Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[Gethelred]

Hmmnn ... interesting this thread will not die a natural death.

In my view Carlton has 3 rolled gold stars - Cripps the tall, Docherty and C Curnow. More in fact than the Club I support, which has just one.

One of the chief differences between the Blues and most successful Clubs is recruitment. Hawthorn and to a lesser extent the Swans have achieved rebuilds of their lists in double quick time. Again on Saturday a large slice of the Swans team wil have graduated from the rookie list.

That also relates to another key difference which is development. Both Hawthorn and Sydney (and now Richmond) are the primo developers of what talent they have on their lists. There is no doubt Carlton have picked up talent, but the question remains about how well it is being developed.

Carlton culture continues (as an outsider) to be imbued with the asterisk against the 1995 Flag.

Your Club is lucky to have Bolton but he needs support if Carlton is to survive let alone be seen as a credible Club again.

Your ability to find players and develop them in house has been nigh on spectacular, it's something we'd want to emulate, as has been your 'rebuild by stealth' for the last two-three years.

I don't disagree with much, beyond the second last sentence in there, if only because it smacks - like a lot in here - of a bit of baiting.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Your ability to find players and develop them in house has been nigh on spectacular, it's something we'd want to emulate, as has been your 'rebuild by stealth' for the last two-three years.

I don't disagree with much, beyond the second last sentence in there, if only because it smacks - like a lot in here - of a bit of baiting.

Not trolling in the 2nd last sentence - tho prolly reflects my long term enmity against your Club in the 70s and 80s.

 

[btdg]

Arguing list demographics is good and all. Nobody can dispute that in a few years time Carlton will have a ton of high draft picks in their prime age. However the flipside of that is that most of their high draft picks aren't performing well at all so far. If I looked at Brisbane's young players they are absolutely destroying their Carlton counterparts both building from a similar position. They are also showing the kind of progression that people expect year on year from a complete rebuild (improving their percentage and being more competitive now).

For perspective Carlton won just 2 games this year which is one of the worst wooden spoon performances in recent history. Essendon with our senior players our suspended still won 3 games and that was in Worsfold's first year of coaching. Bolton has had 3 so far and still has yet to implement a system which shows promise out on the field. Bolton is in the top 10 for worst coaching win rates after 3 seasons of footy which is not something you can brush aside.

Having a vision is great but if you don't develop that vision in the right way with the right pieces it is all for naught.

Brisbane's draft picks are 'destroying' their Carlton counterparts? In what world?

2015 draftees:
high draft picks (top 20) Weitering, Curnow, McKay vs Schache, Hipwood - advantage Carlton
mid-tier picks (21-40) Cuningham vs Keays/Mathieson - advantage Brisbane
late picks (41+) Silvagni vs Skinner - advantage Carlton

2016 draftees
Petrevski-Seton vs McLuggage/Berry - advantage probably Brisbane, mainly due to numbers.
Fisher vs Witherden/Cox - advantage Brisbane due to numbers
Macreadie, Polson, Williamson, Kerr vs Allison - tie (all 4 Carlton players have played, but injuries to Williamson/Macreadie this year make that hard to call a win)

2017 draftees
Dow, O'Brien vs Rayner, Bailey - tie (I think you can make a case either way, but if you rank the players I'd have them exactly in draft order, so a tie)
De Koning vs Zero (advantage Carlton in a weak category)
Schumacher, Garlett vs Wooler, Payne (I don't think any of those player can be considered a win)

I'd maybe have Brisbane slightly ahead on pure draftees. Across that time period Cartlon also traded in Marchbank, Kennedy and Pickett (from teh 2014 draft), which also represents value.

So tell me how exactly Brisbane's draftees have 'destroyed' Carltons? If anything, their advantage is purely based on having more picks (ie; the priority pick they used on Witherden - otherwise Fisher vs Cox is a win for Carlton, etc).

 

[gbatman]

Hmmnn ... interesting this thread will not die a natural death.

In my view Carlton has 3 rolled gold stars - Cripps the tall, Docherty and C Curnow. More in fact than the Club I support, which has just one.

One of the chief differences between the Blues and most successful Clubs is recruitment. Hawthorn and to a lesser extent the Swans have achieved rebuilds of their lists in double quick time. Again on Saturday a large slice of the Swans team wil have graduated from the rookie list.

That also relates to another key difference which is development. Both Hawthorn and Sydney (and now Richmond) are the primo developers of what talent they have on their lists. There is no doubt Carlton have picked up talent, but the question remains about how well it is being developed.

Carlton culture continues (as an outsider) to be imbued with the asterisk against the 1995 Flag.

Your Club is lucky to have Bolton but he needs support if Carlton is to survive let alone be seen as a credible Club again.

You underrate your club, it's got a lot of players I would call stars and is a mature team. Docherty is a star but unfortunately didn't play this year.

Hawthorn and Sydney don't and haven't rebuilt, they have restocked. Aren't replacing nearly every player, aren't starting the process from the bottom of the ladder and they have always had players coming through. Carlton are replacing close to the entire herd. Sydney and Hawthorn etc replace the older and under performing ones every so often. Significant difference. Bolton/SOS came into a place that hadn't bought any livestock for a good while and what they had wasn't much.

Spot on about the culture. That's why so many of the seemingly good senior players have been removed IMO. You can tell by the way they play.

Can't see why there would be an asterisk next to the 95 flag?

