Religion

[Stamos]

God is dead.
No other way of explaining tonight.

 

[blue gunslinger]

ramadan
go without then go crazy
makes sense

 

[BluStreak]

ODN, I am amazed at the level of discussion that this thread has engendered overall there is some serious discussion where views are articulated well and respectfully. This is not usual from past experience when trying to discuss religion in our society.
I am fortunate in that I work within the public service and within my team I have someone from every major religion. Within our team we talk about life events and how they would affect us from our different points of view.
When asked if I am religious I proudly say that I am, my religion is the Carlton Football Club which always gets a smile. I believe in the Christian faith and for me following Jesus Christ is my ideal but it is also very personal as my walk with Christ is mine alone and so it is an individual faith. I go to church each Sunday but church is a gathering of like minded individuals with leaders who are held responsible for their teaching. I was not raised within an established church system but was made to go to Sunday school (non denominational) until I was 11 when I was given the choice by my parents to continue or not. Subsequently I choose not to. Later in life I came to follow Christ through choice and I have not regretted that choice. Why did I make that choice? Well I am not really sure. There were a number of things happening in my life but none that stand out as the reason, there were friends who were followers and friends who were not. I was in a service (one of many I had been to) when the question about where I want Jesus to be part of my life or not, I responded without conscious intent. Tried to hide my response (raised arm), thought I got away with it as it had not been acknowledged and the question was re-asked, I raised my arm again. There have been times since that I have questioned my faith but I have always been able to go back to my basic foundations of faith when that happens. I don't tell people that they have too believe but someone asks why I believe then I will try my best to explain that.

 

[zeeCFC]

ramadan
go without then go crazy
makes sense

Perhaps you've had a bad experience with a not so clever Muslim guns.

Ramadan is all about mental strength and worship through restraint, not just food and acts of strength.

 

[zeeCFC]

I'm a practicing Muslim and have been active in and lead many youth Muslim groups through School/Uni and in my community. The trick is teaching Muslims in Australia how to be good Muslims in Australia within Islamic guidelines set by the right people - not guidelines ordained by the govt.

Religion to the majority non - Salafi/Wahabi/Extremist Muslims is a personal thing and certainly not a missionary religion like what is shown on Today Tonight etc. Don't get caught in the jingoism, history is cyclical and we've seen it all with other groups etc. You all know me though and we can coexist, so without getting into internet debates where motives are unclear I'll leave it there. Good day!

 

[Silvagnis]

God is dead.

 

[Silvagnis]

Funny video. Love House's humour.

However, let's not let this go down the track of every SRP thread on religion where atheists stop people from posting by telling them how stupid they are. It serves no purpose.

I have some Ricky Gervais tweets lined up.

 

[Faz 2000]

Great topic, and one I routinely ponder and get all worked up about.

I am an out-and-out atheist, dyed in the wool. Through rational thought and arguments I cannot fully understand or accept people concluding to truly "believe" in any of the major organised religions. I wholeheartedly accept every individual's RIGHT to believe what they like, but I can't reconcile it in my head. People talk about big-T "Truth", etc, but I just cannot come at the factual, historical basis for any of the belief systems. That's setting aside whether they're "good" for people, or why they exist - which is plainly obvious to me. But are they based on accurate, historical facts (eg. Was Jesus the son of God who rose from the dead)? My view is that, no, they absolutely, categorically are not "true".

For added fun, I'm married to the daughter of a Pentacostal Christian Pastor, so you can imagine how thrilled her family were when she brought me home to dinner (took them 12-18 months into our relationship before they would acknowledge my existence). My wife won't talk to me about religion, and due to her rough/unsatisfying/downright damaging upbringing, she's not an active member of the church any more either - though still a believer. But I have great convos with my brother-in-law. Just as I'm fascinated by how intelligent, successful, nice, fun, good people can believe in the Bible, I think he's blown away that someone who believes in no God/gods at all can still be moral, considerate and decent. It's good stuff.

My general outlook is what I guess now gets labelled "humanism". I think we're all people, with rights, needs, wants, etc. We're also hugely imperfect, and everyone's sort of doing the best they can to figure out what's what. To me saying "God did it" for everything you (or we collectively) can't explain is a disappointing and unsatisfactory answer. The earth's not flat, God doesn't make thunder, your cousin's cancer was not caused by/cured by God. People naturally want a "why" to things and to be comforted that there's a plan, but often there just isn't one.

