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Our Next Genuine All Rounder - M Marsh
- Thread starter The Falcon Strike
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Yeah this.
Was a very good underage bowler. Caused my former team all sorts of problems with bat and ball.
I think people forget how good a bowler Watson was before he got his 4th round of stress fractures in 2003. Bowled serious heat and moved it no problems at all. He has completely remodelled his action these days and is nowhere near the bowler he once was.
He was 20 when he did this http://www.cricinfo.com/australia/engine/match/357820.html and already had a couple of tons to his name as well.
If injury didn't intervene, he really could have been unbelievable.
HBF
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Saw him play footy at the U18's a couple of years ago, and thought he went ok on that particular day. Must say I was surprised when I heard he had chosen cricket over footy. Didn't realise he was such a talent in the Summer game.
I've heard the wraps on him with the bat for years, but had no idea he was a gun bowler as well.
Almost worries me a little to be honest - we know how injury prone a lot of quicks are.
Almost worries me a little to be honest - we know how injury prone a lot of quicks are.
Shaun Marsh was a very average junior cricketer until he got to about 15-16, where i think the weight of coaching and practice started to help him. He played a year up but he wasn't much chop. Nothing like someone like Martyo who was an absolute gun even as a junior.
Geoff Marsh was well known that he had to X amount of balls from a machine on a weekly basis, i think he basically forced his sons to do the same.
Well most wouldn't have seen him actually bowl like that. He had a few ODIs but that is always hard to judge a bowler. By the time he made his Test debut, all we got to see was the gun barrel straight bowler.
ben_cats_fan
Club Legend
That's simply not true.
I played at Willetton in the next age bracket up from Shaun and won the batting average a couple of times for my team with a very ordinary average generally in the 20's (we were a poor side). I remember being particularly embarrassed at the presentation nights because they always did my age group after Shaun's age group and Shaun would inevitably win his age group with an average well in excess of 100 (making my 20 odd look pretty bloody poor!).
So that would explain how he broke the Darlot Cup (1st XI school cricket) batting aggregate record as a 14 year old
(now held by Mitch BTW)
kane249
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So that would explain how he broke the Darlot Cup (1st XI school cricket) batting aggregate record as a 14 year old
Wasn't the Darlot cup, but I remember a 15 year old Shaun tearing apart our school attack on the way to a rapid fire 100
lol @ this thread. If he was a NSWelshman this board would be up in arms.
Let's wait til he's bowled more than 4 overs at a professional level, in something more substantial than a T20D.
Let's wait til he's bowled more than 4 overs at a professional level, in something more substantial than a T20D.
kane249
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If he was a NSWelshman he'd be playing in the team by now
But I do agree people are getting a little carried away with him, let's not rush things with him just yet and give the lad a bit more time before we mark him as the next saviour.
The Falcon Strike
Hall of Famer
- Thread starter
- #40
If he was a NSWelshman he'd be playing in the team by now
But I do agree people are getting a little carried away with him, let's not rush things with him just yet and give the lad a bit more time before we mark him as the next saviour.
nah - the lid is off - i'm annointing him now!!!
Don't want an all-rounder - most are rubbish. You have to earn your spot as either a batsman or bowler - hardly anyone has been good enough in History to be test-class at both (check Sobers' bowling record someday - avg 34, 1 5-for, 0 10-fors - but he was the best batsman in the world for most of his career).
None of Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee or Imran were good enough batsmen to hold their place on batting alone. (When Imran couldn't bowl much late in his career, he became a test-class bat and was then worth his spot as a bat, not a bowler - much like Keith Miller's career).
Since WW2, I struggle to think of a player who held his spot for a considerable period where they were test-class in two disciplines - Gilchrist is probably the only one (he wasn't a test-class keeper at the start of his career, but he quickly became one). Maybe Kallis, for a period before he did his back. Vettori now - maybe.
If you pick a guy who is a 'handy' bat and a 'handy' bowler, you get a liability. They might get a couple of tests where it clicks, but overall they don't pull their weight - eg Flintoff. Usually you wind up with a second-change bowler and a no. 7 bat,
Watson is holding his place because he has now become a test-class batsman - his bowling is a handy bonus. Cam White could go the same way (although his bowling may never even reach the 'handy' level).
Marsh will be a batsman. Pick him when he is a test-class batsman.
None of Kapil Dev, Botham, Hadlee or Imran were good enough batsmen to hold their place on batting alone. (When Imran couldn't bowl much late in his career, he became a test-class bat and was then worth his spot as a bat, not a bowler - much like Keith Miller's career).
Since WW2, I struggle to think of a player who held his spot for a considerable period where they were test-class in two disciplines - Gilchrist is probably the only one (he wasn't a test-class keeper at the start of his career, but he quickly became one). Maybe Kallis, for a period before he did his back. Vettori now - maybe.
If you pick a guy who is a 'handy' bat and a 'handy' bowler, you get a liability. They might get a couple of tests where it clicks, but overall they don't pull their weight - eg Flintoff. Usually you wind up with a second-change bowler and a no. 7 bat,
Watson is holding his place because he has now become a test-class batsman - his bowling is a handy bonus. Cam White could go the same way (although his bowling may never even reach the 'handy' level).
Marsh will be a batsman. Pick him when he is a test-class batsman.
