Schoenmakers gets to have the final say

[Last Line Hero]

Yep your right - he has played shite for the entire 2012 season and thoroughly deserves the contempt of all supporters

Sorry, allow me to re- phrase. One good game in a match Hawthorn aren't winning by 10 goals and he is actually forced to compete under some pressure.

 

[mick]

Yes... please How about some context... because your comparison of Fletcher in his first season to Shoenmakers now had none.

Are you really that ignorant or does your jealousy of Hawthorn cloud your thinking? You agreed with a post that stated that Fletcher had "come in and done well". I merely pointed out that Fletcher had the shizen belted out of him, that's about all he has in common with Shoey.

Get a grip Hero, you were wrong, I'm sure it isn't the first time and I'm tipping it won't be the last, unless another Hawthorn premiership on Saturday bursts ananeurysm in that Hawthorn obsessed mind of yours.

 

[PenAndPaper]

So you've stated clearly that Shoenmakers provides a lot of good rebound, but we have to disregard the fact he had the 2nd highest amount of clangers of any defender in the AFL? Not to mention the 52 gols he's conceded for the year Shit, by that logic we could argue Tony Lockett was a pretty terrible full- forward if we minus all the goals he kicked.



What's your point? What did that 10 minutes spent reserching prove? Is Shoenmakers a better player than Scarlett is he? You know what, Shoenmakers was better statistically than the All- Australian captain too. How did the selectors miss that? I guess he's better than Glass as well.



So what are you arguing about then? **derp**



We'll forget the fact that blokes like J. Riewoldt, Cloke, Tippett, Hawkins etc are all only 23-25 and Shoenmakers is going have to go head to head with them every year for the next 10 years. It's not like these blokes mauling Shoey are 30 year old veterans, with years of experience and on the way out. Positive signs.



And I can't understand how hard it is for you to grasp that Shoenmakers doesn't have good game- based speed and mobility at all. Noone gives a stuff about how fast he'd be if he was down the park and asked one of his mates to race him over 30 meters. It means literally nothing whatsoever when applied to a real- life AFL situation and when influenced by numerous external variables that take place out on the field. If your purely stating that Ryan Shoenmakers as a human being has demonstrated that he possesses good speed and mobility in at least one situation throughout his lifetime then you are just arguing pathetic semantics. I'll tell you what. If there is a ever a competition to see who can run the fastest between two cones on a basketball court a few times we'll give Shoey a call.



Shoenmakers has had 4 years in a professional AFL system, under the tuteledge of AFL standard coaches and fitness staff and was playing reserves in the premier semi- professional state league in Australia (VFL). Taylor at the same age was recruited directly out of the WAFL, and was more interested in study than football but your arguing Taylor had more of an advantage? Do you actually read what you write?

1. His amount of clangers also includes frees against which he has had a fair few this year. It doesn't reflect his rebounding ability. Like i said he is rebounding just as well from FB on the #1 forward as Scarlett is from a HBF/BP on the #4. I'm not saying he is better than Scarlett i am just revealing why your argument that Scarlett amasses more posessions and rebounds than Schoenmakers when they are basically even in that department.

2. They are developed at 23-25, what im saying is that once Schoenmakers is 23-24 he will be developed as well and fit to play as the KPD.

3. You really don't know how ridiculous you sound when talking about his speed because you have obviously not watched him play enough to realise he actually has a fair bit. Not too mention you can't understand a fundamental concept such as speed not being affected by 'pressure/match situations'. Mental capacity is affected by match situations but your speed/physical attributes are generally not. His speed would be affected by fatigue but he also has quite a tank, so once again your theory of him being immobile and lacking speed is proven WRONG.

4. The WAFL is of a very similar standard to the VFL. Harry Taylor played 3 seasons in the WAFL before being picked up and their coaches and fitness staff are not too much of a step down from AFL level. What I am saying is that his body had already developed to an adequate level when he was 22. He also had the luxury of playing on the #2 forward because of Scarlett. Schoenmakers does not have that luxury.

How many games have you actually seen Schoenmakers play? I'm guessing 4 at most

 

[Pera]

How many games have you actually seen Schoenmakers play? I'm guessing 4 at most

Im actually starting to question just how many Hawthorn games YOU watch.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Im actually starting to question just how many Hawthorn games YOU watch.