Doesn't mean it won't be a great day to be alive tomorrow.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

My general outlook is what I guess now gets labelled "humanism". I think we're all people, with rights, needs, wants, etc. We're also hugely imperfect, and everyone's sort of doing the best they can to figure out what's what. To me saying "God did it" for everything you (or we collectively) can't explain is a disappointing and unsatisfactory answer. The earth's not flat, God doesn't make thunder, your cousin's cancer was not caused by/cured by God. People naturally want a "why" to things and to be comforted that there's a plan, but often there just isn't one.

I'm not one for the 'it's god's will' brigade. When bad things happen, it is said that God does not intervene in such things. It seems if there is a god, they have allowed us free will and created a world where things just happen without any intervention whatsoever.

 

[Faz 2000]

It seems if there is a god, they have allowed us free will and created a world where things just happen without any intervention whatsoever.

If that were the case, God is not really the omnipotent being he supposedly is, and takes no hands-on interest in what happens... so I start wondering "just what is God?" then, and is there any point in having a relationship with him/her/it. My take, anyway.

If he CAN do anything, but doesn't - he's not benevolent (existence of evil, etc).
If you truly have free will - and God doesn't know what you're going to do - he's not omniscient.
Etc.

The classic all-powerful, all-knowing, perfectly-good being is a logical impossibility, essentially, based on the evidence of the world.

Old stuff I know, but it's so simple and so "clear" to me. I can't buy into it (religion) even if I wanted to.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If that were the case, God is not really the omnipotent being he supposedly is, and takes no hands-on interest in what happens... so I start wondering "just what is God?" then, and is there any point in having a relationship with him/her/it. My take, anyway.

If he CAN do anything, but doesn't - he's not benevolent (existence of evil, etc).
If you truly have free will - and God doesn't know what you're going to do - he's not omniscient.
Etc.

The classic all-powerful, all-knowing, perfectly-good being is a logical impossibility, essentially, based on the evidence of the world.

Old stuff I know, but it's so simple and so "clear" to me. I can't buy into it (religion) even if I wanted to.

Bear in mind, that wasn't my god I am describing but the god spoken off when people want to attribute all things, good and bad, that happen to God.

I don't equate us having free will with God not knowing what we are going to do. If there is a God, they have given us the tools to help us choose. We have brain capable of rational thought, have a conscience, and generally have a sense of right and wrong. I don't see anybody foretelling what we WILL do, but being aware of a myriad of things we MIGHT do. Kind of a fork in the road scenario. If God already knows absolutely what we will do at a given moment, then our whole life is mapped out for us, and we are unable to change it, then he already knows who will repent, who will not and given we are supposedly his creations, he is responsible for what we do.

 

[Omega Blue]

Wow what a good thread, I myself am a devout Christian (not catholic) I'm also an engineer and as such spent a lot of time with so call learned people and the interesting thing I find is these people who keep telling me that I have been brain washed are the same people themselves who have been brainwashed by a secular education system.
One thing I do know is every person on this earth has a god conscious meaning they believe in god whether they choose themselves as god (which is the way the western world is head due to our incessant greed and narcissism) or believe in God ( higher spiritual being)

 

[Dramoth]

I'm not one for the 'it's god's will' brigade. When bad things happen, it is said that God does not intervene in such things. It seems if there is a god, they have allowed us free will and created a world where things just happen without any intervention whatsoever.

Thats the funny thing. When bad s**t happens, God doesnt intervene in such things, but when good s**t happens, thats God's hand reaching down to touch you.

And as for the misunderstanding of muslims... everyone is being influenced by the media and the government with their propagandist stance towards tarring all muslims with the same brush as the extremists. I know a lot of muslims and as far as I am aware, they are all just wanting to get on with their lives, raise their families and have a good time. They arent about to go running out and blow up the local post office.

On the other hand, I have met a number of what appeared to be really nice christians... until you get to know them and find out that it is their sect or the fires of hell will consume you for all eternity... and some of them would even contemplate sending you to hell personally if you disagree with their views on god.

These same good god fearing christians were of the opinion that Gandhi was currently residing in hell because he wasnt a god fearing christian like them.

