Head High Contact - Worth it for a Free Kick?

[geelong_crazy26]

It really is

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AFL looked at selwood actions for many years including KB on the rules committee and they said they never had an issue with it. Declared he was always doing it in the act of play challenging the tackler trying to shrug it off. Probably evidenced by the fact that a large portion of the head high contact he received over his career he actually plays on as opposed to stopping and looking at the umpires.

Think the AFL has drawn a line between a player going in hard for the ball and attempting to shrug tackles and a player who grabs the ball with no intention but to purely draw a free kick and nothing else.

Players have been shrugging for years not just selwood, some of the hawks players including Dylan Moore puopolo have been shockers over the years too.

Ginnivan grabs the ball and purely does nothing but looks to initiate a free kick. He doesn’t run around getting 25-30 touches a game as a contested midfielder, he simply grabs the ball a few times a game and thinks “ get a free kick”. The bloke ends up looking like a fetus the way he tucks his body in.

He has taken the shoulder and knee shrug from a 5/10 to a 10/10 and it was always going to lead to a rule change.

He honestly seems to have no other worthy skills at AFL level and will probably end of back in the reserves with the new rules based on sundays game.

 

[Goosecat]

Not disagreeing but I can't tell anything from those photos. Are you able to make them larger? It's also possible the umpires can just miss some free kicks. Agree it's difficult to adjudicate but its necessary.

Of course umpires miss stuff, it's a ridiculously difficult game to umpire and it just got made more difficult again.
If you want a closer look, it's probably easier to watch it happen on the game replay. Time is on the clock, second quarter Eagles V Saints.
This is the marvellous tackle technique starting point.


Completely unaware ball winner and this is high.



Going to be happening more and more now.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

God the tantrums from collingwood are ridiculous. Do they actually think his drip of the knees and then charging into mason redman

27

Mason Redman

Age

26

Ht

187cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.2

4star

K

10.1

4star

HB

5.1

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.7

4star

MG

262.0

4star

D

12.0

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.2

3star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

210.3

3star

D

12.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

MG

144.2

3star

was a legitimate free kick? Surely brad Scott will look at that and say great call and tell collingwood to train him to stop playing for free kicks or get stuffed.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The boys club media is to blame for kissing Selwood’s arse for a decade and a half and turning a wilful blind eye to his baby-oiled manipulations of the high tackle rule.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

God the tantrums from collingwood are ridiculous. Do they actually think his drip of the knees and then charging into mason redman was a legitimate free kick? Surely brad Scott will look at that and say great call and tell collingwood to train him to stop playing for free kicks or get stuffed.

Its real helen lovejoy vibes atm. Such a hysterical overreaction by both Collingwood and the media.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's fascinating that one player can make a career out of it and another player can't play more than 20 games before getting targetted about it.

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Those photos are probably good examples that it is mostly the shoulder shrug, he is not drastically dropping the knees or charging head high into anyone. Entirely different to ginnivan when you look at the two. Ginnivan literally grabs the ball drops the knees by half and charges into an opponent. Quite different actually. The AFL obviously sees a difference as well and agrees with me.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Its real helen lovejoy vibes atm. Such a hysterical overreaction by both Collingwood and the media.

Surely I am not the only one with common sense who sees that is a good call? He obviously dropped the knees and charged into redman

 

[cob]

God the tantrums from collingwood are ridiculous. Do they actually think his drip of the knees and then charging into mason redman was a legitimate free kick? Surely brad Scott will look at that and say great call and tell collingwood to train him to stop playing for free kicks or get stuffed.

No need to call it a tantrum - I'm just challenging your points like any discussion board allows. So far the only distinction you've told me is that if we compare Selwood and Ginnivan, the difference has now become the means in which they draw the arm around the neck, even though I know you objectively agree that they're both playing for the high contact but you take too much pride in your captain too allow yourself to agree with me.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

No need to call it a tantrum - I'm just challenging your points like any discussion board allows. So far the only distinction you've told me is that if we compare Selwood and Ginnivan, the difference has now become the means in which they draw the arm around the neck, even though I know you objectively agree that they're both playing for the high contact but you take too much pride in your captain too allow yourself to agree with me.

I don’t think a person who was named the games best captain, AA captain, most courageous player and multiple AA guernseys just goes out there and every time he picks up the ball in a contest he is “looking for a free kick”. I would argue he does not charge into the opposition and drop the knees anywhere near as drastically as ginnivan does, and he has probably the best contested game in the AFL probably alongside Voss of the past 25 years. I think his shoulder shrug technique just naturally came about due to his contested game trying to “shrug opponents off”. If they catch him high it’s a bonus. Having watched selwood play every singe one of his games. A very good portion of those high tackles he actually shrugs the opposition off and looks to continue play with a hand pass or running off himself and is often haulted by the umpire to come back and take the free kick. People who are playing for free kicks don’t do this, they generally exaggerate and look at the umpires.

