JFK: The Smoking Gun

[Partridge]

I am merely a layman, someone who might dabble in physics

Back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left.

How are the laws of physics affected when the victim is trussed up in a back brace?

Just to be clear, I agree that on first look, it does look like it came from the front. But when you examine it frame by frame, the spray definitely goes forward. Plus of course, it matches the entry and exit wound to the skull, and the fragments in the car.

 

[MisterMarcus]

It couldn't be easier:

1. Physical

- Oswald owned the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
- 3 shell casings found under the window of the Book Depository matched that rifle.
- Bullet fragments found in the limousine matched the rifle.
- Oswald's fingerprints all over the 'sniper's nest' setup in that corner of the Book Depository.
- Photographic evidence of Oswald with the same murder weapon months in advance.
- Oswald owned the handgun used to murder J.D.Tippit.

2. Circumstantial

- Left his wedding ring for his wife as well as $170.
- Worked in the building where the shots were fired from.
- Was seen on the 6th floor 30 minutes before the assassination.
- Was the only worker unaccounted for immediately following the event.
- Shot and killed a police officer when questioned on the street.
- Attacked the first police officer who approached him in the theatre.
- Was a trained marksman in the Marines.

3. Psychological

- Attacked his mother and threatened his half-brother's wife at age 12.
- Given a psychiatric assessment at age 13 which said he had passive-aggressive tendencies, and was immersed in a vivid fantasy life.
- Tried to commit suicide when refused citizenship in the Soviet Union.
- Attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker.
- Repeatedly beat the daylights out of his wife.


They're just the bullet points too. Find me any conspiracy theory that has 1% as much evidence as that.

But but but.....all the evidence is just even further proof of the conspiracy!!!!

Amidoingitrite?

 

[CountryRace]

1.20-1.40

 

[Thrawn]

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Huh?

 

[Moshie The Mook]

The theory that a secret service agent accidentally shot the president is insane and shouldn't even be entertained. It is preposterous.

The JFK assassination was the greatest threat the world has ever faced. It could have been the catalyst for WW3. The previous year the world came to the brink of catastrophe with the Cuban Missile Crisis. The 3 players in that saga were Russia, Cuba and the USA.

Fast forward a year, and the president is assassinated by a guy who had defected to the Soviet Union and had links to anti-Castro groups in New Orleans. So again, the Soviet Union threatening US national security using Cuba to do it. Now, if it comes out this guy has been influenced or helped by either groups, then the US is in a Cuban Missile Crisis situation again, this time it would have to be the aggressor.

There is no other course of action it could have taken, or seen to be taking. In 1963, it would have had to do something.

After Oswald is arrested, his background would have been determined quickly, and that information conveyed to Washington. So, we know his rifle was found, he shot a cop, and we are fairly certain he did it or was part of it in a major way.

Background: He defected to the Soviet Union. He founded the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He hangs out with anti-Castro Cubans. He may or may not have connections with Intelligence.

You also have a bunch of Generals still pissed off from the previous year, and no way will they lay down a second time. You have people in the streets of New York talking about 'right wing conspiracies' an hour after the event.

You are sitting in an office with a bunch of other people, and you have the power to either end this quickly, or you investigate and let the chips fall where they may. This is 1963 and the internet hasn't been invented yet, so you can't ask your facebook friends to gauge public opinion.

What do you do?

Remember, this decision has to be made quickly, possibly on the evening of November 22. What if this kid has connections that can be traced all the way back to Castro or the Kremlin. What if he has been influenced by the commies. Is he on a government agency payroll anywhere. What if there are 5-10 people in the Operation Mongoose apparatus who went rogue. Who is involved at a higher level directly, indirectly or could be implicated.

If we escalate, let the worst possible conspiracy scenario get out, make demands or threats, this becomes a NATIONAL SECURITY matter of the highest priority.

There is no immediate outside threat to the nation. We have 2 people dead, and it is either the work of one guy, or a small group who have a beef with the president.

You do the responsible thing and avoid mass panic. Oswald has to be a lone nut, and any ties to any other groups quickly shut down. Don't investigate any other links, and hope like hell he actually did it all on his lonesome. If he did it on his own we have no problems. If we investigate and find something we don't like then we may have issues we don't want to deal within any given 4 year term.

