Michael Voss vs. Luke Hodge

[Monkey King]

Yeah....Judd played well in his 2 Grand Finals...But his career at West Coast as compared to Carlton was like chalk/cheese.

Not at all. His performances in finals at Carlton were something else. Leigh Matthews went as far as to say one of those was the best finals performance he'd seen, which regardless of whether you agree or not, is high praise. The fact is, that Hodge does not occupy some level of finals performance far above everyone. It's a myth.

 

[Demonated]

Nope. Embley did not poll in the NS voting of both Grand Finals, while some people actually thought Judd should have won the NS in 2006 too. Embley does not have a finals record like Judd either. So yeah nah, sorry, Judd played exceptionally well in every Grand Final he played in. To say Hodge's performances are unparalleled in the modern era is just hyperbole. Hawk supporters always reach for this (and leadership) as a point of separation in comparisons of Hodge with better players, but for a player like Voss, it just looks silly. Voss was every bit a leader and big game clutch player as Hodge is ... and a better player to boot.



So you're saying Voss won an MVP because he was captain of the team who won the flag the year before? Turn it up!

Where does this leave Hodge then? He's been in that position a few times now and yet no cigar. Sounds like tripe to me.

I couldn't agree more. Any look into statistic output comparative to regular season games shows virtually no change in Hodge's performances from regular season to finals. Players with similar outputs include Pendlebury, Judd, Ablett, Steve Johnson and Mitchell. Some of them like Mitchell and Ablett actually increase their output slightly during finals. This is being spoken of by a poster who has been a regular Leigh Matthews worshipper, who actually decreased in output in terms of both disposals and goals during finals.

He will now go on and talk specifically about Hodge's grand final performances. This is nitpicking such a small sample size that it's very hard to compare with other players. Firstly, all those I have mentioned (and Voss too) have shown they are capable of performing in a GF. Secondly, many of Hawthorns biggest challenges in their recent finals have not actually come in the GF, with prelims often being the game that has generally been the biggest challenge. Thirdly, who has tagged Hodge in these finals? As far as I know opposition are generally putting their best tagger on Mitchell, who despite all this has actually improved his performances.

Using only a players grand final performances to compare between players entire careers and determine who is better isn't an argument that I have heard until now. When people compare the greats of the past, grand finals performances specifically are very rarely used as the only measuring stick. Did Wayne Carey have a better grand final record than Sticks Kerhanan? My memory tells me no, but overwhelming consensus is that Carey was the better player, as he dominated more over time.

 

[Procrastinator35]

He will now go on and talk specifically about Hodge's grand final performances. This is nitpicking such a small sample size that it's very hard to compare with other players. Firstly, all those I have mentioned (and Voss too) have shown they are capable of performing in a GF. Secondly, many of Hawthorns biggest challenges in their recent finals have not actually come in the GF, with prelims often being the game that has generally been the biggest challenge. Thirdly, who has tagged Hodge in these finals? As far as I know opposition are generally putting their best tagger on Mitchell, who despite all this has actually improved his performances.
.

4/5 Grand Finals is hardly a small sample.....It's the biggest day in the footy calendar & where the pressure to perform is at it's zenith, in terms of temperament/nerve in dealing with that high-octane pressure....As Captain of his team, Hodge not only overcomes these obstacles, but sets an example by doing so.

Any attempt to undersell a players performance in winning Grand Finals is a futile one, which ought rightly to open such attempts, to the ridicule they deserve.

 

[Demonated]

4/5 Grand Finals is hardly a small sample.....It's the biggest day in the footy calendar & where the pressure to perform is at it's zenith, in terms of temperament/nerve in dealing with that high-octane pressure....As Captain of his team, Hodge not only overcomes these obstacles, but sets an example by doing so.

Any attempt to undersell a players performance in winning Grand Finals is a futile one, which ought rightly to open such attempts, to the ridicule they deserve.

You've completely misunderstood that part then. Someone suggested Judd's record in GFs didn't hold as much weight as he only played in 2, both where he got NSM votes. How is he meant to poll votes in GFs he has not played in? He has a 100% record from a small sample size, while Hodge has an 80% record from a slightly bigger one.