 

[Omega Blue]

Not sure what this means Omega.
I really don't feel I choose to view myself as a god. Wouldn't mind an elaboration on your claim.

Nothing to do with religion per se but I can't help but find it offensive when, let's say survivors of an air crash announce that God was looking over them and saved them, when others were killed.
The use (over-use) of the term miracle, also grates at me just a little.

its a complicated statement Harks, I'm not claiming that people think themselves as a god as such, because none of us are that stupid to believe that we are a god. I stating that everyone at some point in there life is overwhelmed with the feeling that there is something bigger out there something reaching out to us, in the western world we tend to blanket these feelings with distraction where it be entertainment or work. What I mean by some people viewing themselves as god I mean they replace god with themselves instead of serving god they serve themselves which in our culture is the norm hell I do it too.
On your second point harks, this is where I believe a lot of people go wrong. we have to remember we are put here on this earth to serve god not the other way round, god doesn't view death in the same way we do, in gods eyes death is no big deal because the soul is eternal.
the term miracle in my eyes isn't used enough, to me a miracle is a statistically improbable event that happens, we also must remember that god doesn't break his own rules of physics.

i'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have whether it be religious or scientific, i'm not here to beat anyone into a conversion just want to show that not all Christians are freaks and that science and religion can and do co exists together.

 

[Omega Blue]

Thats the funny thing. When bad s**t happens, God doesnt intervene in such things, but when good s**t happens, thats God's hand reaching down to touch you.

And as for the misunderstanding of muslims... everyone is being influenced by the media and the government with their propagandist stance towards tarring all muslims with the same brush as the extremists. I know a lot of muslims and as far as I am aware, they are all just wanting to get on with their lives, raise their families and have a good time. They arent about to go running out and blow up the local post office.

On the other hand, I have met a number of what appeared to be really nice christians... until you get to know them and find out that it is their sect or the fires of hell will consume you for all eternity... and some of them would even contemplate sending you to hell personally if you disagree with their views on god.

These same good god fearing christians were of the opinion that Gandhi was currently residing in hell because he wasnt a god fearing christian like them.

I believe god is the cause of both, in biblical times when the Israelites turned from god god would punish them so they would come back to him, we are like children when we do wrong we need to be scolded, we as a human race do our greatest growing when times are tough, the term character building comes to mind.
I think a lot of Christians forget that they are human and therefore sinful too and usually in an attempt to deny there own sin they try to point out anothers.... jesus himself said "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" basically saying don't judge other people.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

I'm a lapsed C of E, which really isn't a religion at all, simply HenryVIII sacking the Pope to marry Anne Boleyn.

Went to a Co-Ed Catholic Boarding School when I was 16, and none of that stuck.

Love the Gothic artwork, churches - flying buttresses and all

Keep a 16th Century woodcut of the Book of Job, framed and hanging on the wall to remind how insane it all is.

Don't think anyone made this world, past, present or future, but will tolerate peoples beliefs. If you've got faith in something, good luck to ya'.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I've been saying for years that it won't be long before the church sides with Homosexuality.



It's coming.............

Just goes to show how flexible Gods representatives are in order to maintain the following.
What would the church do should we all become devil-worshipers? Now there would be a dilemma yet I know which way they'd go. Follow the money.

I welcome relaxation in church groups as well Harks, also let's not make the Catholic church representative of all religion. Plenty of other religions are more tolerant and have been that way for a lot longer. I do get the point that beliefs based on the bible should not be flexible, although these beliefs in the first place failed to take into account the notion of a forgiving god.

However, surely you are not suggesting that religion would switch sides to whatever the majority believed in, in order to keep money coming in? I reckon Catholics marginalised and murdered for their beliefs in Palestine might object. Same goes for any religion where they are really pushing crap up hill to get any sort of foothold but don't compromise their beliefs.

If we can have scientific beliefs challenged and updated, there is probably no reason for religious beliefs not to be challenged and updated. They are after all, only interpreting words in a book that may not have to be taken literally. Sure, it becomes like Chinese Whispers and come a hypothetical judgment day, the almighty might tell them they all have it wrong and aren't worthy, but most Christian religions believe in the effort, and the forgiveness for effort of the God they believe in.