Also throw in the hundreds and hundreds of bull like contested balls he has just thrown himself in and gotten head knocks the whole works without a free kick or even a blink.

I don’t think anyone can say any of the above for jack ginnivan. He is not a ferocious contested bull running around through packs trying to shrug off tackles, he is a small forward who grabs the ball and does everything he can to drop at the knees, flex his mid section and run into opposition to draw frees. I think the action itself is a lot more intentional in the scheme of the plays and also more exaggerated. I actually never saw selwood ram into opposition once he get the ball initating the high contact either.

Bit long but I think it’s interesting and a lot of factors that just make the ginnivan one a lot more purposeful and intentional for playing a free kick and nothing more. It also becomes an ugly look when that is your only skill set you bring week in week out, that the stigma and reputation will be quite bad

 

[FrogDude]

Of course umpires miss stuff, it's a ridiculously difficult game to umpire and it just got made more difficult again.
If you want a closer look, it's probably easier to watch it happen on the game replay. Time is on the clock, second quarter Eagles V Saints.
This is the marvellous tackle technique starting point.

View attachment 1456204
Completely unaware ball winner and this is high.
View attachment 1456225

View attachment 1456226
Going to be happening more and more now.

This is a free, no doubt. But if watch the replay, Hill had actually tackled him shoulder height and his momentum was what pushed the tackle high.
I feel this is just a mistake from the umpire who probably missed the high contact outright, not really because he thought O'Neill ducked.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don’t think a person who was named the games best captain, AA captain, most courageous player and multiple AA guernseys just goes out there and every time he picks up the ball in a contest he is “looking for a free kick”. I would argue he does not charge into the opposition and drop the knees anywhere near as drastically as ginnivan does, and he has probably the best contested game in the AFL probably alongside Voss of the past 25 years. I think his shoulder shrug technique just naturally came about due to his contested game trying to “shrug opponents off”. If they catch him high it’s a bonus. Having watched selwood play every singe one of his games. A very good portion of those high tackles he actually shrugs the opposition off and looks to continue play with a hand pass or running off himself and is often haulted by the umpire to come back and take the free kick. People who are playing for free kicks don’t do this, they generally exaggerate and look at the umpires.

Also throw in the hundreds and hundreds of bull like contested balls he has just thrown himself in and gotten head knocks the whole works without a free kick or even a blink.

I don’t think anyone can say any of the above for jack ginnivan. He is not a ferocious contested bull running around through packs trying to shrug off tackles, he is a small forward who grabs the ball and does everything he can to drop at the knees, flex his mid section and run into opposition to draw frees. I think the action itself is a lot more intentional in the scheme of the plays and also more exaggerated. I actually never saw selwood ram into opposition once he get the ball initating the high contact either.

Bit long but I think it’s interesting and a lot of factors that just make the ginnivan one a lot more purposeful and intentional for playing a free kick and nothing more. It also becomes an ugly look when that is your only skill set you bring week in week out, that the stigma and reputation will be quite bad

Dude literally douses himself in oil.

You aren't going to like hearing it, and (thanks to hagiography from the footy media) you may not believe it, but it genuinely has put a subconscious asterisk in the minds of many neutral footy fans regarding Selwood's status as one of those generally universally recognised decorated champions of the game.

Obviously most Cats fans couldn't give a rats toss about that, but just know that for a large number of 'neutral' appreciators of the game, there is a subconscious reflex twinge felt when media backslappers mention Selwood alongside the absolute greats of the game. No big deal. It happened to Carey too. Great players, but certain actions have consequences to legacies.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Dude literally douses himself in oil.

You aren't going to like hearing it, and (thanks to hagiography from the footy media) you may not believe it, but it genuinely has put a subconscious asterisk in the minds of many neutral footy fans regarding Selwood's status as one of those generally universally recognised decorated champions of the game.

Obviously most Cats fans couldn't give a rats toss about that, but just know that for a large number of 'neutral' appreciators of the game, there is a subconscious reflex twinge felt when media backslappers mention Selwood alongside the absolute greats of the game. No big deal. It happened to Carey too. Great players, but certain actions have consequences to legacies.

i think you would have to be pretty dumb with your footy knowledge to think a player who has won 6 AA selections, 4x most courageous player award, AFLPA best captain award, sits currently fourth on the all time contested possession list since the stat was recorded, somehow received any of these or would have had these not awarded because a few free kicks here or there a game were given or not given. In the scheme of his career it means virtually jack s**t unless your someone who is emotional and upset over geelongs success.

Jack ginnivan seems to have nothing besides playing for frees that makes him a capable AFL player to this date, and it will probably mean he ends up in the reserves soon.

