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Nostradumbass said:
Watched the repeat with Loewe last night. I thought it was a decent episode. Never knew about the relative being in hospital story. Agree with what another poster said, he should have probed him more about Alves.
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I remember Alves seemingly being under the pump every single week at St Kilda during his time there. Always seemed like he was just one more loss from a sacking, even when they were going well.
 
Damon_3388 said:
I remember Alves seemingly being under the pump every single week at St Kilda during his time there. Always seemed like he was just one more loss from a sacking, even when they were going well.
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I was told years ago that he had or was on the verge of having a breakdown. Probably bullshit but that's the story I was told.
 

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Dread to think how he would fare under the modern 24 hour 'news' regime then.
 
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I watched it last night on replay and thought it was a pretty good epsiode. Surprised how honest Loewe was.

This is more a comment to gain opinion from people, but did anyone think he was blaming the coaches alot for the lack of success and ornot achieveing the ultimate prize?

Fair enough Blight was a stupid idea and didn't work, and probably neither did Watson, but just wanted to see what people thought on this.

He seemed pretty filthy about that period at St Kilda and almost to say if they had chosen the right coach the group was capable of a whole lot more. Would of been tough competiting with Essendon and Brisbane in hindsight however.
 
Nostradumbass said:
Watched the repeat with Loewe last night. I thought it was a decent episode. Never knew about the relative being in hospital story. Agree with what another poster said, he should have probed him more about Alves.
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I've heard the Alves view - he has no animosity towards any of the players for whatever role they played in his demise. The crew running the Saints in '97 believed that Stan's failure to shift Shanahan of Jarman cost them the flag. Re watch the tape and there are a few 50/50 calls and the Saints are in it up until the last 5, re: Jarman - I don't think he had any alternatives given the state of the game. Stan effectively started '98 with a noose around his neck and if anything expectations of the elusive flag were heightened as they led the comp until about Round 16, when the wheels literally fell off, they won only one more game limped into the finals, lost narrowly to the Swans in week 1 under the old system and then got pantsed by the Demons in the 2nd week for a straight sets exit.

The hierarchy wanted blood, 1 premiership in VFL/AFL history a golden age of players, Harvey, Burke, Everitt, Loewe, etc, etc and here they were burning premiership opportunities through poor coaching. When all you want is success and you believe that you have the best players and for two seasons in a row, the flag is one by a team that finishes outside the top 4 and is not considered anywhere near the best team in it, (but coached by a genius - more of that later), scapegoats must be found. And in Stan they had found there man. Stan instituted Leading Teams in the AFL, it was cutting edge.....it was also used to cut his throat. During the 360 degree feedback session, the players gave Stan some feedback about what he needed to do to improve - as everyone does. This was effectively used by the board as a means to terminate Stan through having "lost" the players. The hierarchy thinking that he was outdated and the club needed a fresher face up with the latest trends, not long out of the game and able to get the best out of the "golden generation". You know how that went.....so after turfing whispy, they throw a truckload of cash at the genius retired coach who took the promised premiership away from them.
 
western royboy said:
I've heard the Alves view - he has no animosity towards any of the players for whatever role they played in his demise. The crew running the Saints in '97 believed that Stan's failure to shift Shanahan of Jarman cost them the flag. Re watch the tape and there are a few 50/50 calls and the Saints are in it up until the last 5, re: Jarman - I don't think he had any alternatives given the state of the game. Stan effectively started '98 with a noose around his neck and if anything expectations of the elusive flag were heightened as they led the comp until about Round 16, when the wheels literally fell off, they won only one more game limped into the finals, lost narrowly to the Swans in week 1 under the old system and then got pantsed by the Demons in the 2nd week for a straight sets exit.

The hierarchy wanted blood, 1 premiership in VFL/AFL history a golden age of players, Harvey, Burke, Everitt, Loewe, etc, etc and here they were burning premiership opportunities through poor coaching. When all you want is success and you believe that you have the best players and for two seasons in a row, the flag is one by a team that finishes outside the top 4 and is not considered anywhere near the best team in it, (but coached by a genius - more of that later), scapegoats must be found. And in Stan they had found there man. Stan instituted Leading Teams in the AFL, it was cutting edge.....it was also used to cut his throat. During the 360 degree feedback session, the players gave Stan some feedback about what he needed to do to improve - as everyone does. This was effectively used by the board as a means to terminate Stan through having "lost" the players. The hierarchy thinking that he was outdated and the club needed a fresher face up with the latest trends, not long out of the game and able to get the best out of the "golden generation". You know how that went.....so after turfing whispy, they throw a truckload of cash at the genius retired coach who took the promised premiership away from them.
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Excellent post. I didn't know that Alves used leading teams back then. Interesting stuff.
 
Bell Ringer said:
That website is trash.