Yea basically none mate, im just a reserved seat member who goes to every Melbourne game...

 

[frantelle]

How many games have you actually seen Schoenmakers play? I'm guessing 4 at most

I think the problem is we don't watch the 100pt floggings against minnow sides where his opponent won't kick a goal and he gets 15 uncontested marks chipping the ball around. The games non-hawthorn supporters watch (aka the meaningful ones) he has continued to disappoint.

 

[PenAndPaper]

I think the problem is we don't watch the 100pt floggings against minnow sides where his opponent won't kick a goal and he gets 15 uncontested marks chipping the ball around. The games non-hawthorn supporters watch (aka the meaningful ones) he has continued to disappoint.

Does that take into account the round 17 game against the Pies where he smashed Cloke?

 

[HurlsMeister18]

I remember Dustin Fletcher in his first premiership year, do you?

Sumich smacked him for 7 goals, .

Your talking utter crap.

We played Eagles three times in 93 and Fletcher only played in two of those games.

Fletch missed the game in rd1 where Sumich kicked 7.6 and had 16 kicks and 13 Marks.

Fletch played against him latter in the season in rd16 and kept him to 3.4 from 8 kicks, 1 handball and 4 Marks.

Then he lined up on him in the semi final and kept him to 3.2 from 6 kicks, 1 handball and 5 Marks.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

A lot of Hawthorn supporters would agree with that-I think they are even bigger idiots than you, because they have seen his good games. I think he is a kid with a growing body that hasn't got the support he needs down back like Taylor had, I think he is remarkably resilient given the mismatches he has been subjected to.

I've seen him do some good things, precious few of them involve defending.

I'm no expert, I thought Jason Dunstall was a spud in his first few games, Langford was horrible and it took me too long to admit that Gary Ablett jnr wasn't just a stat farmer getting cheap non damaging possessions. I've got it plenty wrong before, but this time I'm positive, Shoey will be a decent if not very good defender.

You may be right.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Just look at the amount of bitter Geelong supporters in this thread..... says it all really.

Why would Geelong supporters be bitter? About Schoenmakers?

And what does it say? 'It all'? That Schoenmakers is actually very good?

You should probably stick to the Bay if this is all you can come up with.

 

[mick]

I think the problem is we don't watch the 100pt floggings against minnow sides where his opponent won't kick a goal and he gets 15 uncontested marks chipping the ball around. The games non-hawthorn supporters watch (aka the meaningful ones) he has continued to disappoint.

What's your point frantelle? That he struggles against quality opposition but can do alright against lesser lights? Well, I don't see too many supporters disagreeing with you, even Hawthorn ones. I'm not sure that that reflects poorly on him or whether his coach and team mates are to blame. Although if you do watch those 100 points beltings you will see Shoey is capable of top shelf kicking and is actually pretty good over-head when not being muscled out of the contest. To be fair if the only games I saw Shoenmakers play were against Hawkins, Cloke, Riewoldt and on Saturday night the I'd be convinced he was a dud too. He might just be a flat track bully but I think it more likely that he is an underdeveloped KPD who has a lot of improvement in him.

If I only ever saw Cloke against Hawthorn, I'd imagine he'd be worth 1.5 million a year, I reckon it is near on impossible to judge a player unless you watch a fair percentage of his games-good and bad, unless of course you happen to be me and are commenting on Leon Davis in GF's.

 

[mick]

Your talking utter crap.

We played Eagles three times in 93 and Fletcher only played in two of those games.

Fletch missed the game in rd1 where Sumich kicked 7.6 and had 16 kicks and 13 Marks.

Fletch played against him latter in the season in rd16 and kept him to 3.4 from 8 kicks, 1 handball and 4 Marks.

Then he lined up on him in the semi final and kept him to 3.2 from 6 kicks, 1 handball and 5 Marks.

Aah, apologies, I could have sworn Sumich took him to the cleaners, I'll take your word for it, an Essendon fan would remember better than me. Would you concede though that Fletcher was given a pretty torrid introduction in his first year?

Edit: Are you sure you are not talking "utter crap", I've just checked rd 16 and I've got Sumich at 4.3 You are right though I shouldn't have given 7 goals against him in Rd 1, when he didn't play, that was a tad harsh.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Aah, apologies, I could have sworn Sumich took him to the cleaners, I'll take your word for it, an Essendon fan would remember better than me. Would you concede though that Fletcher was given a pretty torrid introduction in his first year?