The 'cover up' people talk about was done for national security reasons. Investigate how and why the Warren Commission was set up. Why was it needed when it was clearly the act of 1 person acting on his own? The reluctance of a partially senile Earl Warren to head the committee. How was he persuaded? Autopsy evidence was lost. The reconstruction of the TSBC couldn't be done in November 64 to replicate the foliage obstruction due to deadlines. Members of the committee incredulous at the magic bullet theory.

The goal of the report wasn't to investigate a dastardly crime, it was to avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union.

I'm not sure why people use the available evidence to draw conclusions one way or another. If you want to play theory games, go to google maps and type in 1026 N. Beckley Ave Oak Cliff Dallas. Then get directions to 223 S. Ewing Oak Cliff. Oswald lived in the first and Ruby lived in the second address.

See if you can work out which major JFK event happened between these two addresses. How far from this event is Ruby's apartment? Then go back and trace Oswald s path from his house to the texas theatre. Far more interesting than wasting an hour on a doco about an accidental secret service shot that nobody saw.

It doesn't matter, because the guys who were investigating this didn't care. Their goal was national security, not solving a murder. Well at least that's what they told Earl Warren.

 

[Partridge]

The theory that a secret service agent accidentally shot the president is insane and shouldn't even be entertained. It is preposterous.

Totally agree with you on that one.

The JFK assassination was the greatest threat the world has ever faced. It could have been the catalyst for WW3. The previous year the world came to the brink of catastrophe with the Cuban Missile Crisis. The 3 players in that saga were Russia, Cuba and the USA.

Umm.......no it wasn't.

After Oswald is arrested, his background would have been determined quickly, and that information conveyed to Washington. So, we know his rifle was found, he shot a cop, and we are fairly certain he did it or was part of it in a major way.

Background: He defected to the Soviet Union. He founded the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He hangs out with anti-Castro Cubans. He may or may not have connections with Intelligence.

'May not' is the answer you're looking for. He desperately wanted to live that lifestyle, but unfortunately it was mainly inside his head and nowhere else. He did found the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He also recruited precisely zero new members. As in most things in his life, he failed completely at it.

You also have a bunch of Generals still pissed off from the previous year, and no way will they lay down a second time. You have people in the streets of New York talking about 'right wing conspiracies' an hour after the event.

There are people who talk about 'right wing conspiracies' 24 hours a day now (plenty on this site too). Not quite sure it decides government policy.

You do the responsible thing and avoid mass panic. Oswald has to be a lone nut, and any ties to any other groups quickly shut down. Don't investigate any other links, and hope like hell he actually did it all on his lonesome. If he did it on his own we have no problems. If we investigate and find something we don't like then we may have issues we don't want to deal within any given 4 year term.

The report weighs in at 888 pages. Not bad for people who weren't actually investigating anything. As it turns out, he did do it on his lonesome.

The 'cover up' people talk about was done for national security reasons. Investigate how and why the Warren Commission was set up. Why was it needed when it was clearly the act of 1 person acting on his own? The reluctance of a partially senile Earl Warren to head the committee. How was he persuaded? Autopsy evidence was lost. The reconstruction of the TSBC couldn't be done in November 64 to replicate the foliage obstruction due to deadlines. Members of the committee incredulous at the magic bullet theory.

The reconstruction of the shooting may not have been done in November 1964 (I don't know, so let's assume that's correct), but they've recreated it plenty of times since.

The members are incredulous at the magic bullet theory........so what? Doesn't mean it's not true. Anyone who can understand basic geometry can understand it, and see how it works pretty quickly.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Umm.......no it wasn't.

A marxist sympathiser who had defected to Russia has just shot the President of the United States, a year after the Cuban missile crisis. Can you think of anything else that had more potential to threaten world peace on November 22 1963?

'May not' is the answer you're looking for. He desperately wanted to live that lifestyle, but unfortunately it was mainly inside his head and nowhere else. He did found the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He also recruited precisely zero new members. As in most things in his life, he failed completely at it.

Nobody knew the extent of his lifestyle or his involvement with anyone immediately after the assassination.

There are people who talk about 'right wing conspiracies' 24 hours a day now (plenty on this site too). Not quite sure it decides government policy.

Yes but the President doesn't get shot every day, and public opinion does tend to matter to politicians.

The report weighs in at 888 pages. Not bad for people who weren't actually investigating anything. As it turns out, he did do it on his lonesome.

Good. There was nothing to worry about then. Only the paranoid survive.

The reconstruction of the shooting may not have been done in November 1964 (I don't know, so let's assume that's correct), but they've recreated it plenty of times since.