Kallis, Sobers and Khan would all have held their positions in the Test sides of their nations in either discipline during most of their careers. Quite a few other allrounders have been Test quality in both disciplines at some point.
Kallis could never have held his spot as a bowler, the problem the Saffers had for a while there was that they actually had too many all-rounders. I think I recall their side at one point featuring Brian McMillan, Kallis, Klusener and Pollock. With Klusener batting #9, which is just stupid. Klusener was never test class in either discipline and I don't believe McMillan was good enough to hold down a Top 6 spot as a batsman.
Sobers was good enough to hold his place as a bowler, he just didn't need to. Remember he debuted as a bowler and batted #9 early in his test career, also note that he bowled fast, chinamen and left arm orthodox - he was the games greatest all-rounder. He probably would have averaged 60+ with the bat too if he didn't throw his wicket away so often chasing quick declarations.
Freddy was never good enough to hold his place as a batsman, but he was definitely good enough as a bowler, absolutely no question.
Vettori and possibly Bravo are the only current players that would get a game with their home nation with either discipline. Watson has at times been good enough at both, but eventually he had to sacrifice his bowling to stay fit. His batting has always been test class.
Sobers was good enough to hold his place as a bowler, he just didn't need to. Remember he debuted as a bowler and batted #9 early in his test career, also note that he bowled fast, chinamen and left arm orthodox - he was the games greatest all-rounder. He probably would have averaged 60+ with the bat too if he didn't throw his wicket away so often chasing quick declarations.
Freddy was never good enough to hold his place as a batsman, but he was definitely good enough as a bowler, absolutely no question.
Vettori and possibly Bravo are the only current players that would get a game with their home nation with either discipline. Watson has at times been good enough at both, but eventually he had to sacrifice his bowling to stay fit. His batting has always been test class.
The Falcon Strike
Hall of Famer
- Thread starter
- #44
I'd say his technique has alwaus been test class, not necessarily his batting though.
Sobers was NOT a test-class bowler - yes, he was originally tried primarily as a bowler, unfortunately he did not develop as hoped. He was just another of those many blokes tried in Test cricket and found not good enough. Fortunately, he could bat.
His strike rate was 91 - that's not good even for a spinner (his WI contemporary Lance Gibbs had a strike rate of 87, was more economical and had a better average). But Sobers was also a fast-medium bowler - where you expect a strike rate in the 50-60s (at worst). For example, Wes Hall (contemporary) had a strike rate of 54 and an average of 26 - Sobers' average was 34.
Sobers was the best batsman in the world (he is seriously in the argument for the second-best of all time), he was a great, great fielder - but at best he was a 3rd-string bowler who would not have had a long career if he was just a bowler.
We have done the Flintoff arguments to death over the past year or so - awesome-looking bowler, but his results do not back up the image. Without his batting, he would have been in and out of the side - more out than in.
His strike rate was 91 - that's not good even for a spinner (his WI contemporary Lance Gibbs had a strike rate of 87, was more economical and had a better average). But Sobers was also a fast-medium bowler - where you expect a strike rate in the 50-60s (at worst). For example, Wes Hall (contemporary) had a strike rate of 54 and an average of 26 - Sobers' average was 34.
Sobers was the best batsman in the world (he is seriously in the argument for the second-best of all time), he was a great, great fielder - but at best he was a 3rd-string bowler who would not have had a long career if he was just a bowler.
We have done the Flintoff arguments to death over the past year or so - awesome-looking bowler, but his results do not back up the image. Without his batting, he would have been in and out of the side - more out than in.
The Falcon Strike
Hall of Famer
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- #46
Like almost all on here - i never saw sobers bowl, so wouldn't have a clue - but to say he isn't a test quality bowler by comparing him against a champion like Wes Hall is little unfair.
It's like comparing our current bowlers to Glenn McGrath.
There has been a number of Test Bowlers who have had similar/worse records than sobers. (Just thnking of a few average, not brilliant bowlers)
Sobers - 235 @ 34
T May - 75 @ 34
Zaheer Khan - 220 @ 34
P De Freitas - 135 @33.5
He wouldn't have been a world beater - but he wouldn't have been shamed if he was just a bowler. Being able to compete reasonably at Test level in a discipline is different to being in both the best 4 bowlers and best 6 batsmen in a country.
As an all-rounder - i think you need to be able to compete at test level in your weaker discipline - not necessarily be the elite in the country.
I doubt any cricketer has been in the elite 4 & 6 of a country. Perhaps Vettori now in a very poor cricket country. But that speaks more about the quality of the team then the player.
Keith Miller?
The Falcon Strike
Hall of Famer
- Thread starter
- #48
Averaged 37 with the bat?
Wasn't around at the time - but with the ilk he played with - you'd think their might be 6 better batsmen
He averaged 48 with the bat in first class/
Bill O'Reilly for one thought that Miller should give up bowling as he had real batting talent. It is really unknown what effect opening the bowling would have had on his batting, but it is almost undeniable that there was one.
The Falcon Strike
Hall of Famer
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- #50
Their may have been a couple - but if that is the definition of an all-rounder - it would be a pretty shallow club.
However - surely we have to use test stats - that is performances at the elite level. And we can't work on shoulda's and coulda's!
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