Torrid introduction, handled himself with aplomb is my recollection; lined up on Gary Ablett snr who was in red-hot form at the time down at KP in one of his first games, and gave an excellent contest all day long.
Hang on we're not really making any kind of comparison between Dustin Fletcher and Schoenmakers are we ?
The Kevin Walsh comparison is a lot more accurate at this stage of his career.

 

[Last Line Hero]

Are you really that ignorant or does your jealousy of Hawthorn cloud your thinking? You agreed with a post that stated that Fletcher had "come in and done well". I merely pointed out that Fletcher had the shizen belted out of him, that's about all he has in common with Shoey.

Get a grip Hero, you were wrong, I'm sure it isn't the first time and I'm tipping it won't be the last, unless another Hawthorn premiership on Saturday bursts ananeurysm in that Hawthorn obsessed mind of yours.

Getting a little edgy are we Mick? Wrong about what superstar? Care to elaborate. If your argument is that I agreed Fletcher was a great defender in his first season 1. Show me where I did and 2. Even with those bags he still had a substantially better rookie year than Shoenmakers did. You compared Fletcher in his first year of AFL to Shoenmakers in his 4th and I pointed out the stupidity in your argument. Compare them both at the same age, by which point Fletcher was regarded as one of, if not the best young KP defender in the AFL (not that you'd need to because Fletcher in his first year, given his responsibilities was still significantly better than Shoenmakers now).

 

[cash]

He is very very lucky that josh gibson has his back in %80 of his contests.

 

[frantelle]

Does that take into account the round 17 game against the Pies where he smashed Cloke?

You mean the out of form Cloke who he subsequently played back into form? The problem going for Shoenmakers is that key forwards typically struggle in finals given the lockdown and contested nature compared to H&A, however he has bucked this trend in that a couple of out of form players have given him a hiding.

TBH no one will remember what happens in H&A apart from a few ppl having an outstanding season, however people will remember what happens in finals and in particular the GF. It'd take an almighty recovery for Schoy to convince the broader footy world he isn't useless if he gets pantsed again

 

[PenAndPaper]

You mean the out of form Cloke who he subsequently played back into form? The problem going for Shoenmakers is that key forwards typically struggle in finals given the lockdown and contested nature compared to H&A, however he has bucked this trend in that a couple of out of form players have given him a hiding.

TBH no one will remember what happens in H&A apart from a few ppl having an outstanding season, however people will remember what happens in finals and in particular the GF. It'd take an almighty recovery for Schoy to convince the broader footy world he isn't useless if he gets pantsed again

Cloke was played into form by Essendon and seriously the guy is a gun. Yet he was able to beat him 1/2 out of the three matches this year. Sure i would like that figure to be better but he is 21 playing KPD undersized. People don't realise that he is the same height as Birchall, could you see Birchall playing on a KPF, I couldn't, yet this kid has to.

 

[mick]

Getting a little edgy are we Mick? Wrong about what superstar? Care to elaborate. If your argument is that I agreed Fletcher was a great defender in his first season 1. Show me where I did and 2. Even with those bags he still had a substantially better rookie year than Shoenmakers did. You compared Fletcher in his first year of AFL to Shoenmakers in his 4th and I pointed out the stupidity in your argument. Compare them both at the same age, by which point Fletcher was regarded as one of, if not the best young KP defender in the AFL (not that you'd need to because Fletcher in his first year, given his responsibilities was still significantly better than Shoenmakers now).

You might be on to something there. I might be a little edgy, my team is in a Grand final this year. Damn, I wish I was cool, calm and collected and could present specious straw-man arguments but it is stressful going in to a GF as favourites, I mean we could have a premiership stolen from us, and I'd have to carry a grudge for years.

Anyhoo, We will all find out if Shoenmakers is a dud or is simply played out of position or still maturing soon enough. I hope your wrong and Shoey turns out alright but even if he is a hack, as long as he is a premiership hack then I'll love him as much as Greg Madigan.


Edit:-

1. Show me where I did

post 391, I might have it wrong but hitting the "like" button in my mind is agreeing with the post.