Yes they have, after the tree was cut down.

The members are incredulous at the magic bullet theory........so what? Doesn't mean it's not true. Anyone who can understand basic geometry can understand it, and see how it works pretty quickly.

Meh details. Job done and potential crisis averted.

My post was more about the actions and decisions immediately after the assassination. WW1 kicked off after the assassination of a public figure. If not handled correctly, it could so easily have gotten way out of hand.

 

[Partridge]

My post was more about the actions and decisions immediately after the assassination. WW1 kicked off after the assassination of a public figure. If not handled correctly, it could so easily have gotten way out of hand.

Yeah that's a fair comment. I think as tense as the US and the Soviet Union were, even in November 1963, I don't think they were positively itching for war like the major powers of Europe were in August 1914. That's the major difference. Plus of course everyone knew what the results could be in 1963, in 1914 very few realised what mechanised industrial technology could do when let loose.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Yeah that's a fair comment. I think as tense as the US and the Soviet Union were, even in November 1963, I don't think they were positively itching for war like the major powers of Europe were in August 1914. That's the major difference. Plus of course everyone knew what the results could be in 1963, in 1914 very few realised what mechanised industrial technology could do when let loose.

You'd think they would have learned after WW2, but no. Both sides amassed a nuclear arsenal that could blow the **** off the world several times over. It's almost bizarre reading about the Cuban Missile Crisis. Every If/Then scenario they gamed ended in disaster.

As RFK later recalled, the Executive Committee of the National Security Council advising JFK during the crisis was full of “bright, able dedicated people, all of whom had the greatest affection for the US, [but] if six of them had been President...the world might have been blown up”.

Anyway, back to the topic. The WC gave us the bare bones. Leads that routinely would have been investigated weren't followed up. For example: Only one journalist, Edward Epstein, actually interviewed the committee members and was given remarkable access

John J. McCloy, the former high commissioner of Germany, believed it was possible Oswald acted on behalf of others, or at least that the possibility could not be precluded. He thought Oswald may have been a sleeper agent who went haywire, and he was intrigued by a letter that Oswald wrote to the Soviet Embassy 10 days before the assassination. In that letter Oswald mentioned he had a meeting in Mexico City with Valeriy Vladimirovich Kostikov, a KGB officer (Oswald referred to him as "comrade Kostin"). Oswald wrote that he had not been able to "complete our business" because he had been unable "to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned. I could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless I used my real name, so I returned to the United States." McCloy told me the letter reeked of intrigue.

And anyone who is interested in the case has seen the Lyndon Johnson interview where he said he couldn't categorically say there was no conspiracy. The deadline given to the committee meant they couldn't flesh out all the facts. Hence why we have conspiracy theories. Case closed or not, it's bloody interesting.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The theory that a secret service agent accidentally shot the president is insane and shouldn't even be entertained. It is preposterous.

The JFK assassination was the greatest threat the world has ever faced. It could have been the catalyst for WW3. The previous year the world came to the brink of catastrophe with the Cuban Missile Crisis. The 3 players in that saga were Russia, Cuba and the USA.

Fast forward a year, and the president is assassinated by a guy who had defected to the Soviet Union and had links to anti-Castro groups in New Orleans. So again, the Soviet Union threatening US national security using Cuba to do it. Now, if it comes out this guy has been influenced or helped by either groups, then the US is in a Cuban Missile Crisis situation again, this time it would have to be the aggressor.

There is no other course of action it could have taken, or seen to be taking. In 1963, it would have had to do something.

After Oswald is arrested, his background would have been determined quickly, and that information conveyed to Washington. So, we know his rifle was found, he shot a cop, and we are fairly certain he did it or was part of it in a major way.

Background: He defected to the Soviet Union. He founded the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He hangs out with anti-Castro Cubans. He may or may not have connections with Intelligence.

You also have a bunch of Generals still pissed off from the previous year, and no way will they lay down a second time. You have people in the streets of New York talking about 'right wing conspiracies' an hour after the event.

You are sitting in an office with a bunch of other people, and you have the power to either end this quickly, or you investigate and let the chips fall where they may. This is 1963 and the internet hasn't been invented yet, so you can't ask your facebook friends to gauge public opinion.

What do you do?

