List Mgmt. Recruiting and leadership void

[gringo2011]

Agree, we have built an exceptional 8th - 14th team. Very competitive in that bracket. Sort of like South Africa. Can look a million bucks playing Sri Lanka, West Indies, Pakistan and weak as p1ss playing Australia, England and India.

It is hard to know whether Saints problems lie in recruitment or development. I mean we have had a bunch of top 10 picks since 2013 and are yet to get an A grader. Is that poor recruiting a la McCartin over Petracca (although this may also be a case for poor development as Paddy heads toward being in the McGovern class) or poor development a la Clark or Billings?

Melbourne couldn't develop players for years but drafted better players and started to progress. I think development is lots of different aspects too. Some guys are star quality and they'll be stars in any side. Others need nurturing and develop better as the 23 guy running around protected by older guys. Part of that is picking the right guys while you're down. Horne Francis has that kind of confident man child vibe.

You would be confident he'd develop anywhere. Petracca had a self confidence like that. Unfortunately our nice guy drafting policy probably brought in more of the type that needed coddling but we didn't really have enough older core to coddle them.

Some is skills based, some is setting programs etc. Most of it is doing skills and drills which has changed recently but for years wasn't much different at most clubs. Now guys like Bevo and McCray train very specific drills for very specific scenarios.

 

[lewdogs]

There is also a lot of guys like Battle, Marshall, Long, Ross, Hill etc that have gone backwards then got back to how they were. Guys like Butler and Snags have gone the other way. King looks poorly developed etc.

Sinclair has been a slow but steady progress and at 27 has hit absolute peak form. Crouch is back to being a gun mid etc.

To me the list isn't so bad with lots of pieces brought in to make us competitive now but we haven't been able to make any serious progress despite that.

I still feel like when you look at the way sides progress you usually get a rise in player output and that leads to confidence and consistency, we probably should be further ahead accordingly.

If we are underperforming half way through next season I think we just have to make a call on Ratts because there are some limitations due to not having heaps of players under 23 where your real growth is coming from. Probably need to start climbing soon or it's not happening.

I guess it's all semantics but I'd say King is developing beautifully.

 

[gringo2011]

I guess it's all semantics but I'd say King is developing beautifully.

He's a blue chip prospect but I think the way he doesn't get used on a lead and his kicking technique hold him back from being a much more advanced player. He looks unhappy when playing even. All that pints to frustration.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I’d be asking Robbie Gray

9

Robbie Gray

Age

36

Ht

183cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.9

5star

K

9.8

4star

HB

10.1

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.4

5star

D

13.3

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

7.3

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.6

4star

D

10.4

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.4

5star

what his plans are post footy.

It its coaching then I’d ask if a year as an onfield coach is of interest.

His footy IQ is off the charts & could be handy in organising our dysfunctional forward line and offering another much needed senior voice.

Not to mention mentoring Snags in that small marking forward role.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[St Kilda Death]

Agree, we have built an exceptional 8th - 14th team. Very competitive in that bracket. Sort of like South Africa. Can look a million bucks playing Sri Lanka, West Indies, Pakistan and weak as p1ss playing Australia, England and India.

It is hard to know whether Saints problems lie in recruitment or development. I mean we have had a bunch of top 10 picks since 2013 and are yet to get an A grader. Is that poor recruiting a la McCartin over Petracca (although this may also be a case for poor development as Paddy heads toward being in the McGovern class) or poor development a la Clark or Billings?

Not sure you agree with me at all.
Not sure if you read the OP.

But to your post:
I don’t think Billings and Clark have been poorly developed.
Clark has had injury setbacks.
Billings is a good player, just living in the shadow of a superstar, but that’s something many saints fans just need to move on from.

I would like to see Clark and some of our other players in better physical conditioning.
That is maybe a recent problem, although that guy was sacked mid season if I recall, so hopefully that’s something else that turns around.

 

[lewdogs]

He's a blue chip prospect but I think the way he doesn't get used on a lead and his kicking technique hold him back from being a much more advanced player. He looks unhappy when playing even. All that pints to frustration.

Stats wise he'd be tracking as well as any young forward of the last decade wouldn't he?

