JFK: The Smoking Gun

[Bunk Moreland]

Anyone catch this last night on SBS? Must say of the theories I've seen, incl some very wacky ones, this probably seems the most sensible. Still requires a freak accident however.

Anybody know if the theory has been thoroughly debunked?

 

[Bobby P]

I saw it was on but missed it. What was the theory?

 

[moses]

killed accidently by a secret service officer in the car behind

 

[Elixuh]

Watched it. Even if it was the secret serviceman in the car behind it would have taken a big fluke. Seems the most plausible of the conspiracy theories though.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I saw it was on but missed it. What was the theory?

Basically the same as the official version re Oswald, but that the actual head shot was fired accidently by member of the Secret Service a couple of cars back, who was holding a cocked and loaded assault rifle.

Much of it is based on ballistics theory which seems to make sense - however these things always do on first viewing. I'm far from an expert on weapons etc.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Watched it. Even if it was the secret serviceman in the car behind it would have taken a big fluke. Seems the most plausible of the conspiracy theories though.

The bit that I think is most intriguing is the ballistics impact analysis. The bullet from Oswald's weapon passed straight through both Kennedy and Connolly, as would be expected from that type of bullet.

The head shot however exploded and mushroomed on impact, which indicates a different type of missile.

If anybody knows anything about firearms and ballistics id love to hear their take on it.

 

[Elixuh]

The bit that I think is most intriguing is the ballistics impact analysis. The bullet from Oswald's weapon passed straight through both Kennedy and Connolly, as would be expected from that type of bullet.

The head shot however exploded and mushroomed on impact, which indicates a different type of missile.

If anybody knows anything about firearms and ballistics id love to hear their take on it.

I think there is little doubt that two different types of ammunition were responsible. I think the main contention is (from their perspective) that Oswald wouldn't have used two different types of ammunition and that therefore there must have been a second shooter. So purely speculation.

EDIT: the brief witness accounts of smelling gun powder at ground level and the ballistic trajectory analysis strengthens their case but because very little of the evidence pointing to this was directlyheard and questioned during the inquiry I guess we'll never know.

 

[Messenger]

Very disappointing. Smoke came from the grassy knoll?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I think there is little doubt that two different types of ammunition were responsible. I think the main contention is (from their perspective) that Oswald wouldn't have used two different types of ammunition and that therefore there must have been a second shooter. So purely speculation.

EDIT: the brief witness accounts of smelling gun powder at ground level and the ballistic trajectory analysis strengthens their case but because very little of the evidence pointing to this was directlyheard and questioned during the inquiry I guess we'll never know.

I think a major part of Oswald being the lone shooter was the 3 spent shell casings found in his nest. I think these were all of the same type?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Very disappointing. Smoke came from the grassy knoll?

The most appealing thing about this theory is that it doesn't contain any of the grassy knoll bullshit.

 

[Messenger]

The most appealing thing about this theory is that it doesn't contain any of the grassy knoll bullshit.

They've got to you clearly.

 

[CAS79]

They've got to you clearly.

Reads the mod's handbook, what do you do when a super mod trolls your board....

Oh ok, Carry on.

 

[Messenger]

Reads the mod's handbook, what do you do when a super mod trolls your board....

Oh ok, Carry on.

Who's trolling?

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Makes sense. Law enforcement tend to use hollow point ammunition, where the bullet mushrooms and therefore stays in the body of the target, whereas military ammunition goes through and keeps on going.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Makes sense. Law enforcement tend to use hollow point ammunition, where the bullet mushrooms and therefore stays in the body of the target, whereas military ammunition goes through and keeps on going.

It seems to make a disturbing amount of sense - would really like to see the ballistics proven or debunked.

The other bit I found interesting was apparently the autopsy gave the skull entrance wound as 6mm - but Oswald used 6.5mm ammo? Surely not...

 

[EasternTiger]

It seems to make a disturbing amount of sense - would really like to see the ballistics proven or debunked.

The other bit I found interesting was apparently the autopsy gave the skull entrance wound as 6mm - but Oswald used 6.5mm ammo? Surely not...

This theory goes back to the early 90's with the Mortal Error book, based on ballistic expert Howard Donahue's work dating back to the 60's. I haven't read the book, but apparently the ballistic/trajectory analysis is spot on.

The only problem is there were 4 secret service agents hanging off the side of the car, a driver, the hapless George Hickey holding the rifle, and maybe one or two other agents in there. Not one of them reported hearing/seeing/feeling rifle fire coming from inside the car. No one else in Dealey plaza heard/saw/felt this 'accidental shot' either. One witness, SM Holland, did report he saw an agent stand up in the car and appear to lose his balance. This is the same guy who also saw puffs of smoke and heard rifle fire coming from the grassy knoll.

Just on the trajectory analysis, maybe they should draw a line from Kennedy's head, back through where poor ol' George was sitting, and then extend that line to the buildings behind the motorcade.

You really have to feel sorry for JFK. He would have to be the unluckiest bloke to get shot in history. His death was so perplexing the boffins had to come up with 3 theories to explain it.

The Magic Bullet theory
The Jet Propulsion theory
The Neuro-*******ity theory.

And to rub salt into the wounds, the only other bloke with a rifle in the area is so hungover he accidentally slips and does what the bloke actually aiming can't do. Head Shot!.

 

[sherb]

The most appealing thing about this theory is that it doesn't contain any of the grassy knoll bullshit.