 

[Last Line Hero]

1. His amount of clangers also includes frees against which he has had a fair few this year. It doesn't reflect his rebounding ability. Like i said he is rebounding just as well from FB on the #1 forward as Scarlett is from a HBF/BP on the #4. I'm not saying he is better than Scarlett i am just revealing why your argument that Scarlett amasses more posessions and rebounds than Schoenmakers when they are basically even in that department.

Care to show me where and when I argued, and I quote; "Scarlett amasses more possessions and rebounds better than Shoenmakers" now (not that I need to)? From memory I stated that the role of Scarlett and Fletcher as key position defenders (which ofcourse they are no longer ) so, when they were younger and through their prime, was to defend the #1 forwards, as well as act as a mechanism for rebound out of defence. This is not Shoenmakers role as a key position defender.

2. They are developed at 23-25, what im saying is that once Schoenmakers is 23-24 he will be developed as well and fit to play as the KPD.

They are always going to have 2-3 years development physically and in terms of experience. So what makes you think Shoenmakers is ever, at any stage over the next deecade, going to make up that difference? Nothinng he has done justifies that statement.

3. You really don't know how ridiculous you sound when talking about his speed because you have obviously not watched him play enough to realise he actually has a fair bit. Not too mention you can't understand a fundamental concept such as speed not being affected by 'pressure/match situations'. Mental capacity is affected by match situations but your speed/physical attributes are generally not. His speed would be affected by fatigue but he also has quite a tank, so once again your theory of him being immobile and lacking speed is proven WRONG.

I'd say Shoenmakers performance in itself is proof enough that I'm not wrong. Once again, you fail to grasp the concept of game- based athleticism. His lack of awareness and poor positioning means he loses opponents, and as good as he was at running fast between two cones as an 18 year old, it doesn't seem to enable him keep pace with aesthetically bigger, slower players on the lead or in contested situations (funny that), hence making him appear slow and immobile.

4. The WAFL is of a very similar standard to the VFL. Harry Taylor played 3 seasons in the WAFL before being picked up and their coaches and fitness staff are not too much of a step down from AFL level. What I am saying is that his body had already developed to an adequate level when he was 22. He also had the luxury of playing on the #2 forward because of Scarlett. Schoenmakers does not have that luxury.

How many games have you actually seen Schoenmakers play? I'm guessing 4 at most

Taylor at 21: 49 games for East Fremantle.
Shoenmakers at 21: 35 games for Hawthorn, 23 for Box Hill + 4 years training in a professional system.

But no, Taylor definetely had a physical advantage at the same age.

Does that take into account the round 17 game against the Pies where he smashed Cloke?

You mean the one where you dominated and were up by 10 goals with 5 minutes to go? [/quote]

 

[Last Line Hero]

post 391, I might have it wrong but hitting the "like" button in my mind is agreeing with the post.

Definitive evidence Nancy Drew.

That 'like' was actually for the "there's defending your players, and then there's covering your ears screaming la la la la I can't hear you" coment. Found that quite amusing. Thought it summed up the thread nicely.

And I am refreshed to hear a Hawthorn fan admit they stole that GF and didn't deserve to win. Glad to hear one of you admit it. Lucky we won two more to make up for it. In the spirit of sprtsmanship, apologies from all us Geelong fans for our club stealing all Hawthorn's limelight since then through the years your club were apparently supposed to become the next great dynasty. Yikes. Our bad.

 

[JoondalupJ]

RYAN Schoenmakers is treading a well-worn, if bumpy path, to a successful football career. Almost 30 years ago, another affable and dedicated tall defender struggled in his league football infancy and was the subject of fan abuse before it began to click for him around the 50-game mark.​

​

Like Kevin Walsh, Schoenmakers suffered the slings and arrows of outraged fans. Even in the early rounds of this year, there were calls for Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson to dump the 21-year-old in whom he had shown such stubborn faith.​

​

​

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/schoenmakers-gets-to-have-the-final-say-20120726-22vf2.html#ixzz21nqOZ7mb​

It also seems some of you trolls bashing Schoenmakers have made the paper. Read the bottom of the article with quotes on Schoenmakers from some of BigFooty's very finest..

