JFK: The Smoking Gun

[Moshie The Mook]

Wow didn't know that about Connally. Oswald didn't set out to kill Kennedy at all. Seems Connally was his intended target. He lets rip with rifle fire, and misses with the first shot. He takes aim again, accidentally clipping Kennedy and wounding Connally on the way through. Then a secret service agent accidentally discharges his rifle, and shoots JFK in the head.

How did the Warren Commission get it so wrong?

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Wow didn't know that about Connally. Oswald didn't set out to kill Kennedy at all. Seems Connally was his intended target. He lets rip with rifle fire, and misses with the first shot. He takes aim again, accidentally clipping Kennedy and wounding Connally on the way through. Then a secret service agent accidentally discharges his rifle, and shoots JFK in the head.

How did the Warren Commission get it so wrong?

The Warren Commission didn't have the benefit of BigFooty to figure things out for them.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

The Warren Commission didn't have the benefit of BigFooty to figure things out for them.

The internet does throw out some pearlers doesn't it. The best one I've heard is they were all actors and it was staged. JFK lived and was actually Jimmy Carter. Marilyn Monroe played the role of Jackie Kennedy before being replaced by someone from The Beverly Hillbillies.

My theory is Oswald's motives are linked to his circle of friends. He hangs out with Anti-Castro Cubans and White Russians. I'd say both groups would be very passionate and persuasive in their beliefs, and cool to hang out with at parties.

To impress his new friends, and avenge the Bay of Pigs something something, he decides to kill Kennedy. And because he also has communist leanings, he sees it as a gift to Castro.

His escape was hardly the work of master conspirators. He strolls out of the TSBD, jumps on a bus, then gets off and catches a cab.

If he did have co-conspirators, it would have extended to nothing more than lending him money for a rifle, or egging him on to do it, or the promise of help escaping. Larry King said he heard a recording of a pilot who claimed to have been paid $5000 to wait for Oswald at the airport, and then fly him to Mexico.

He certainly was living on the edge though. As I said in an earlier post; if not handled correctly, it could have been the catalyst for a potentially awkward situation.

WASHINGTON — Shortly before President Kennedy was assassinated, the Soviet Embassy in Washington received a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald--a letter the Soviets privately believed was forged to make it look as if Oswald was working for them, newly released documents show.

"This letter was clearly a provocation: It gives the impression we had close ties with Oswald and were using him for some purposes of our own," Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin, Moscow's man in Washington for 24 years, wrote in an internal memo stamped "Highest Priority."

Dobrynin thought the letter was a fake because it had a different tone than previous letters the Soviets had received from Oswald, who lived in the Communist nation from 1959 to 1962. Also, the letter received at the embassy on Nov. 18, 1963, had been typed, not handwritten like his earlier ones, Dobrynin noted.

Not only has he killed the Prez, he's also tried to kick off a superpower riot. Kids hey!

 

[Wallaby]

I think Red Dwarf had it best - the convinced JFK (via time travel) to shoot himself - 'It will drive the conspiracy theorists nuts!'.

 

[Magruder]

If you watch the Zapruder film closely you will see JFK's head first pushed forward then back. This would indicate 2 shots almost simultaneously. One from the Daltex building and one from the grassy knoll?

don't fall for the James Files bullshit...

nor was it Nicoletti or the Corsican, (Lucien Sarti)

 

[Magruder]

even if so, jfk was a stark highlight, of the shadowy powers behind the scenes

Don't confuse him with his myth. Bought every political office he ever held, and that includes the presidency.
The only mitigation is that everyone was doing it, and plenty were happy to sell their votes.

The US is home to electoral fraud, kind of like a continental sized Zimbabwe

 

[Partridge]

John Connally actually believed to his dying day that LHO shot at him and not Kennedy.

His reasoning was that Oswald was given a dishonourable discharge from the Marines and had approached Connally in his capacity as state governor of Texas to have the discharge quashed (because a DD from the services severely impacts on employment prospects)

Connally refused and there's your motive

This story was in Newsweek in the early 90s I believe

Only problem is Oswald wasn't given a dishonourable discharge; he was given a hardship discharge.