Regardless, 2 or 5 games out of a career ARE a small sample size mate. You should be ridiculed if you don't actually understand what a small sample size is. Like I said, if grand final performances are the primary measure of a player, I doubt Wayne Carey is in the top 50 of all time. We all know this not to be the case, as he is generally regarded anywhere between 1st-5th all time.

I'm not trying to undersell Hodge's GF performances, they are elite. They don't provide proof of him being better than Voss though.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Regardless, 2 or 5 games out of a career ARE a small sample size mate. You should be ridiculed if you don't actually understand what a small sample size is. Like I said, if grand final performances are the primary measure of a player, I doubt Wayne Carey is in the top 50 of all time. We all know this not to be the case, as he is generally regarded anywhere between 1st-5th all time.

I'm not trying to undersell Hodge's GF performances, they are elite. They don't provide proof of him being better than Voss though.

No one has said that....They are however, a significant measure of a players ability to stand up in big games when EVERYTHING is on the line....That much ought to be self-evident....The fact Hodge does it so consistently (When he's not injured) is a mark of his standing as both a Captain & as a footballer.

We all know the adage; 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going'. Well, it doesn't get any tougher than in Grand Finals....Yet people laud Voss for his toughness & standing as a footballer. Yet, in the same breath, say Hodge doesn't compare....Complete bollocks.

 

[M Malice]

with the discussion being dominated by grand final performance of late, i have tried to get a list of the judges grand final votes for the norm smith. can find the judges votes for hawthorns GFs but can't find the lions judges votes from 01-04. anyone?? would be interesting to compare, from my recollection voss was mighty unlucky not to win the norm smith in 2002, if judging was done after the game he more than likely would have won it.

 

[Dom PC]

Voss averaged 18.21 disposals and 0.9 goals per game in finals
Hodge averages 22.24 disposals and 0.8 goals per game in finals

Voss averaged 21.25 disposals and 0.5 goals per game in Grand Finals
Hodge averages 25.8 disposals and 0.8 goals per game in Grand Finals

Just going off this above information.

There has been a least a 20% inflation in disposal numbers between the Lions 3peat and the Hawks 3peat (and the 08 season).

If you adjust Voss's disposal numbers for the 20% inflation:

In finals, Voss averaged 21.85 disposals vs Hodge's 22.24 disposals

In GF's Voss averaged 25.50 disposals vs Hodge's 25.80 disposals

I don't think I am twisting anything here... looking at those figures, I'm not sure anyone can really be seriously mounting a case against Voss being as good in finals as Hodge.

 

[Demonated]

No one has said that....They are however, a significant measure of a players ability to stand up in big games when EVERYTHING is on the line....That much ought to be self-evident....The fact Hodge does it so consistently (When he's not injured) is a mark of his standing as both a Captain & as a footballer.

We all know the adage; 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going'. Well, it doesn't get any tougher than in Grand Finals....Yet people laud Voss for his toughness & standing as a footballer. Yet, in the same breath, say Hodge doesn't compare....Complete bollocks.

Hodge does compare in grand finals with Voss easily, anyone denying that obviously has it in for Hodge. Across finals in general I'd say they are very comparable- tough, skilled and helped their team wins finals and premierships. I'm not going to deny that.

What I believe is that while they are on even pegging for finals, Voss was also a dominant player in regular season too, receiving multiple awards for the best player in the comp (3 different seasons over 2 different awards) while also getting more AA and b&fs than Hodge. This is why I view Voss as superior. Equally as effective in finals but Voss was able to dominate more games and seasons over the course of his career.

 

[Monkey King]

Just going off this above information.

There has been a least a 20% inflation in disposal numbers between the Lions 3peat and the Hawks 3peat (and the 08 season).

If you adjust Voss's disposal numbers for the 20% inflation:

In finals, Voss averaged 21.85 disposals vs Hodge's 22.24 disposals

In GF's Voss averaged 25.50 disposals vs Hodge's 25.80 disposals

I don't think I am twisting anything here... looking at those figures, I'm not sure anyone can really be seriously mounting a case against Voss being as good in finals as Hodge.

And each game is its own battle. In 2001 for example, Voss only had 23 touches, but no one on the ground had more than him. So while Hodge may have picked up 35 touches in the Hawks romp against the Swans, it wasn't even a game high tally - his teammates were also running rampant with little resistance. It just shows how a head-to-head stat comparison not so accurate a measure of performance.