If religion beliefs are found to be false, then I wonder if people in the end are just worshipping the human spirit and the positivity of life.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Don't think anyone made this world, past, present or future, but will tolerate peoples beliefs. If you've got faith in something, good luck to ya'.

I don't mind this at all, although can still not fathom all life springing forth from a ball of exploding gas that happened to be lying around for infinity without a creation date of its own. This is where philosophy and eternal energy academics start talking and I start tuning out.

My take is that we are here for a short time, and there is good and bad in unequal amounts for each person. Some people need thrills to sustain them during life, some people need security, some people need love (or whatever chemical reaction you subscribe to), some people need isolation, some need nature, some need copious amounts of artificial or naturally occurring products, some need to believe there is a further purpose. Each to their own.

Most objection to a religion comes from other religions. I do believe that objection to religion from non-religious persons comes partly from a) evil done in the name of religion b) evil done behind the scenes by religious people and importantly c) a desire to disprove these beliefs because the person having made their choice, can not afford for them to be true.

Let's face it, not being religious is the line of least resistance. You don't get up early on Sundays, don't need to pray or give thanks to a deity you can not see and are unsure of the existence of, don't have to endure rolling eyes and behind the back whispers about being a god botherer. Atheists have it easy.

While considering myself more spiritual than religious because my general view of life and how I treat others runs fairly well in line with religion, without me believing in the bible, I am intrigued by religious faith and far from being offended by it, quite respect many people who have it, especially if they don't preach and treat everybody the same. I am sometimes envious of those who are comfortable enough to have 'sorted their s**t out' in life. Good for them.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Interpretations? We pick and chose what we wish to interpret to suit what exactly? Community changes? If so why are there any boundaries?
The Catholic Church is a business and not a charity. It's a very, very big business and as in any business money is king.

We can change whatever we want to change but to be true to a religion, who should be determining those changes? Man or God?
I want to hear what God has to say on the matter not a cult-elected representative.

The overriding principle of a belief in God, is a belief in a just god. These bible tales that talk about God kicking ass and taking names for sins, might just be reflective of that particular event, not all future similar events. This is why I have a tough time reconciling the bible, mightily impressive publication notwithstanding.

You are showing some scarring IMO Harks. The fundamental principles of the God they believe in are still the same, so they would NEVER switch to a different god because that is where the money is. You can be sus on the Vatican and the money in the Catholic church but there are thousands upon thousands of church communities in different denominations who go hand to mouth and rely on volunteer workers to keep afloat. They don't do it for the money.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I don't agree with this line of thought ODN.

It reminds me of how we used to call out women without children, as selfish. Now tell me exactly how that works out?
I call it the other way as when you're having a child you're clearly doing it for yourself. You can't possibly be doing it for something/someone that doesn't even exist.

Not sure how this ties in with what I said. I see scope for all things Harks. Women without children in some cases choose not to have them so they can enjoy life unimpeded, while some recognise they might not be a good parent or might be bringing the child into a bad situation. It's not as though population is a problem for us, but yes ... if it was and every woman decided not to have a child, then the human race will die out. Not that I think those who choose to have children do it to populate the planet. It is just part of our biology, part of the human condition, an innate survival instinct. So we have breeders and we have non-breeders, each responding to their own inbuilt instincts. Some have babies because they are cute and they want someone to love them etc, but they don't generate those instincts from nothing because they are selfish. It is inbuilt in them. They can no more control that instinct than a homosexual can control their instincts. I am loathe to pass judgment on either side of this argument. We simply lack the understanding to do so.

My life would probably be easier should I have confidence that my soul will rest eternally.
I mean, I could just buy into that but then I'd be lying to myself and that just wouldn't work for me.

Didn't you say earlier that a lot of religious people would struggle with their beliefs if they took a look at it? I believe this is the very essence of religion. Those that 'know' through some epiphany have it easy. Those that want to believe really struggle at times and try to find things to strengthen that belief. That's the leap of faith and because I have been unable to make that leap, I imagine it's extremely hard to do and these people are resilient and committed all because the result at the end of their lives makes more sense to them.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Yes, I'm very suspect on the church and any group that can hold such power. Let me repeat that: POWER. Money, power, greed self-serving etc etc

Agree entirely, let's face it, my lapsed lot was excommunicated as a nation not once but twice by the Vatican, so I'm going to Catholic Hell, then again so is St Mary McKillop........excommunicated as well. Sainthood has become convenient lately what with all the other dramas of the past 30 years.