 

[Ads734]

If your talking about players leaving from those 3 clubs, I don’t think we’ve ever had that problem have we?

No more so the issues around player development and player success only occurs when you have a good development program, good development and good coaches. Just sending prioroty picks and extra picks won't solve the underlying problem. Ie Carlton/Melbourne

 

[Ads734]

Not sure if you have missed my point, that all these teams have recruited well, the difference being all those I listed, the teams above us on the ladder, have a better base of established players who have been there prior to 2014.
If there was poor recruiting/development/culture prior, it’s been corrected since 2014.

Also to your post,
It certainly helps the dogs when they are gifted JUH and Darcy,
Collingwood the daicos boys.
Sydney Heeney, mills and Blakey…

Looks like we finally got our own gifts in Owens and Windhager which is great, although missing out on McKenzie this year and none of them were ever rated top 5 picks like those listed above.

I don’t think Cats are recruiting genius either.
Geelong just happens to be where Dangerfield, Ablett and jez Cameron wanted to live. Can’t believe it’s such a destination personally.

No I actually agree with a lots of what your saying and I agree with all the statement about those teams recuiritng but I refer to their startagies before those players were brought in.

My point was actually, I think teams have a niche in recruiting and we had ours and then we shifted from it and that has cooked our list imo.

 

[Ads734]

I don't agree, we blew plenty of drafts with poor talent identification. If we'd taken Bont over Billings, he wouldn't have been a worse player, we just weren't great at picking high end talent. Development was shithouse as well but we were always pretty good at finding GOPs. The difference between us and the Dogs is that they are really good at spotting guys who are in that star class and helping bring it out.

Part of it is development for sure. Listening to JUH talking about Bevo and how he encourages players to go for high marks and have a snap and how he really encourages the natural instincts of the players. He also trains players in tight so that they can move the ball around quickly in games obviously train to get free kicks.

I think the "nice boy" recruiting policy was a huge impediment, taking McCartin over Petracca over the straightness of his bed linen would be one of the most comical decisions ever.

King looks like our best first round pick in 20 years and our academy guys from last year look as good a haul as we've had in years. All have a bit of X factor. I heard on SEN someone saying that academy kids tend to stand out over their peers because they have an extra couple of years in the system and gives them a real leg up. It's a real shame we don't get McKenzie for that reason.

Anyway, hopefully it's turned around now. I wish we had some better development staff who helped bring out the best in what we have but I'll take better talent identification even.

Gringo, you have literally contradicted yourself by talking about our 'nice boy' recruiting policy. There a thousand different personality traits that work together that define someone other then being nice or not. Its a false assertion.

We would never have taken Bont if we had stuck to that 'policy' Regardless the nice boy recruiting policy is a myth. The AFL isn't split into nice guys and not nice guys. GAJ was a 'nice guy'.

 

[gringo2011]

Gringo, you have literally contradicted yourself by talking about our 'nice boy' recruiting policy. There a thousand different personality traits that work together that define someone other then being nice or not. Its a false assertion.

We would never have taken Bont if we had stuck to that 'policy' Regardless the nice boy recruiting policy is a myth. The AFL isn't split into nice guys and not nice guys. GAJ was a 'nice guy'.

I used to get to the club a lot back when we were recruiting guys like mc Cartin, DMac etc. They were very sweet natured and we definitely seem to have a very quiet and introverted group still. If it wasn't a direct policy it certainly seems to have been accidentally done.

Somone said that we didn't pick players if their rooms were messy or their beds unmade. I know you can't take anything you hear as fact but I would think that "niceness" has certainly been something that we put on top of a list of traits to look for.

 

[gringo2011]

Stats wise he'd be tracking as well as any young forward of the last decade wouldn't he?

He's tracking along well but why not get the absolute best out of him? I'd say he gets much more of the ball directed through him than most his age and being a pretty much solo target skews that a bit too.

We need to demand the best standards of everyone across the board, not do the near enough, good enough thing.

 

[Ricmel]

Not sure you agree with me at all.
Not sure if you read the OP.

Correct. It was sarcasm. Which we are told time and again does not translate well to the written word but still we attempt it.

 

[gringo2011]

Not sure you agree with me at all.
Not sure if you read the OP.

