row, they’ll start dreaming of September

I’ve been saying for months now that (at seasons commencement) with 23 players with 23 games or less, no improvement to the forward line, and 9 players over 30 on the list... that development should be the absolute priority of this season
 

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Scodog10 said:
I agree it’s weak, but look at it in the context of being the line that’s easiest to transition players in to your best 22 given the effectiveness of team defences.

Then consider tonight there will be times where our once vaunted midfield (in 2019 it was compared to WC and Brisbane’s of the early 00’s) will look like this:

C: Mayne-Greenwood-Madgen

Something needs to change.
Click to expand...
Ouch.... that is depressing
 
No to Moore forward
But agree with the rest, Crisp has to play full time on ball, we only have two midfielders tonight (Sidebottom, Pendles)
 
Scodog10 said:
It was a bizarre series of quotes! Sort of like the author went hunting for every Healy quote on Moore since 2019. He’s been our most consistent player to this point of the season and would be leading our B&F by a mile.
Click to expand...
Healy was on one of the late Foxtel football shows earlier this week. He noted that although it has been reported Moore has been our best player, Healy suggested there had been a lack of physicality to Moore's play this year. He has conceded the most goals of any key defender. Mick McGuane in his article today also noted that Moore has conceded 34 marks and 42 uncontested possessions to his match-up – both being the most of any key defender.
 
Roverjg said:
Healy was on one of the late Foxtel football shows earlier this week. He noted that although it has been reported Moore has been our best player, Healy suggested there had been a lack of physicality to Moore's play this year. He has conceded the most goals of any key defender. Mick McGuane in his article today also noted that Moore has conceded 34 marks and 42 uncontested possessions to his match-up – both being the most of any key defender.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity did either provide context to these numbers such as contest win %? Or player targets? Or what they were v 2020? It’s pretty obvious that Moore will always concede those types of numbers because he takes very aggressive positioning.
 
Scodog10 said:
Out of curiosity did either provide context to these numbers such as contest win %? Or player targets? Or what they were v 2020? It’s pretty obvious that Moore will always concede those types of numbers because he takes very aggressive positioning.
Click to expand...
But it is also selective because Moore is the #2 ranked defender for one one ones, the #2 ranked in the comp for contested marks, and the #1 in the comp for intercepts. I heard that convo and Leigh Matthews said if the AA team was selected now that he would be a key defender. I reckon he has a lot of uncontested possies against him because he allows his opponent to take possession up the ground. I also wonder if soreness is affecting him a bit.
 
Scodog10 said:
Out of curiosity did either provide context to these numbers such as contest win %? Or player targets? Or what they were v 2020? It’s pretty obvious that Moore will always concede those types of numbers because he takes very aggressive positioning.
Click to expand...
There was no context. I was of the view that they were trying to pour fuel on the powder keg that is Collingwood at present. For example on Monday night Tom Morris on Fox came out and said there were rumblings within the player group and he named Moore as one of the players disenfranchised. Then Healy Wednesday night provided the stats and suggested Moore was lacking physicality and playing off his man. He was also inferring maybe Moore was no longer buying into Bucks mantra.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Scodog10 said:
On this one I absolutely agree. In 2021 guys that take ground with penetration are worth their weight in gold. On that basis there’s one other point I’d make about your 22 and it’s that JDG plays midfield.

He wouldn’t be wasted in that forward mix he’d just provide more value through the middle, IMO. We’ve got to figure out how best to use him because 10-15 possessions and a goal a game falls short for me! No doubt he kicks 35-40 this year, but I don’t think that solves anything.
Click to expand...
I regret doing that best 22 but I agree, De Goey needs to play as a middle.
 
Roverjg said:
There was no context. I was of the view that they were trying to pour fuel on the powder keg that is Collingwood at present. For example on Monday night Tom Morris on Fox came out and said there were rumblings within the player group and he named Moore as one of the players disenfranchised. Then Healy Wednesday night provided the stats and suggested Moore was lacking physicality and playing off his man. He was also inferring maybe Moore was no longer buying into Bucks mantra.

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Morris said the 2 who were rumbling were Grundy and Roughie.
 
If now isn’t the time then will there ever be time?

Was anyone else annoyed that our developing players we left to essentially rot in the forward line whilst experienced players in the midfield and defence butchered the ball?

What the point in developing them in positions where they can’t find the ball?

And what purpose are Maynard and Crisp serving to the backline other than being panic merchants? At least there physicality in the midfield can be used to win the ball and break away from the stoppage.

If Macrae doesn’t have the tank for the middle surely his skills are better served at half back where he can use them more?

At what point are we gonna start making meaningful changes to side?
 
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott

I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
Click to expand...

Not convinced. If we'd had Howe, Adams, Elliott and JDG yesterday I doubt we'd have lost so on that basis gutting the best functioning line group doesn't actually achieve much. JDG back this week, hopefully Howe not too much longer either.

Bianco copped his injury at a bad time. He seemed to be at the head of the kids queue for inclusion in the seniors before that. Hopefully he's back at VFL level and pushing that case again fairly quickly.

I like the idea of McInnes into the defence. Think he needs to play in the guts at VFL level as that's where his future lies when he builds the tank, but he's shown he's more than adept in defence at juniors.

I think we need to persevere with Henry forward. I'd be looking at Chugg as the next inclusion in defence.

I'd be leaving Moore in defence. I'm very confident he could be a very good KPF, we just need him more in defence.

A HB line with a combined 3 senior games of experience would get slaughtered unless we can drastically improve our team defence, and balance the midfield output.

Forward line remains the biggest concern. I'm not a fan of Cox and Cameron in the same side unless Grundy misses for some reason so it's 1 or the other. Up till the weekend I'd have had Cox but Cameron's game makes a more interesting discussion. Still not sure about Kelly either. Each time I see him (only twice to date) I'm more and more impressed with McMahon. Time will tell.

I'm glad to see you've included a genuine 2nd ruck option.
 
jackcass said:
Not convinced. If we'd had Howe, Adams, Elliott and JDG yesterday I doubt we'd have lost so on that basis gutting the best functioning line group doesn't actually achieve much. JDG back this week, hopefully Howe not too much longer either.
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I’m sure we would have won as well, beating Essendon isn’t much of an achievement though and still would have lost the rest of our games though.

Allot of the changes I listed in the op I’d tweak but change is definitely needed.
 
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