 

[deck]

Listening to Dermie try a justify why a free kick was paid because a players knee bent meant he was playing for the high contact. These idiots do realise when people run they bend there knees.

 

[Oxirane]

Have no idea how media links work anymore.

 

[Paul Kersey]

Dude literally douses himself in oil.

You aren't going to like hearing it, and (thanks to hagiography from the footy media) you may not believe it, but it genuinely has put a subconscious asterisk in the minds of many neutral footy fans regarding Selwood's status as one of those generally universally recognised decorated champions of the game.

Obviously most Cats fans couldn't give a rats toss about that, but just know that for a large number of 'neutral' appreciators of the game, there is a subconscious reflex twinge felt when media backslappers mention Selwood alongside the absolute greats of the game. No big deal. It happened to Carey too. Great players, but certain actions have consequences to legacies.

He’s played for frees his whole career. Should have been shut down when he (and his brothers) started doing it.

 

[SuperSub17]

God the tantrums from collingwood are ridiculous. Do they actually think his drip of the knees and then charging into mason redman was a legitimate free kick? Surely brad Scott will look at that and say great call and tell collingwood to train him to stop playing for free kicks or get stuffed.

Whoops, try again.

How anyone can condone choke holds on a player is beyond me, but here we are.

 

[stefcep]

Only a matter of time that someone ends up with a serious neck injury.

 

[matthew_s]

Only a matter of time that someone ends up with a serious neck injury.

Wasn’t it only a matter of time that happened with the way ginnivan et al were going anyway?

I’m more surprised nobody had Andrew Gaff’d him.

 

[stefcep]

Wasn’t it only a matter of time that happened with the way ginnivan et al were going anyway?

I’m more surprised nobody had Andrew Gaff’d him.

The umps should have done a better job of calling it.

By making it public policy, you can bet that tacklers will push it to the nth degree and cross the line because no-one knows where the "line" really is anymore and that's where someone gets seriously hurt.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The umps should have done a better job of calling it.

By making it public policy, you can bet that tacklers will push it to the nth degree and cross the line because no-one knows where the "line" really is anymore and that's where someone gets seriously hurt.

nah, this is alarmist nonsense.

The ump stuffed up the Redman one and said as such.

Players aren’t going to go out and deliberately try and take players’ heads off. There is no incentive.

 

[Gaspard]

I'll repeat what I have said elsewhere. I don't like Ginnivan and I don't like his playing for free kicks. This blight on the game was developed by Selwood and enthusiastically adopted and adapted by many others. The AFL has ignored it for many years and now because a young smart arse has rubbed people's noses in his version of it they have reacted. Their solution is to umpire Ginnivan out of the game and call the problem solved.

Concussion and head injuries in general are made more likely by the AFL rule change to allow some high tackles (most really). This is not a solution. There will be consequences in court when damaged players enforce their legal rights to protection under the game's rules. I hope that there is a clear paper trail to those responsible for this, so that those who made the decision are the ones who have to pay. The unapologetic non explanation of the attempted choke of Ginnivan on Sunday shows that the rule is targeted at one player only. The expectation is that when they have gotten rid of him, the problem will go away. It won't.

The game is in for some very hard times quite soon unless a proper method of dealing with high tackles is found. It may entail going back to paying them all and then suspending players judged to have cheated. It may be something else. Persecuting Jack Ginnivan, toad though he may be, out of the game is not the way to clean this up. A proper fix of the rules is.

 

[stefcep]

nah, this is alarmist nonsense.

The ump stuffed up the Redman one and said as such.

Players aren’t going to go out and deliberately try and take players’ heads off. There is no incentive.

Sorry but how long after the rule change did the Redman one take to happen?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Sorry but how long after the rule change did the Redman one take to happen?

Correlation does not imply causation.

Clumsy head high tackles existed before the weekend.

 

[Goosecat]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Clumsy head high tackles existed before the weekend.

Lol, missed it entirely. It's not the tackle tacking place mate, it's the fact that such obvious neck ringing was thought to be ok'd.

 

[Goosecat]

This is a free, no doubt. But if watch the replay, Hill had actually tackled him shoulder height and his momentum was what pushed the tackle high.
I feel this is just a mistake from the umpire who probably missed the high contact outright, not really because he thought O'Neill ducked.

The ump didn't miss it. He saw the body go down and arms flail from the unprotected hit and instantly thought either the arms or height change somehow made the high contact allowed under the new regime. It's going to become more and more regular. The tacklers have been given another out for high contact, to the ball winners disadvantage. It will play out that way accordingly no matter the intent. It hasn't made it easier for the ball-getters and play- makers, it's made it easier for tacklers.
All else aside, you make it easier to tackle, you get more congestion and stop/start from all the flow-ons and you tilt the game in the tacklers favour, it's that basic.