But to your post:
I don’t think Billings and Clark have been poorly developed.
Clark has had injury setbacks.
Billings is a good player, just living in the shadow of a superstar, but that’s something many saints fans just need to move on from.

I would like to see Clark and some of our other players in better physical conditioning.
That is maybe a recent problem, although that guy was sacked mid season if I recall, so hopefully that’s something else that turns around.

I think Billings was poorly handled, maybe not developed. He kind of came to the wrong club at the wrong time. He was forced to take on more of a role that didn't suit his strengths and his confidence took a hit. A lot of guys like Billings, Dunstan and Acres went backwards under Richo who taught them the work ethic over everything else mantra.

Billings is probably a guy who if at the Hawks becomes an outside running class player who's skills and confidence grow.

Clark I think just suffered from St Kilda being down and getting hyped and given the adulation and love of a player who'd done a lot more hard work to earn it. I think that environment doesn't push guys that are prone to coasting along as much as going to a club where you have to fight for every opportunity does.

 

[Klaatu]

Stats wise he'd be tracking as well as any young forward of the last decade wouldn't he?

Has had around 90 shots registered going around 58%, if he improve that to 70% he would kick near on 70 - 80 goals that would equate to another 3-4 wins.

 

[Ads734]

I used to get to the club a lot back when we were recruiting guys like mc Cartin, DMac etc. They were very sweet natured and we definitely seem to have a very quiet and introverted group still. If it wasn't a direct policy it certainly seems to have been accidentally done.

Somone said that we didn't pick players if their rooms were messy or their beds unmade. I know you can't take anything you hear as fact but I would think that "niceness" has certainly been something that we put on top of a list of traits to look for.

Yes it probably is as it competitiveness, skill, athleticism, being a role player a good team mate, showing flair and growth among many other things.

 

[Ads734]

I think Billings was poorly handled, maybe not developed. He kind of came to the wrong club at the wrong time. He was forced to take on more of a role that didn't suit his strengths and his confidence took a hit. A lot of guys like Billings, Dunstan and Acres went backwards under Richo who taught them the work ethic over everything else mantra.

Billings is probably a guy who if at the Hawks becomes an outside running class player who's skills and confidence grow.

Clark I think just suffered from St Kilda being down and getting hyped and given the adulation and love of a player who'd done a lot more hard work to earn it. I think that environment doesn't push guys that are prone to coasting along as much as going to a club where you have to fight for every opportunity does.

Clark suffered from nothing other then being injury prone atm

 

[lewdogs]

Clark suffered from nothing other then being injury prone atm

Coff and Clark were tracking pretty well before injuries. Would love to see them both get a good run at it next year, including a full pre-season

 

[St Kilda Death]

No I actually agree with a lots of what your saying and I agree with all the statement about those teams recuiritng but I refer to their startagies before those players were brought in.

My point was actually, I think teams have a niche in recruiting and we had ours and then we shifted from it and that has cooked our list imo.

My opinion is our list is not cooked.
Our list is building well, but we are 2-5 years behind the ball compared to teams in contention.
If we keep building as we have been we will be on course.

Our list WAS cooked, and it got cooked when we were having on field success.
04-12 once we established a base of stars in Roo, Lenny, Dal, BJ, Chips, Joey, Kos, Ball- we continued to top up old GOPs around them and failed to secure any good youth.
We stopped building for the future and tread water while we were in finals contention.
Once we lost ball, Bj, dal etc.
We were cooked. It’s been a road back since.

 

[gringo2011]

Clark suffered from nothing other then being injury prone atm

He's got heaps of potential but he's not young and I don't think he's ever stamped himself yet. He's played good games but I feel like he's got potential to go either way still. Injury gives him excuses but not an out.

He's going to have to fight for his spot next year as kids come in and others push for a best 22 spot. The draft class of 2017 already have a pile of stars and high profile players. Time is getting away from Clark, Coff, Higgins and Paton. Plenty of talent there but none have come on as well as expected for various reasons.

 

[Ads734]

My opinion is our list is not cooked.
Our list is building well, but we are 2-5 years behind the ball compared to teams in contention.
If we keep building as we have been we will be on course.

