Hugo Chavez dies aged 58

[Todman]

Capatilasm ... the greatest con ever perpetrated on humanity.

I think religion is.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

There's a difference between realising socialism is a complete failure, and pointing out it's failures,

Is it?

I think you will find nearly all of the countries in the top 10 of the UN inequality adjusted HDI, have strong safety nets, employee/worker rights and a welfare systems, largely based on principles that one might consider socialist.

Balance and a non ideological approach, so realising there is no one size fits all proposition is the key. Railing about the ills of socialism just sounds dumb.

As for making me look silly, dude you live in an alternate universe, if you think a) arguments on here are important and b) you in any way achieved that aim. You handle topics with all the shallowness and intellectual rigour of a pimply teenager. Impossible to take your opinions seriously, when half your posts amount to "look I am pwning you", or "huh I just pwnt you".

 

[OldBlueFan]

I think religion is.

Let's call it a tie.

 

[Todman]

Let's call it a tie.

no, not even close.

 

[OldBlueFan]

no, not even close.

Really? How many people on the planet live their lives according to religious dogma, as against those who live theirs according to capitalist dogma?

Prior to the rise of capitalism, there's no doubt that religion was the previous biggest con. But capitalism has overtaken it in the last hundred years.

 

[Power Raid]

And when it does, or might, they simply send in the troops to kill a couple of million people. That soon puts an end to any of this socialist nonsense. See Indonesia and the replacement of Sukarno with Suharto.

That seemingly intelligent people in the West can willfully remain ignorant of the methods by which the monied class maintains it's position at the expense of the vast, VAST majority of humanity on this planet, proves that the truth is what the victors say it is.

I just watched this documentary which requires some patience but worth it:

http://theactofkilling.com

That said if Subianto gets in this year we will see a return to violence as he brings in his socialist Indonesia for Indonesian policies.

Geez being Chinese or Balinese will be interesting.

That said, I don't think the west will let him win. Nor will wiranto. So I guess the west is not always in the wrong.

 

[placebo]

Is it?

I think you will find nearly all of the countries in the top 10 of the UN inequality adjusted HDI, have strong safety nets, employee/worker rights and a welfare systems, largely based on principles that one might consider socialist.

Balance and a non ideological approach, so realising there is no one size fits all proposition is the key. Railing about the ills of socialism just sounds dumb.

One might consider them whatever they want, the systems themselves aren't socialist, nor do they resemble an attempt at far-reaching socialist principles like, say, Venezuela. I'm not some, no holds-barred, laissez faire capitalist (maybe 6 years ago when I was a teen and silly), balance is lovely…but when it veers too far to a more socialist system, it often fails, time and again.

As for making me look silly, dude you live in an alternate universe, if you think a) arguments on here are important and b) you in any way achieved that aim. You handle topics with all the shallowness and intellectual rigour of a pimply teenager. Impossible to take your opinions seriously, when half your posts amount to "look I am pwning you", or "huh I just pwnt you".

Dude, I was stirring you up a little bit, because you take yourself too seriously. I couldn't give two shits about the arguments on here, I certainly take no pride in them, nor do I actually have any real beef with you, aside from taking yourself too seriously. You were ripe for a stirring.
As for my shallowness…eh, I usually abhor simplistic notions and discussions of politics/philosophy, however I've sunk down a level on this topic…but hey, when you're surrounded by a bunch of early-20's cultural-studies students in real-life who have just discovered cultural-Marxism and think that Chavez is a totally righteous dude who is a good leader, or you know, parrots oldbluefan, then sometimes it's okay just to call a guy who has put his country back a number of years…a socialist dweeb and a bit of a dick.

 

[Todman]

Really? How many people on the planet live their lives according to religious dogma, as against those who live theirs according to capitalist dogma?

Prior to the rise of capitalism, there's no doubt that religion was the previous biggest con. But capitalism has overtaken it in the last hundred years.

And capitalism has improved the lives of billions, the improved standards of living is why so many immigrants are coming here.