 

[Dom PC]

And each game is its own battle. In 2001 for example, Voss only had 23 touches, but no one on the ground had more than him. So while Hodge may have picked up 35 touches in the Hawks romp against the Swans, it wasn't even a game high tally - his teammates were also running rampant with little resistance. It just shows how a head-to-head stat comparison not so accurate a measure of performance.

To add to this. The Hawks averaged 385 disposals over their 5 GF's, while the Lions averaged 276 over their 4 GF's

Voss's GF average of 21 disposals is actually very, very good! (it's actually arguably better than Hodge's GF record)

 

[Procrastinator35]

To add to this. The Hawks averaged 385 disposals over their 5 GF's, while the Lions averaged 276 over their 4 GF's

Voss's GF average of 21 disposals is actually very, very good! (it's actually arguably better than Hodge's GF record)

Did Voss poll NSM votes in all 4 Grand Finals then?....Yeah....Nice try but.

And you have the temerity to accuse Hodgepodge off fudging numbers to suit his arguments.

 

[Dom PC]

Did Voss poll NSM votes in all 4 Grand Finals then?....Yeah....Nice try but.

And you have the temerity to accuse Hodgepodge off fudging numbers to suit his arguments.

What numbers have I fudged?

 

[Procrastinator35]

What numbers have I fudged?

Your conclusion that Voss's grand final record is the equal to Hodge's, was premised upon a historical revisionist comparative reading of the stats....Such a shame then, that the independent panels voting on thee NSM don't agree with your conclusion.

Er......You were saying?

 

[Dom PC]

Your conclusion that Voss's grand final record is the equal to Hodge's, was premised upon a historical revisionist comparative reading of the stats....Such a shame then, that the independent panels voting on thee NSM don't agree with your conclusion.

Er......You were saying?

You think Voss played poorly in his GF's?

 

[Monkey King]

We all know the adage; 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going'. Well, it doesn't get any tougher than in Grand Finals....Yet people laud Voss for his toughness & standing as a footballer. Yet, in the same breath, say Hodge doesn't compare....Complete bollocks.

Back to the MVP's, Brownlow, All Australians and B&F's ... Hodge doesn't compare. Only a Hawk fan full of man-love would dispute this. Which funnily enough, is the theme of this thread.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Back to the MVP's, Brownlow, All Australians and B&F's ... Hodge doesn't compare. Only a Hawk fan full of man-love would dispute this. Which funnily enough, is the theme of this thread.

One Might say the same for your Judd gushings...And Dom PC's Voss lurve....What's your point?

 

[Procrastinator35]

You think Voss played poorly in his GF's?

No, never said that....He's done well enough....Just not to the same degree of consistent high-level performance Hodge has.

You can see the symmetry there surely?.....Those same arguments you & others use in this thread to dismiss Hodge as compatible with Voss, can be used in return, on the biggest stage of them all, when it matters most.

No one is arguing Hodge has been as consistent as Voss, but when he needs to perform, he can more than match it with him when necessary....Ergo, he is every bit the same caliber of player Voss is....Hence, this thread.

 

[Gone Critical]

One Might say the same for your Judd gushings...And Dom PC's Voss lurve....What's your point?

As an independent in this (and one who prefers the Hawks easily over Brisbane or Carlton) my conclusion would be the Judd gushing and Voss lurve is more justified than the Hodge hyperbole.

 

[Gone Critical]

LOL, stop trying to discredit me, I remember this happening, it's just that Essendon supporters might be able to give you the specifics you are after.

Went to the Essendon board as suggested. No one can remember a trial like you have suggested. The main consensus was Hird occasionally put himself back in a game when they needed him because Sheedy gave him licence to roam where he wanted. Essendon supporters suggested he played very well there when he did. Some say he may have played an occasional game there early in his career or coming back from his facial injury and did well when he did. They were all pretty certain there was no trial of him playing off HBF.

Seems funny that you "remember this happening" when using it as a point to discredit Voss's potential to play HBF. It seems a little made up story and has about as much credibility as the crazy concept that Voss would have been a diminished player as a HBFlanker.