Our list WAS cooked, and it got cooked when we were having on field success.
04-12 once we established a base of stars in Roo, Lenny, Dal, BJ, Chips, Joey, Kos, Ball- we continued to top up old GOPs around them and failed to secure any good youth.
We stopped building for the future and tread water while we were in finals contention.
Once we lost ball, Bj, dal etc.
We were cooked. It’s been a road back since.

I think the issue with our list is that our older group is not talented enough to lift us to compete but also not bad enough to bottom out.

 

[MordySaint]

My opinion is our list is not cooked.
Our list is building well, but we are 2-5 years behind the ball compared to teams in contention.
If we keep building as we have been we will be on course.

Our list WAS cooked, and it got cooked when we were having on field success.
04-12 once we established a base of stars in Roo, Lenny, Dal, BJ, Chips, Joey, Kos, Ball- we continued to top up old GOPs around them and failed to secure any good youth.
We stopped building for the future and tread water while we were in finals contention.
Once we lost ball, Bj, dal etc.
We were cooked. It’s been a road back since.

Don't agree, you are saying our list was cooked at those times

2016 we finished 9th with 12 wins

AFL Tables - 2016 Season Scores

afltables.com

2017 we finished 11th with 11 wins

AFL Tables - 2017 Season Scores

afltables.com

You could argue that 2016-17 was better than 2021-22

 

[Klaatu]

He's got heaps of potential but he's not young and I don't think he's ever stamped himself yet. He's played good games but I feel like he's got potential to go either way still. Injury gives him excuses but not an out.

He's going to have to fight for his spot next year as kids come in and others push for a best 22 spot. The draft class of 2017 already have a pile of stars and high profile players. Time is getting away from Clark, Coff, Higgins and Paton. Plenty of talent there but none have come on as well as expected for various reasons.

I think people judge Paton to harshly, he essentially a shut down backman & if you look at who he plays on they rarely kick a bag on him how many did Cameron get on last Friday 0 he kicked his 1 on Webster.

Clark needs to get himself fit his running capacity isn't great if he can do that coupled with his courage he should take the next step, he needs to demand his spot in the MF.

Higgo very similar needs to build his tank & get more front and centre at contests.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Don't agree, you are saying our list was cooked at those times

2016 we finished 9th with 12 wins

AFL Tables - 2016 Season Scores

afltables.com

2017 we finished 11th with 11 wins

AFL Tables - 2017 Season Scores

afltables.com

You could argue that 2016-17 was better than 2021-22

Dead cat bounce when we started to get some good youth in Seb, Billings, Gresh…

Difference being, and this has been my whole point:
16/17 the team was carried by
Roo, Chips, Joey, Dempster, Gilbert 30+
stuv and armo 28ish.

Our senior contingent now is
Hannebery
Ryder
hill

Replace those 3 with Roo, Joey and Stuv…


Now we are a far younger side as a best 22.
More room to keep growing.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I used to get to the club a lot back when we were recruiting guys like mc Cartin, DMac etc. They were very sweet natured and we definitely seem to have a very quiet and introverted group still. If it wasn't a direct policy it certainly seems to have been accidentally done.

Somone said that we didn't pick players if their rooms were messy or their beds unmade. I know you can't take anything you hear as fact but I would think that "niceness" has certainly been something that we put on top of a list of traits to look for.

Stuff it - I want Figjam!

 

[gringo2011]

I think people judge Paton to harshly, he essentially a shut down backman & if you look at who he plays on they rarely kick a bag on him how many did Cameron get on last Friday 0 he kicked his 1 on Webster.

Clark needs to get himself fit his running capacity isn't great if he can do that coupled with his courage he should take the next step, he needs to demand his spot in the MF.

Higgo very similar needs to build his tank & get more front and centre at contests.

Paton is the most accomplished of any of them funny enough just a lower ceiling. Higgins is a gun small forward and confidence player. He's not being used well and trying to turn him into something he's not isn't really helping his confidence.

Clark and Coffiled really need to start motoring because if you haven't cemented a best 22 spot in your mid 20s not many keep getting chances. If our recruiting has picked up we will being wanting to fill those spots soon.