Has KB playing 3 different games totals.
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Bullshit. It's a great site. There are gaps in some of the old VFL stats.

Everyone knows KB played 403 games. In those particular "Career Totals" leaders tables you do see fewer than that
(e.g. Most Disposal Ever: Bartlett - 9151 disposals, 402 games, avg 22.76)

That's because there is one game from Bartlett's career where the stats are unknown: Rd 11, 1975 vs St Kilda
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1975/141519750616.html


Bell Ringer said:
So they didn't count his disposals in 1 of his games, his behinds in 5 of his games, but his goals in all of his games.

And the website doesn't make a note of this on the page.

Not quite his "Career Totals and Averages" then is it?
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Sorry. I didn't see this follow up post of yours.

Could you be any more entitled and spoilt?

Until someone uncovers those missing stats, then yes, that is KB's career disposals total: 9151 recorded from 402 games

They actually printed the lower games total in order to show the gap in record-keeping, but you complain about it. :D A lazier method would've been not to bother showing you the games total in that table - just give the total disposals and the average - then you would've been none the wiser.

Please go ahead and find more comprehensive data base of the old VFL statistics than the AFL Tables site.
 
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western royboy said:
I've heard the Alves view - he has no animosity towards any of the players for whatever role they played in his demise. The crew running the Saints in '97 believed that Stan's failure to shift Shanahan of Jarman cost them the flag. Re watch the tape and there are a few 50/50 calls and the Saints are in it up until the last 5, re: Jarman - I don't think he had any alternatives given the state of the game. Stan effectively started '98 with a noose around his neck and if anything expectations of the elusive flag were heightened as they led the comp until about Round 16, when the wheels literally fell off, they won only one more game limped into the finals, lost narrowly to the Swans in week 1 under the old system and then got pantsed by the Demons in the 2nd week for a straight sets exit.

The hierarchy wanted blood, 1 premiership in VFL/AFL history a golden age of players, Harvey, Burke, Everitt, Loewe, etc, etc and here they were burning premiership opportunities through poor coaching. When all you want is success and you believe that you have the best players and for two seasons in a row, the flag is one by a team that finishes outside the top 4 and is not considered anywhere near the best team in it, (but coached by a genius - more of that later), scapegoats must be found. And in Stan they had found there man. Stan instituted Leading Teams in the AFL, it was cutting edge.....it was also used to cut his throat. During the 360 degree feedback session, the players gave Stan some feedback about what he needed to do to improve - as everyone does. This was effectively used by the board as a means to terminate Stan through having "lost" the players. The hierarchy thinking that he was outdated and the club needed a fresher face up with the latest trends, not long out of the game and able to get the best out of the "golden generation". You know how that went.....so after turfing whispy, they throw a truckload of cash at the genius retired coach who took the promised premiership away from them.
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I always thought Stan Alves was a good coach who extracted the utmost from the players he had, but his teams tended to be predictable and play the same way - which is not such a bad thing in and of itself, but when things go awry (as they did late in the '97 GF) then Alves probably wasn't the most analytically-sharpest of coaches. I thought he had other really good qualities - he gave his players plenty of trust, which gave them confidence. Some ordinary footballers played really well under Alves.

The Jarman/Shanahan inaction was probably as much the fault of his coaching setup in 1997 and the lack of direct input from the people around him. That's been one of the great areas of improvement in the AFL over the past 20 years. Alves would probably be a great coach in this day and age with a team of people advising him, extra sets of eyes and someone directly responsible for the backline - someone who could make the change themselves when Jarman got ahold of Shanahan. Why leave these decisions to just one person? Crazy… These days, teams would be prepared in advance for Jarman at full forward. They'd go through all the contingencies and plan for such things.

The 1997 premiership was blown wide open when Carey injured his shoulder in Round 1. St Kilda finished on top (with a 15-7 record) but they weren't the most talented of teams. They had some absolute plonkers out there on Grand Final day. Adelaide's team was FAR more talented, but many of their good players flew under the radar - unknown quantities and under-hyped by the Victorian media.

I think the Crows from 1997 to 1998 were the most underrated team of all time. They got under everyone's guard. They had been an underachieving rabble from 1994-96. 1997 was Blight's first year as Adelaide's coach. Nobody really saw them coming. Many of their best players were still in the early years of their career. Victorians didn't really know much about Andrew McLeod, Simon Goodwin, Tyson Edwards, Kane Johnson, Peter Vardy, etc. They finished both H&A seasons with an ordinary 13-9 record, but they really should've been in the Top 2 with a 16-6 record. Tellingly, they had the best percentage in 1997 and 1998, despite finishing 4th and 5th.

They ambushed the Saints in Grand Final day in 1997. Alves never had a chance. His team had injuries to their ruckmen and some major weaknesses. Blight shuffled his talented team around and exposed them. The Saints actually played a great first half of footy, but the Crows were always going come over the top of them. They were the fitter, better team.