Remember, this decision has to be made quickly, possibly on the evening of November 22. What if this kid has connections that can be traced all the way back to Castro or the Kremlin. What if he has been influenced by the commies. Is he on a government agency payroll anywhere. What if there are 5-10 people in the Operation Mongoose apparatus who went rogue. Who is involved at a higher level directly, indirectly or could be implicated.

If we escalate, let the worst possible conspiracy scenario get out, make demands or threats, this becomes a NATIONAL SECURITY matter of the highest priority.

There is no immediate outside threat to the nation. We have 2 people dead, and it is either the work of one guy, or a small group who have a beef with the president.

You do the responsible thing and avoid mass panic. Oswald has to be a lone nut, and any ties to any other groups quickly shut down. Don't investigate any other links, and hope like hell he actually did it all on his lonesome. If he did it on his own we have no problems. If we investigate and find something we don't like then we may have issues we don't want to deal within any given 4 year term.

The 'cover up' people talk about was done for national security reasons. Investigate how and why the Warren Commission was set up. Why was it needed when it was clearly the act of 1 person acting on his own? The reluctance of a partially senile Earl Warren to head the committee. How was he persuaded? Autopsy evidence was lost. The reconstruction of the TSBC couldn't be done in November 64 to replicate the foliage obstruction due to deadlines. Members of the committee incredulous at the magic bullet theory.

The goal of the report wasn't to investigate a dastardly crime, it was to avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union.

I'm not sure why people use the available evidence to draw conclusions one way or another. If you want to play theory games, go to google maps and type in 1026 N. Beckley Ave Oak Cliff Dallas. Then get directions to 223 S. Ewing Oak Cliff. Oswald lived in the first and Ruby lived in the second address.

See if you can work out which major JFK event happened between these two addresses. How far from this event is Ruby's apartment? Then go back and trace Oswald s path from his house to the texas theatre. Far more interesting than wasting an hour on a doco about an accidental secret service shot that nobody saw.

It doesn't matter, because the guys who were investigating this didn't care. Their goal was national security, not solving a murder. Well at least that's what they told Earl Warren.

Starting macro and zooming in. That's all circumstantial.

Remove everything else and look at the crime scene, that's what this theory is about.

Why would one bullet pass straight through Kennedy, and the other explode upon impact?

That's the question that needs to be answered.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Starting macro and zooming in. That's all circumstantial.

Remove everything else and look at the crime scene, that's what this theory is about.

Why would one bullet pass straight through Kennedy, and the other explode upon impact?

That's the question that needs to be answered.

As far as I know the official investigation found one bullet (the magic bullet) and fragments of another carcano bullet in the limousine. According to the WC, these fragments came from the head shot. If the fragments found in the front seat and under Nellie Connolly's seat can be proved to have come from another rifle, then I suppose a second rifle can be looked at.

 

[Partridge]

As far as I know the official investigation found one bullet (the magic bullet) and fragments of another carcano bullet in the limousine. According to the WC, these fragments came from the head shot. If the fragments found in the front seat and under Nellie Connolly's seat can be proved to have come from another rifle, then I suppose a second rifle can be looked at.

Absolutely. But that's the weak link in any conspiracy theory - no actual physical evidence. There are other gunmen apparently, other shots fired apparently, but there are no rifles, no bullets, no nothing. Every time you ask for that, it's a variation on the 'well, someone took them away...' theme. Sorry, but not good enough. If you're making a claim, you have to provide tangible evidence. All the physical evidence points in only one direction.

The difference in the two bullets does definitely look weird, no argument there. But once you examine what happened, it becomes less so. The first show went through Kennedy's neck, then ploughed into Connelly. When you hear that bullets can go into yaw after passing through an object, you tend to roll your eyes (I did). But on the PBS Nova special 'Cold Case: JFK', they filmed a bullet going through ballistic gel at 20,000 frames per second, and it absolutely does go into yaw. Which matches exactly the entry into Connelly's jacket too.

The third shot (or 'kill' shot), is more straightforward, it had nothing to stop it, and hit solid bone at 2100 feet per second. Hence far more destructive damage, and bullet fragments in the car.

 

[PoppedCorn]

didnt the guy next to the driver in jfks car do it?

 

[_Mike_]

The unofficial story is that it was an accidental misfire from a CIA agent from behind who tried to jump on the back of Kennedy's car with gun in hand..

According to a docco that was played a few months back (will look for the title and post)

 

[keepzitreal]

John Conally was the trigger man on the fatal shot...they edited the video... there is actually traces of smoke from the gunshot... inside the car...