 

[OldBlueFan]

And capitalism has improved the lives of billions, the improved standards of living is why so many immigrants are coming here.

I love these sweeping, and at the same time self-contradictory,statements. If capitalism has improved the lives of all these billions, why are they trying to come here? Why wouldn't they be happy to stay right where they are? It didn't improve the lives of millions of Venezuelans, only a handful and that's why they turned to socialism, which truly did improve their lives.

Ask the Greeks how they think capitalism has improved their lives, or the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Irish, most Americans? Then ask the hundreds of millions who've died for the sake of capitalism how they feel about it.

 

[medusala]

Yes Spain was better under Franco, Greece under the Colonels, Portugal under Salazar and Ireland pre their tilt at half decent economics.

One wonders how getting dictated to by the EU (and having a common currency, CAP etc) is somehow consistent with free market economics.

One also further wonders how food shortages and rampant inflation are such a great thing.

 

[Todman]

Then ask the hundreds of millions who've died for the sake of capitalism how they feel about it.

Can't mate they're phuqing dead.

 

[OldBlueFan]

Yes Spain was better under Franco, Greece under the Colonels, Portugal under Salazar and Ireland pre their tilt at half decent economics.

These were examples of socialism were they?

One wonders how getting dictated to by the EU (and having a common currency, CAP etc) is somehow consistent with free market economics.

And who dreamt up the EU ... socialists?

One also further wonders how food shortages and rampant inflation are such a great thing.

Yep ... thanks to the business owners who are trying to subvert what's being built in Venezuela.

******* capitalists ... "If we can't have everything, then no-one will have anything!"

 

[Todman]

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Monday announced a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage and pensions in efforts to maintain consumer spending power amid spiraling inflation that reached 56.2 percent last year.
Maduro blames the soaring consumer prices on an opposition-led effort backed by Washington, though critics say it is the product of an aggressive expansion of the money supply and declining productivity of the economy.
"This is because we are at war," Maduro said during a televised broadcast announcing the measures. "There is an economic war against the country and we are defending ourselves."
Maduro said the increase would leave the minimum wage rising faster than inflation over 12 months.
The hike would put the monthly minimum wage at 3,270 bolivars. That is equivalent to $519 at the official rate, which economists say is vastly over-valued, but only $51 at the black market rate.
Maduro, a former union leader, says price increases have been artificially "induced" by unscrupulous business leaders seeking to exploit consumers and destabilize his government.
Critics note the country's monetary liquidity, a key measure of the money supply, expanded by 69 percent in 2013 compared with economic growth of less than 2 percent, resulting in more money chasing the same amount of goods and services.
They say the private sector has been weakened by state-centered economic policies of late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, including exchange controls and a wide-ranging price control mechanism, which Maduro has vowed to maintain.


Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.moneynews.com/Markets/Venezuela-inflation-currency-wages/2014/01/06/id/545489#ixzz2pgZqXuQR​

 

[Todman]

I'm not potting crime stats, just their use by bigoted white males to cling to power by generating fear amongst the populace. Are you going to attempt to even dispute this obvious political tactic?

No link? I see your reading skills haven't improved any meds ... try scrolling up the page.



This is how:

• Reduced inequality by 54%;
• Poverty has been reduced from 70.8% (1996) to 21% (2010);
• Extreme poverty reduced from 40% (1996) to a very low level of 7.3% (2010);

Who cares if the revenue of the state oil company has had a reduction of 10, 20, even 30% if 100% of the revenue goes back to the government so that they can invest in the welfare of the VAST MAJORITY of the population? Oh that's right, you only give a s**t about the pure economics of it ... people, health, education ... what do they matter?


What role did the right play in the decimation of the oil industry in Venezuela meds? You know, when they, along with their murderous allies in the US, decided to try to cripple the nation as a way of getting rid of Chavez?

If the central government has pegged the exchange rate at 10X the blackmarket rate then why should we believe government figures on the real rate of poverty. Of course added to the fact the official inflation rate 56.2%. high inflation makes cash worthless as it loses value very quickly.