Been to the Vatican, looks more like an explosion of wealth than reverence in an omnipresent being.......nice paintings but.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Nice words but show me the money.
We don't condone the actions of a murderer or a rapist yet strangely find a way not to bring into the picture, one can that change the course of those actions yet just settles on becoming a by-stander. Just? Pfffft.

Yes, I'm very suspect on the church and any group that can hold such power. Let me repeat that: POWER. Money, power, greed self-serving etc etc

Depends what you believe. I don't believe any God intervenes good or bad. God would be saving every cancer patient, every would-be-murder victim, every potential plane crash victim, collateral victims of war, etc etc etc. Everybody would live until they were 100, the world would run out of resources and fall apart in no time. The fact that religious people give credit to God for surviving something is neither here nor there. They also give thanks for waking up each morning, for the food on their plates that they worked to pay for and prepared. So what?

You talk about power and greed in church organisations and there is no doubt, this is true. There is also power and greed in every other walk of life. The US might be a religious country in the main, but if they do something suspect, they are not doing it in the name of god, they are doing it in the name of the US such is their patriotism and desire to survive and thrive and atheists and religious people alike stand side by side in this endeavour.

Religions will tell you that the bible talks about evil being in the hearts of men, that will turn you away from god. Rather than think that evil represents religion, it could serve as a stereotype for those looking for it. Not every politician is inherently corrupt but those that are ruin it for the rest. Not every Carlton supporter is arrogant and dismissive, but that is our stereotype. You wouldn't want a sweeping generalisation to be passed about anything you were passionate about.

Your opinions are shaped by your experiences no doubt, but you also have to leave room to be surprised. Tolerance and perspective for the win IMO.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Agree entirely, let's face it, my lapsed lot was excommunicated as a nation not once but twice by the Vatican, so I'm going to Catholic Hell, then again so is St Mary McKillop........excommunicated as well. Sainthood has become convenient lately what with all the other dramas of the past 30 years.

Been to the Vatican, looks more like an explosion of wealth than reverence in an omnipresent being.......nice paintings but.

Catholics make up about 50% of Christianity. People are turning away from the Catholic church in droves because of their archaic beliefs and scandals. There are good Catholics no doubt, but none of the good ones I know can justify the church stance on many issues.

I dislike the notion that Catholics represent religion. The upper echelons of the Catholic church might be rolling in dough but that is not symbolic of religion as a whole.

I also hate having to defend this even though I am not religious myself. I just feel while reflective of opinions, it is a little narrow in perspective.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

I dislike the notion that Catholics represent religion. The upper echelons of the Catholic church might be rolling in dough but that is not symbolic of religion as a whole.

You're either with us or aginst seems to be the edict, and you can't just turn up and join.

Through the couple of years of Catholicism, always thought the Micks were the most biased, ignorant, intolerant, bigoted people of all. Yet for any heresy, murder, what-not, the act of confession gives absolution

Seems to be built on fear and damnation, and to think heaven is made up of those very same people just astounds me.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

You're either with us or aginst seems to be the edict, and you can't just turn up and join.

Through the couple of years of Catholicism, always thought the Micks were the most biased, ignorant, intolerant, bigoted people of all. Yet for any heresy, murder, what-not, the act of confession gives absolution

Seems to be built on fear and damnation, and to think heaven is made up of those very same people just astounds me.

Oh I agree with those sentiments on the Catholic religion specifically. I argued long and hard with my wife and in laws about this stuff. 'We don't believe everything they say but we have faith in god and it's a nice little church with friendly people and don't you just love holy communions and confirmations and all the ceremonial stuff?' My response ... you're not Catholic. They believe this, you don't. They believe that, you don't. You do this so you are sinner and the idea that you can have a get out clause by ignoring every Catholic belief and then confessing it is ridiculous.

I agree 100% with all that and whatever the Catholic damnation version of god is, I want no part of. They probably have a lot of decent people but those who subscribe to a lack of tolerance for others because they believe the bible tells them to do so, are most definitely missing something.

As I said, it is 50% of Christianity. I believe people just stay within a denomination out of fear and because they struggle to find one that matches their own belief system. That sort of thing sends me running for the hills.