 

[Partridge]

The unofficial story is that it was an accidental misfire from a CIA agent from behind who tried to jump on the back of Kennedy's car with gun in hand..

According to a docco that was played a few months back (will look for the title and post)

I think it was the thread title.

The problem is there's a photo that shows the gun being raised, but it's after Kennedy's already been shot. And it hits the same wall all the other 'different gunman' theories do - no evidence. No gun, no bullets, no fragments.

 

[CountryRace]

Don't forget: a memphis jury found US government guilty of conspiring to kill MLK jr ...

 

[van peebles]

The reconstruction of the shooting may not have been done in November 1964 (I don't know, so let's assume that's correct), but they've recreated it plenty of times since.

The members are incredulous at the magic bullet theory........so what? Doesn't mean it's not true. Anyone who can understand basic geometry can understand it, and see how it works pretty quickly.

Not getting into a diatribe about JFK.
But due to significant changes,the reconstruction of the shooting could never be duplicated.
This was always a fact that most productions{book or film}would overlook due to time constraints and the urge to paste over that bit.

 

[CountryRace]

Not getting into a diatribe about JFK.
But due to significant changes,the reconstruction of the shooting could never be duplicated.
This was always a fact that most productions{book or film}would overlook due to time constraints and the urge to paste over that bit.

Can u explain what's different pls

Why it would not be possible

Is th book depos. Not there?

Is ossies line of site to where the car would of been not there?

 

[van peebles]

Can u explain what's different pls

Why it would not be possible

Is th book depos. Not there?

Is ossies line of site to where the car would of been not there?

Over the last 40+ years, Elm Street has been resurfaced several times; street lane stripes have been relocated; sidewalk lamp posts have been moved and added; trees, bushes and hedges have grown; and some traffic sign locations have been changed, relocated or removed. In late 2003, the city of Dallas approved construction project plans to restore Dealey Plaza to its exact appearance on November 22, 1963. As of 2004[update], voters had approved US$500,000 of the $3,000,000 needed.[5]
Was changed since day 3 of the assasination.Trees actually cut down to make the re-enactment better and easier to do.
Road resurfaced Before warren commission re-enactment.
Lots of furfies about JFK,but dealey plazza never the same after 3 days of jfk.

 

[little graham]

Why would one bullet pass straight through Kennedy, and the other explode upon impact?

.

That bullet took more turns than an epileptic during electric shock therapy.

 

[little graham]

The unofficial story is that it was an accidental misfire from a CIA agent from behind who tried to jump on the back of Kennedy's car with gun in hand..

According to a docco that was played a few months back (will look for the title and post)

 

[sherbrook]

Absolutely. But that's the weak link in any conspiracy theory - no actual physical evidence. There are other gunmen apparently, other shots fired apparently, but there are no rifles, no bullets, no nothing. Every time you ask for that, it's a variation on the 'well, someone took them away...' theme. Sorry, but not good enough. If you're making a claim, you have to provide tangible evidence. All the physical evidence points in only one direction.

The difference in the two bullets does definitely look weird, no argument there. But once you examine what happened, it becomes less so. The first show went through Kennedy's neck, then ploughed into Connelly. When you hear that bullets can go into yaw after passing through an object, you tend to roll your eyes (I did). But on the PBS Nova special 'Cold Case: JFK', they filmed a bullet going through ballistic gel at 20,000 frames per second, and it absolutely does go into yaw. Which matches exactly the entry into Connelly's jacket too.

The third shot (or 'kill' shot), is more straightforward, it had nothing to stop it, and hit solid bone at 2100 feet per second. Hence far more destructive damage, and bullet fragments in the car.

John Connally actually believed to his dying day that LHO shot at him and not Kennedy.

His reasoning was that Oswald was given a dishonourable discharge from the Marines and had approached Connally in his capacity as state governor of Texas to have the discharge quashed (because a DD from the services severely impacts on employment prospects)

Connally refused and there's your motive

This story was in Newsweek in the early 90s I believe

 

[Duritz]

John Connally actually believed to his dying day that LHO shot at him and not Kennedy.

His reasoning was that Oswald was given a dishonourable discharge from the Marines and had approached Connally in his capacity as state governor of Texas to have the discharge quashed (because a DD from the services severely impacts on employment prospects)

Connally refused and there's your motive

This story was in Newsweek in the early 90s I believe

Now that is interesting!