 

[Partridge]

I think Red Dwarf had it best - the convinced JFK (via time travel) to shoot himself - 'It will drive the conspiracy theorists nuts!'.

To be fair, they don't need much help.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Starting macro and zooming in. That's all circumstantial.

Remove everything else and look at the crime scene, that's what this theory is about.

Why would one bullet pass straight through Kennedy, and the other explode upon impact?

That's the question that needs to be answered.

Just read an interesting fictional account of the assassination, The Third Bullet, by Stephen Hunter. The author's a real gun nut, and he started from this premise, exploring whether an "exploding bullet" was possible

In the story, Swagger reconciles the conflicting gun evidence with a speculative theory about the third bullet — the bullet that killed Kennedy. Swagger figures out that a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet can be loaded into the cartridge of .264 Winchester Magnum round, which could then be loaded into the more powerful and accurate .264 Winchester Magnum rifle. (In an afterword, Hunter says he has actually pulled off this trick.)

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/review/stephen-hunters-third-bullet-rethinks-the-jfk-story/

'tis a hoot of a read

 

[sherbrook]

Wow didn't know that about Connally. Oswald didn't set out to kill Kennedy at all. Seems Connally was his intended target. He lets rip with rifle fire, and misses with the first shot. He takes aim again, accidentally clipping Kennedy and wounding Connally on the way through. Then a secret service agent accidentally discharges his rifle, and shoots JFK in the head.

How did the Warren Commission get it so wrong?

It would be fair to say the Connally's view was egocentric to say the least

 

[EagleShore]

Watched it. Even if it was the secret serviceman in the car behind it would have taken a big fluke. Seems the most plausible of the conspiracy theories though.

Rubbish. There was evidence of several bullets. The following is a long video but incredibly extensive in its JFK coverage.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The title gives it away as horseshit.

This is about the crime scene at Dealey Plaza, not a *in terrorist attack that happened 40 years later on the other side of the country.

 

[Tyrone Time]

The theory that a secret service agent accidentally shot the president is insane and shouldn't even be entertained. It is preposterous.

I'm not sure why people use the available evidence to draw conclusions one way or another. If you want to play theory games, go to google maps and type in 1026 N. Beckley Ave Oak Cliff Dallas. Then get directions to 223 S. Ewing Oak Cliff. Oswald lived in the first and Ruby lived in the second address.

See if you can work out which major JFK event happened between these two addresses. How far from this event is Ruby's apartment? Then go back and trace Oswald s path from his house to the texas theatre. Far more interesting than wasting an hour on a doco about an accidental secret service shot that nobody saw.

Thanks for posting that, did that very thing and came to most likely the same conclusion you did.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Thanks for posting that, did that very thing and came to most likely the same conclusion you did.

Yeah it's quite interesting isn't it.

Even more eye opening is the way the warren commission handled the dealey plaza witnesses.

This is the extent of the Lee Bowers grilling. Possibly the most important witness that day.

Mr. BOWERS - The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into.
Mr. BALL - The place where Elm dead ends?
Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch him.
Mr. BALL - What was the description of that car?
Mr. BOWERS - The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license.
Mr. BALL - Do you know what State?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I think, if I looked at a list.
Mr. BALL - And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?
Mr. BOWERS - Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.


*crickets*


Mr. BALL - When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?
Mr. BOWERS - I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Mr. BALL - You couldn't describe it?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---
Mr. BALL - Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL - In this area around your tower?
Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they .could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train.
Mr. BALL - I believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you about that you think of?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I can recall.

And yet, this is what Ruby's roommate endured.

Mr. SENATOR. It says, "Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him." He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, "Ruby and Senator arose," it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that----
Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps Sheba----
Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?
Mr. SENATOR Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don't have to make any entry on the page.
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the-other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?
Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. "He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot." This is not so.

It goes on....pages and pages and pages about Ruby's dog. They couldn't work out how he got into the basement where he shot Oswald, but apparently the dog held all the answers.

At one stage they were questioning him about his favorite food.

One of Oswald's mates - wasn't anywhere near Dealey Plaza - endured a 50 page long deposition. Jackie Kennedy was in and out in 10 minutes.