That is equivalent to $519 at the official rate, which economists say is vastly over-valued, but only $51 at the black market rate.

​

Maduro, a former union leader, says price increases have been artificially "induced" by unscrupulous business leaders seeking to exploit consumers and destabilize his government.​

Critics note the country's monetary liquidity, a key measure of the money supply, expanded by 69 percent in 2013 compared with economic growth of less than 2 percent, resulting in more money chasing the same amount of goods and services.​

They say the private sector has been weakened by state-centered economic policies of late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, including exchange controls and a wide-ranging price control mechanism, which Maduro has vowed to maintain.​

​

Inflation is a great way to remove the wealth of the middle class without guns.

 

[medusala]

There is no crime in the Soviet Union.

 

[OldBlueFan]

If the central government has pegged the exchange rate at 10X the blackmarket rate then why should we believe government figures on the real rate of poverty. Of course added to the fact the official inflation rate 56.2%. high inflation makes cash worthless as it loses value very quickly.



Inflation is a great way to remove the wealth of the middle class without guns.

Maduro, a former union leader, says price increases have been artificially "induced" by unscrupulous business leaders seeking to exploit consumers and destabilize his government.
Critics note the country's monetary liquidity, a key measure of the money supply, expanded by 69 percent in 2013 compared with economic growth of less than 2 percent, resulting in more money chasing the same amount of goods and services.
They say the private sector has been weakened by state-centered economic policies of late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, including exchange controls and a wide-ranging price control mechanism, which Maduro has vowed to maintain.

And yet the US has pumped over $1 TRILLION into their economy while their economy has been stagnant over the last few years without triggering inflation ... go figure.

You've gotta love the "critics say" quotes.

 

[Todman]

And yet the US has pumped over $1 TRILLION into their economy while their economy has been stagnant over the last few years without triggering inflation ... go figure.

You've gotta love the "critics say" quotes.

$1T pumped into the US economy is nowhere near the 69% increase in Venezeula.

 

[medusala]

without triggering inflation? Seen s&p lately?

 

[blackcat]

Is it?

I think you will find nearly all of the countries in the top 10 of the UN inequality adjusted HDI, have strong safety nets, employee/worker rights and a welfare systems, largely based on principles that one might consider socialist.

no doubt.

and then there are the friedman talking points on freedom and capitalism, when the US is anything but, and Boeing and Northrop suck on the teet on the congressional complex. we cant discern what the gain might be if those were not mere soundbites to a gullible populace

 

[Chameleon75]

And capitalism has improved the lives of billions, the improved standards of living is why so many immigrants are coming here.

To be fair though the strength of western economies hasn't been capitalism but imperialism, the exploitation of resources and human capital is what underpins it. Firstly by colonisation and more recently by international institutions like the IMF and the world bank with the loaded gun of NATO pointed at their heads.

Where would our economies be now without the guaranteed supply of cheap oil and sweatshop labour?

 

[Todman]

Venezuela remains a basket case, but increasingly the people on the streets are not putting up with it. Some of its claims may be overstated, but there can be no doubt that things are ugly.

 

[Power Raid]

To be fair though the strength of western economies hasn't been capitalism but imperialism, the exploitation of resources and human capital is what underpins it. Firstly by colonisation and more recently by international institutions like the IMF and the world bank with the loaded gun of NATO pointed at their heads.

Where would our economies be now without the guaranteed supply of cheap oil and sweatshop labour?

now that is just too simplistic and cynical.

 

[Gus Poyet]

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/the-game-changed/

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If these were left-wing protesters rioting against a right-wing government there would be wild cheers from the right for every commie skull crushed by the riot police. Just a thought.

 

[Gus Poyet]

If these were left-wing protesters rioting against a right-wing government there would be wild cheers from the right for every commie skull crushed by the riot police. Just a thought.

Are the protestors any wing?

They seem to be just targetting middle class people who perhaps don't like left wing governments.

Perhaps they are simply Capitalists.