I,m fine with Schoenmakers. Its a very hard job he gets every week and he tries all the time. Indiscretion that had a free turned around was a young fellow thinking his team mate has just had his head ripped off "I'm going to show some team spirit, if I don,t maybe I look weak."
Well whatever the coach or anybody else thinks I think good on him.Split second things happen all the time. Schoenmakers opponant was in great form , Schoenmakers is going to be an elite footballer.

And he knows when he's made a blue, but it is not easy for backmen , how would you like to have to stop Buddy from firing the jets when a good pass is shot at him, its damn near impossible , Schoenmakers job is very very hard , he is fine, and I get sick of Hawks rubbishing him too.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Care to show me where and when I argued, and I quote; "Scarlett amasses more possessions and rebounds better than Shoenmakers" now (not that I need to)? From memory I stated that the role of Scarlett and Fletcher as key position defenders (which ofcourse they are no longer ) so, when they were younger and through their prime, was to defend the #1 forwards, as well as act as a mechanism for rebound out of defence. This is not Shoenmakers role as a key position defender.



They are always going to have 2-3 years development physically and in terms of experience. So what makes you think Shoenmakers is ever, at any stage over the next deecade, going to make up that difference? Nothinng he has done justifies that statement.



I'd say Shoenmakers performance in itself is proof enough that I'm not wrong. Once again, you fail to grasp the concept of game- based athleticism. His lack of awareness and poor positioning means he loses opponents, and as good as he was at running fast between two cones as an 18 year old, it doesn't seem to enable him keep pace with aesthetically bigger, slower players on the lead or in contested situations (funny that), hence making him appear slow and immobile.



Taylor at 21: 49 games for East Fremantle.
Shoenmakers at 21: 35 games for Hawthorn, 23 for Box Hill + 4 years training in a professional system.

But no, Taylor definetely had a physical advantage at the same age.



You mean the one where you dominated and were up by 10 goals with 5 minutes to go?

[/quote]You defeat what you defeat, whether its tiddly winks or footy and your 500 goals ahead or 500 behind, if you win the contest one on one, well, you win the contest. And prove you are very good. Simple hey . If you keep getting so involved in little tiny point making arguments you just go back and forward. The Shoe is a bloody good young footballer .
Please don,t bring the likes of Fletcher into this argument he,s a backline general , and for me he,s the best full back I have ever seen, you can sprout all the big names, Fletcher is the best full back ever........

 

[QuietB]

He is very very lucky that josh gibson has his back in %80 of his contests.

Can we agree that Josh Gibson is the best defender in history then given he is doing the work of two men?

 

[Last Line Hero]

Schoenmakers is going to be an elite footballer.

The Shoe is a bloody good young footballer.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Definitive evidence Nancy Drew.

That 'like' was actually for the "there's defending your players, and then there's covering your ears screaming la la la la I can't hear you" coment. Found that quite amusing. Thought it summed up the thread nicely.

And I am refreshed to hear a Hawthorn fan admit they stole that GF and didn't deserve to win. Glad to hear one of you admit it. Lucky we won two more to make up for it. In the spirit of sprtsmanship, apologies from all us Geelong fans for our club stealing all Hawthorn's limelight since then through the years your club were apparently supposed to become the next great dynasty. Yikes. Our bad.

There is no way on this earth that Hawthorn didn,t deserve to win 2008. They pressured Geelong from the outset, they gave them no inch and created a nervous goal shaky uncertain side , thats what happened and blind freddy knows it . Get over it Geelong you were a great team and we have had bad times against you since then , but we spanked your backsides in 2008 GF, and I love it. We win 89 and 08 you win 63, thats two to one Ilove it. Even in 1989 you had to bash kick punch and knee the bravest pack of Hawks and you still got whipped , and you can,t stop bringing up the bullshit , we got the cup 2008, and we gave you a football lesson in how to hold fast when the pressure is on, your guys flaked, LOST THEIR NERVE COULDN,T KICK WHAT A DAY we won because we were better when it counted on that day, AND I LOVE IT.
Of course you got a much over rated load of praise for flogging the Port 3rds the year before , Hawks taught you in 2008 how to go about it later in the next couple of years, and we were only youngsters.
HA HA HA HA I LOVE IT.Get over it , because we will be flaying your bums for a few years to come now , win lose or draw next Saturday , we,re just a better side. Don,t you love it.