 

[Procrastinator35]

As an independent in this (and one who prefers the Hawks easily over Brisbane or Carlton) my conclusion would be the Judd gushing and Voss lurve is more justified than the Hodge hyperbole.

Yes....Your opinion on the matter has been well documented.

The fact that so many posters are attempting to unsuccessfully counter my Grand Final premise, is evidence enough of their desperate need to diminish Hodge as a player & downplay the scale & magnitude of his achievements..

Where is the hyperbole in 2 NSM's & receiving votes in the award in all 4 Winning Grand Finals?....Just saying the word, does not render it thus.

 

[M Malice]

maybe a new thread should be started? > "who was the better player in grand finals voss v hodge v judd v ?????"

 

[detox]

I don't buy into this for a minute. Voss was an extremely skilled footballer with a tonne of ability. Watched him play as a young lad well before his frame filled out and his talent was obvious. There's a reason Voss is a top tier player and Hodge has been second tier for most of his career.



Voss turned games mate. You're in denial.

Same old crap as the Judd thread mate.

You can keep wheeling out phrases like "second teir players" and "club champion" describing Hodge if it helps you pretend your little love child has that big a gap over him all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that in reality your discussing a future HOFer who would make the best side of the last 10-15 years. Pretending he is some kind of run of the mill player who is seriously lacking compared to basically anyone just further ruins your already pretty average credibility as a poster.

Second, How long are you going to keep pretending that Hodge spent time in defence because he wasn't a good enough midfielder? Please watch the last 3 grand finals where Hodge was only playing as a midfielder and educate yourself, although I feel you will psychologically block out most of it out, so it would be a futile exercise.

Third, This isn't a Judd thread mate, so I dont know why you're here throwing Judds name around- the all time example of hype over output(At least the Carlton version). Judd had a very good finals record, but if you want to try to peg Hodge down a level, I'd look in places other than his finals record because its among the best of all time and im not just talking about grand finals.






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[Gone Critical]

Yes....Your opinion on the matter has been well documented.

The fact that so many posters are attempting to unsuccessfully counter my Grand Final premise, is evidence enough of their desperate need to diminish Hodge as a player & downplay the scale & magnitude of his achievements..

Where is the hyperbole in 2 NSM's & receiving votes in the award in all 4 Winning Grand Finals?....Just saying the word, does not render it thus.

Don't worry Procrastinator I enjoy your toil. Your unbridled enthusiasm and refusal to believe anyone could be better than a player wearing Brown and Gold. I do suspect this is all a little sport to you, put out the unrealistic bait and see what bites. I bite because it's a bit of fun and I like the discussion. Still as we go through the motions I know I am being had a little and you can't believe all the hyperbole you put up. Don't stop though we need the zealot- shite stirrers on BF. You add colour and fun.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Don't worry Procrastinator I enjoy your toil. Your unbridled enthusiasm and refusal to believe anyone could be better than a player wearing Brown and Gold. I do suspect this is all a little sport to you, put out the unrealistic bait and see what bites. I bite because it's a bit of fun and I like the discussion. Still as we go through the motions I know I am being had a little and you can't believe all the hyperbole you put up. Don't stop though we need the zealot- shite stirrers on BF. You add colour and fun.

Hodge's legacy & standing as a footballer will, I believe, speak for itself with the passing of time.

Have no hesitation in offering his name up as the equal to Judd & Voss....Yes I''m an unabashed fan....And rightly so.

Too often has Hodge gone into the midfield to win a crucial clearance when a game has been on the line these past 3 seasons, to be convinced otherwise of his greatness....His efforts alone, on many occasions, have been the difference maker in us securing a top 2/4 spot on the ladder.....And with it, the possibility for Premiership glory.

Yes it is all good fun, but in jest?.... No!

 

[Monkey King]

You can keep wheeling out phrases like "second teir players" and "club champion" describing Hodge ..

Second, How long are you going to keep pretending that Hodge spent time in defence because he wasn't a good enough midfielder?

Third, This isn't a Judd thread mate, so I dont know why you're here throwing Judds name around...

On your three points ...

Hodge is not a top tier player. Sorry. No slight on him. It's just a fact.

Please quote a post of mine in this thread to support your assertion.

Just showing Hodge's finals record is far from unparalleled, as was claimed. Obvious really.