It seems if you were an actual witness to the crime, you were in and out relatively quickly. If you had the misfortune of being someones acquaintance, or Oswald's mums dentist, you were ****ed for the next 2 days.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The theory that a secret service agent accidentally shot the president is insane and shouldn't even be entertained. It is preposterous.

The JFK assassination was the greatest threat the world has ever faced. It could have been the catalyst for WW3. The previous year the world came to the brink of catastrophe with the Cuban Missile Crisis. The 3 players in that saga were Russia, Cuba and the USA.

Fast forward a year, and the president is assassinated by a guy who had defected to the Soviet Union and had links to anti-Castro groups in New Orleans. So again, the Soviet Union threatening US national security using Cuba to do it. Now, if it comes out this guy has been influenced or helped by either groups, then the US is in a Cuban Missile Crisis situation again, this time it would have to be the aggressor.

There is no other course of action it could have taken, or seen to be taking. In 1963, it would have had to do something.

After Oswald is arrested, his background would have been determined quickly, and that information conveyed to Washington. So, we know his rifle was found, he shot a cop, and we are fairly certain he did it or was part of it in a major way.

Background: He defected to the Soviet Union. He founded the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He hangs out with anti-Castro Cubans. He may or may not have connections with Intelligence.

You also have a bunch of Generals still pissed off from the previous year, and no way will they lay down a second time. You have people in the streets of New York talking about 'right wing conspiracies' an hour after the event.

You are sitting in an office with a bunch of other people, and you have the power to either end this quickly, or you investigate and let the chips fall where they may. This is 1963 and the internet hasn't been invented yet, so you can't ask your facebook friends to gauge public opinion.

What do you do?

Remember, this decision has to be made quickly, possibly on the evening of November 22. What if this kid has connections that can be traced all the way back to Castro or the Kremlin. What if he has been influenced by the commies. Is he on a government agency payroll anywhere. What if there are 5-10 people in the Operation Mongoose apparatus who went rogue. Who is involved at a higher level directly, indirectly or could be implicated.

If we escalate, let the worst possible conspiracy scenario get out, make demands or threats, this becomes a NATIONAL SECURITY matter of the highest priority.

There is no immediate outside threat to the nation. We have 2 people dead, and it is either the work of one guy, or a small group who have a beef with the president.

You do the responsible thing and avoid mass panic. Oswald has to be a lone nut, and any ties to any other groups quickly shut down. Don't investigate any other links, and hope like hell he actually did it all on his lonesome. If he did it on his own we have no problems. If we investigate and find something we don't like then we may have issues we don't want to deal within any given 4 year term.

The 'cover up' people talk about was done for national security reasons. Investigate how and why the Warren Commission was set up. Why was it needed when it was clearly the act of 1 person acting on his own? The reluctance of a partially senile Earl Warren to head the committee. How was he persuaded? Autopsy evidence was lost. The reconstruction of the TSBC couldn't be done in November 64 to replicate the foliage obstruction due to deadlines. Members of the committee incredulous at the magic bullet theory.

The goal of the report wasn't to investigate a dastardly crime, it was to avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union.

I'm not sure why people use the available evidence to draw conclusions one way or another. If you want to play theory games, go to google maps and type in 1026 N. Beckley Ave Oak Cliff Dallas. Then get directions to 223 S. Ewing Oak Cliff. Oswald lived in the first and Ruby lived in the second address.

See if you can work out which major JFK event happened between these two addresses. How far from this event is Ruby's apartment? Then go back and trace Oswald s path from his house to the texas theatre. Far more interesting than wasting an hour on a doco about an accidental secret service shot that nobody saw.

It doesn't matter, because the guys who were investigating this didn't care. Their goal was national security, not solving a murder. Well at least that's what they told Earl Warren.

Are you familiar with the theory this thread is actually about?

It doesn’t dispute anything about Oswald’s involvement.

Merely that the fatal shot may have been friendly fire.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Are you familiar with the theory this thread is actually about?

It doesn’t dispute anything about Oswald’s involvement.

Merely that the fatal shot may have been friendly fire.