Why is it bullshit? Because the Warren Commission Report told you so?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

This theory goes back to the early 90's with the Mortal Error book, based on ballistic expert Howard Donahue's work dating back to the 60's. I haven't read the book, but apparently the ballistic/trajectory analysis is spot on.

The only problem is there were 4 secret service agents hanging off the side of the car, a driver, the hapless George Hickey holding the rifle, and maybe one or two other agents in there. Not one of them reported hearing/seeing/feeling rifle fire coming from inside the car. No one else in Dealey plaza heard/saw/felt this 'accidental shot' either. One witness, SM Holland, did report he saw an agent stand up in the car and appear to lose his balance. This is the same guy who also saw puffs of smoke and heard rifle fire coming from the grassy knoll.

Just on the trajectory analysis, maybe they should draw a line from Kennedy's head, back through where poor ol' George was sitting, and then extend that line to the buildings behind the motorcade.

You really have to feel sorry for JFK. He would have to be the unluckiest bloke to get shot in history. His death was so perplexing the boffins had to come up with 3 theories to explain it.

The Magic Bullet theory
The Jet Propulsion theory
The Neuro-*******ity theory.

And to rub salt into the wounds, the only other bloke with a rifle in the area is so hungover he accidentally slips and does what the bloke actually aiming can't do. Head Shot!.

Donahues work appears the most thorough ballistic and trajectory work done on the case. It's the frangible round stff tha got me in.

I would love to know if and how Oswald's full metal jacket bullet exploded when it hit JFK's skull.

I think their conclusion became Hickey because that's what the available evidence pointed to - him being identified as holding a rifle in close proximity, and hollow point ammo was supposedly used almost exclusively by law enforcement at the time.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Why is it bullshit? Because the Warren Commission Report told you so?

My opinion is its bullshit because I haven't seen the evidence to convince me.

It's not my job to tell you why it's rubbish - if it's your theory, produce the evidence to support it.

 

[sherb]

My opinion is its bullshit because I haven't seen the evidence to convince me.

It's not my job to tell you why it's rubbish - if it's your theory, produce the evidence to support it.

You made the statement, I just asked you why.

Too hard? Fair enough.

 

[TheStinger]

I must say that I did not see the aforementioned program, but if they indeed did conclude that a secret service guy accidentally killed the president, why was the Oswald arrest put in to action so quickly? If it was an accident, surely you trot out the guy and say "it was him. Case closed." But no, this dog and pony show with Oswald ensued.

Surely this points to at least some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. And why was Oswald chosen in advance of an "accident" to be the patsy they caught so quickly afterwards? Rather than clear up anything, this seems to have opened up a brand spanking fresh new can of worms.

I think anyone who doubts there was at least some form of a conspiracy to murder JFK is living in a fantasy land where a lone nutjob can pull off the greatest feat in marksmanship history with a gun that was notoriously slow to reload and aim and fire in quick succession.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

You made the statement, I just asked you why.

Too hard? Fair enough.

I told you - I think it's bullshit because there's not the evidence to support it.

If you think there is, go for gold.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I must say that I did not see the aforementioned program, but if they indeed did conclude that a secret service guy accidentally killed the president, why was the Oswald arrest put in to action so quickly? If it was an accident, surely you trot out the guy and say "it was him. Case closed." But no, this dog and pony show with Oswald ensued.

Surely this points to at least some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. And why was Oswald chosen in advance of an "accident" to be the patsy they caught so quickly afterwards? Rather than clear up anything, this seems to have opened up a brand spanking fresh new can of worms.

I think anyone who doubts there was at least some form of a conspiracy to murder JFK is living in a fantasy land where a lone nutjob can pull off the greatest feat in marksmanship history with a gun that was notoriously slow to reload and aim and fire in quick succession.

The theory doesn't exclude Oswald - in fact it follows the official version almost exactly re Oswald.

The difference being that he only fired twice - the fatal head shot was accidently fired by Hickey.

 

[Wallaby]

IF it turns out that The Secret Service agent did kill Kennedy, I think it far more likely that points to a definite Secret Service Assassination - rather than an accident. Otherwise, those boys worked really fast in the car concocting a story of an accident that just happened to fit perfectly in with a Lone Shooter operating at the exact same time who they knew nothing about. That was lucky. They then had to plant the Grassy Knoll story, get Oswald killed in the right way, arrange for the autopsy/investigation to be fiddled etc - all in a very short amount of time, involving '00s of personnel. If the Secret Service did it - they would have done it properly.

However, this 'accident' theory has been gone over several times and is no more likely than any other. Kennedy's head did not 'explode'. The soft brain matter was expelled violently, and the skull was broken in a few places, but it basically stayed together (there were a couple of loose fragments).

Most conspiracy theories come from the same source - 'I can't believe the answer could be that simple. I've watched movies! There's always a criminal mastermind behind a hugely complicated plot. It can't be a lone nutter/drunk chauffeur (Lady Di)/sad loner (Port Arthur)/Ex GI with a grudge (Oklahoma Bombimg) etc'.

Sometimes, sh!t happens, and is very mundane.

 

[Glacier]

The Zapruder fun clearly shows Kennedy hit from behind, he slumps fwd and his wife crawls across to check him, then comes the headshot and his head snaps back and to the left, after which she goes apeshit
" his brains are all over me " is apparently what she screamed
Now, if Oswald shot from behind then the first shot could have been his, however the second shot was from the front right
How anyone could believe in one shooter staggers me