Knowing what we know now, would you allow there likes of Andrew McLeod, Simon Goodwin, Nigel Smart and Peter Caven to repeatedly launch attacks off the half back and not clamp down on it? Blight was a great coach - a great thinker - always ahead of the game. That doesn't make Alves a bad coach (as was shown by St Kilda's subsequent slide after they sacked him.)

The Saints overrated themselves after that '97 Grand Final appearance. Everyone overrated them. I remember the media blew a ton of smoke up their arse, but it was all based on their top tier talent - not the 11th-22nd ranked players in the team. Have a look through the list of players at Watson's disposal in 1999: Harvey, Burke, Loewe, Everitt, Wakelin, Wakelin, Hudghton, Thompson, Peckett, Jones, a young Barry Hall and a very young Lenny Hayes. Seems pretty good, huh? But look through the rest of the list. Just a lot of average and mediocre players who never really kicked on.
 
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Modified Dog said:
The 1997 premiership was blown wide open when Carey injured his shoulder in Round 1. St Kilda finished on top (with a 15-7 record) but they weren't the most talented of teams...
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They had some very ordinary players playing on grand final day and i think in the end their depth got found out. They also had some distractions days before the game with continued speculation in the media about weather Everitt would or wouldn't play and Winmars dad passing away, it really played into the crows hands nicely.

The crows going back to back is very underated when discussing great teams of the last 25 years. When Hawthorn do it this season it will be made a very big deal but people also forget the crows had their injuries to deal with as well.
 

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Rod Stroker said:
Monky on next week. They're going to need a bigger chair
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JUBJUB said:
Well according to todays paper Ricky Nixon is shopping around Ablett Sr for an interview for $50,000
Yeah,good luck with that Ricky :rolleyes:
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Seems like a bit of a low figure TBH. I reckon a proper, lengthy, no-holds-barred interview with Ablett Snr. could command six figures.

I'd jump at the chance at that price if I were Fox Footy. Make it an hour special, advertise the hell out of it, tease a few juicy nuggets, and you'll easily make the figure back in ratings and exposure.
 
Damon_3388 said:
Seems like a bit of a low figure TBH. I reckon a proper, lengthy, no-holds-barred interview with Ablett Snr. could command six figures.

I'd jump at the chance at that price if I were Fox Footy. Make it an hour special, advertise the hell out of it, tease a few juicy nuggets, and you'll easily make the figure back in ratings and exposure.
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In all honesty it would be a massive risk that you may not get anything that could make it to air. Some of the stuff that came from teammates at Geelong made the term "vague" seem obsolete. I tend to be of the opinion that if Gary Sr had something to say, we would have heard it by now.
 
Odd but on the pre-game shiz tonight they said Alec Epis was on next week before showing a grab. The banner on 360 during the week said Monkhorst though.
 
western royboy said:
I've heard the Alves view - he has no animosity towards any of the players for whatever role they played in his demise. The crew running the Saints in '97 believed that Stan's failure to shift Shanahan of Jarman cost them the flag. Re watch the tape and there are a few 50/50 calls and the Saints are in it up until the last 5, re: Jarman - I don't think he had any alternatives given the state of the game. Stan effectively started '98 with a noose around his neck and if anything expectations of the elusive flag were heightened as they led the comp until about Round 16, when the wheels literally fell off, they won only one more game limped into the finals, lost narrowly to the Swans in week 1 under the old system and then got pantsed by the Demons in the 2nd week for a straight sets exit.

The hierarchy wanted blood, 1 premiership in VFL/AFL history a golden age of players, Harvey, Burke, Everitt, Loewe, etc, etc and here they were burning premiership opportunities through poor coaching. When all you want is success and you believe that you have the best players and for two seasons in a row, the flag is one by a team that finishes outside the top 4 and is not considered anywhere near the best team in it, (but coached by a genius - more of that later), scapegoats must be found. And in Stan they had found there man. Stan instituted Leading Teams in the AFL, it was cutting edge.....it was also used to cut his throat. During the 360 degree feedback session, the players gave Stan some feedback about what he needed to do to improve - as everyone does. This was effectively used by the board as a means to terminate Stan through having "lost" the players. The hierarchy thinking that he was outdated and the club needed a fresher face up with the latest trends, not long out of the game and able to get the best out of the "golden generation". You know how that went.....so after turfing whispy, they throw a truckload of cash at the genius retired coach who took the promised premiership away from them.
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I've read the Stan Alves book, and it gives an honest re-count of the times. He accepts he made mistakes etc, but from what he says the culture at St Kilda at the time was terrible. He was constantly battling with the board, or more accurately just a couple of the power brokers on the board, to get things done.

It's a really good read actually.
 
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