Yes I know. I watched the doco. It's a cool theory; but if it was true, researchers would have done the Bronson film to death to prove it. This was taken at the time of the head shot. Arrow points to friendly fire man, clearly still seated.

Pretty much backs up what Hickey said to the WC. He said he didn't pick up his rifle until after he heard the 3rd shot. None of the SS agents reacted until they saw the headshot.

Question needs to be asked. If this guys ballistics were spot on, and the fatal shot was fired from a second rifle, then who fired the head shot?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Process of deduction I guess. Takes conclusion from ballistics... looks for second weapons in vicinity... finds Hickey.

The use of hollow point by law enforcement is the supporting factor.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Process of deduction I guess. Takes conclusion from ballistics... looks for second weapons in vicinity... finds Hickey.

The use of hollow point by law enforcement is the supporting factor.

I get what you are saying. Photo evidence doesn't establish friendly fire from the back of the follow up car though. In the Altgens photo, taken after shot 2 (JFK has been hit in the back at this stage), Hickey is seated, and his only reaction is to turn in response to hearing gunfire. The view may be obscured, but it doesn't look like he has an automatic rifle cocked and ready to go. The other agents may have begun to realise something was amiss, but the window of opportunity to intervene between shots 2 and 3 was only 3-4 seconds.

Not sure how this guy came to his conclusions with regards to ballistics. The Bethesda pathologists didn't follow protocol. As a result, standard procedures such as shaving the victims head and dissecting the brain to establish points of entry and the bullets path were never done.

WC didn't view the autopsy photos, and relied on drawings. There is a 4 inch discrepancy for the entry wound to the head, from the WC to the HSCA investigations. And there is no physical evidence of a bullet from a second rifle.

I do recall some talk about bullet fragments towards the front of the brain, but there were also fragments found in the limousine which came from a Mannlicher. There's also footage of a Doctor at Parkland talking about digging bullet fragments out of Connolly's leg, even though the magic bullet came out relatively unscathed.

It remains a mystery.

 

[sprockets]

http://www.news.com.au/world/breaki...s/news-story/cab5658c0a36b175b46f86e2227a7f1e

 

[Duritz]

I think it was a plot so they could steal the jack ruby!

 

[Dan Baker]

[GRAPHIC FOOTAGE]

 

[Catoggio76]

I suspect JFK was killed as he didn't want soldiers sent to Vietnam.

Triangulation of Crossfire on that curved road.

 

[mr bagcroft]

JFk was wanting to expose knowledge of ET life.
That is a sure thing to get you murdered.
Same goes for Marilyn Monroe, who unfrotuantely JFK may well have told a few things too.

 

[johnymac1]

There is a new doco on Netflix. Mainly covering the footage from their visit and interviewing Jackie's minders

Also they have recycled the doco "what the doctors saw" its on youtube and paramount. It discusses the ED doctors revelations that they thought it was a frontal attack.

 

[Magruder]

It couldn't be easier:

1. Physical

• Oswald owned the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
• 3 shell casings found under the window of the Book Depository matched that rifle.
• Bullet fragments found in the limousine matched the rifle.
• Oswald's fingerprints all over the 'sniper's nest' setup in that corner of the Book Depository.
• Photographic evidence of Oswald with the same murder weapon months in advance.
• Oswald owned the handgun used to murder J.D.Tippit.

2. Circumstantial

• Left his wedding ring for his wife as well as $170.
• Worked in the building where the shots were fired from.
• Was seen on the 6th floor 30 minutes before the assassination.
• Was the only worker unaccounted for immediately following the event.
• Shot and killed a police officer when questioned on the street.
• Attacked the first police officer who approached him in the theatre.
• Was a trained marksman in the Marines.

3. Psychological

• Attacked his mother and threatened his half-brother's wife at age 12.
• Given a psychiatric assessment at age 13 which said he had passive-aggressive tendencies, and was immersed in a vivid fantasy life.
• Tried to commit suicide when refused citizenship in the Soviet Union.
• Attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker.
• Repeatedly beat the daylights out of his wife.

They're just the bullet points too. Find me any conspiracy theory that has 1% as much evidence as that.

If you consider every proposed candidate from Nicoletti to Files to Sate none have anywhere near the level of evidence