Bolton is a good person and the club know that. I think the fact Carlton are losing and sometimes losing badly and haven't sacked the coach is the first sign Carlton have changed. No other coach at Carlton has done so poorly and remained. Thankfully the club is run by realists and not fanatical football fans who can actually identify real problems and resolve them.

Player development stems from having a strong leadership core at the club which determines the club's culture but also drafting players who can be developed. Carlton haven't had that and probably only just have it now, at this point in time they are growing their own leaders and culture from a clean slate. That will take time but it's well under way. Carlton have not just drafted talented players with their picks they have drafted level headed players who will become future leaders.

All mentioned clubs, their good players were nothing special as pure AFL footballers in their first 3 years which is where most of Carlton's prime players are. It's easy to forget. Richmond were garbage with a lot better list than Carlton's for periods under Hardwick.

Not sure why so many expect players to be stars or at least good consistent and key focus AFL players in their first three years. Doesn't work like that. Most of Carlton's young talent, if they were at Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond etc would sit in the reserves for 2-4 years and when the restocking period came they would be introduced into the main herd and everyone would be praising their culture and development and wondering where they came from. Not thrown into the AFL and left to play mostly there and criticised for not being up to it.

The thing is, you don't get to see the talented young players at Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong or Richmond because they are in the reserves until they are ready and good enough to play unlike Carlton's who are in the AFL because they pretty much have to be. So you don't get to see the young players of these sides struggle. When they play they are ready and the play in a good side in ideal conditions, big difference.

You just don't see clubs wipe the list and rebuild through the draft and throw all your key ammunition at that very often. Usually there is a transition stage or teams jump the gun and go the quick fix with a heap of mature players.

There's nothing wrong with how Carlton are developing their players, it's just that they are in the public eye developing and playing pretty stock standard footy that you would expect of players in this age group.

 

[Gethelred]

Not trolling in the 2nd last sentence - tho prolly reflects my long term enmity against your Club in the 70s and 80s.

That's certainly reasonable, but only to an extent.

More, for my point of view if you want me to accept that 2005 wasn't as a result of borderline calls at tribunal permitting Barry Hall/Adam Goodes playing where they probably shouldn't have, or other fraught endeavors like the COLA allowing you and yours to retain talent above and beyond other club's ability to do so contriving the circumstances - during which you would've lost some genuine champions to other clubs as you declined in reasonable form, instead of being able to keep your guns in house - in which you never have to truly bottom out cheapening your 2010-2016 period, you shouldn't cheapen my club's last flag.

Unless all of us agree that a dollar coin equals a dollar coin, there's no point in valuing the thing.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

That's certainly reasonable, but only to an extent.

More, for my point of view if you want me to accept that 2005 wasn't as a result of borderline calls at tribunal permitting Barry Hall/Adam Goodes playing where they probably shouldn't have, or other fraught endeavors like the COLA allowing you and yours to retain talent above and beyond other club's ability to do so contriving the circumstances - during which you would've lost some genuine champions to other clubs as you declined in reasonable form, instead of being able to keep your guns in house - in which you never have to truly bottom out cheapening your 2010-2016 period, you shouldn't cheapen my club's last flag.

Unless all of us agree that a dollar coin equals a dollar coin, there's no point in valuing the thing.

One Club operated within the rules, the other did not.

 

[btdg]

One Club operated within the rules, the other did not.

Your take on the 95 premiership absolutely is trolling though. There is no asterisk against it. Carlton did not break the rules that year at all.

If you are referring to the salary cap breaches, the major penalties given were for a series of offences from 1998-2002.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Your take on the 95 premiership absolutely is trolling though. There is no asterisk against it. Carlton did not break the rules that year at all.

If you are referring to the salary cap breaches, the major penalties given were for a series of offences from 1998-2002.

What they were caught for.

 

[btdg]

What they were caught for.

There's never been any hint or suggestion with any evidence behind it that Carlton were cheating in 95.

You might as well say that the massive and deliberate breaches of the cap that Sydney were caught for invalidate the 2005 flag because it was 'all they were caught for'

 

[jooce8891]

Carlton have a loosers mentality atm.
"we are s**t so the system is broken"
How about you fight your way out of it....

Cant wait for R1 next year with Lynch to kick 10

lol, i betcha lynch will have a negative impact on richmond, calling it now.

 

[Mr.X]

It was tough in 2018, there is a process in place to bring the blues out of this mess.

A few recruits and shrewd drafting will see carlton back in finals in 2021

 

[Gethelred]

I really don't know why you bumped this, other than a desire to troll opp. supporters.

 

[HTPunter]

2016 draftees
Petrevski-Seton vs McLuggage/Berry - advantage probably Brisbane, mainly due to numbers.
.

What do you mean probably? And mainly due to numbers? I think either of McCluggage or Berry are ahead comfortably of SPS right now by themselves - combined it's not even close.

 

[HTPunter]

What they were caught for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFL_salary_cap#Breaches

• In 2001, Carlton were fined $125,150, forfeited their second and third round picks in the 2001 National Draft, and were excluded from the 2002 pre-season draft after it was found that they had failed to disclose payments totaling $239,900 to captain Craig Bradley and incorrectly lodged an additional services agreement document during the 1998 and 1999 seasons.

• In 2002, Carlton were fined an AFL and Australian sporting record $987,500 and forfeited their priority picks in the 2002 National Draft, their first and second round picks in the 2003 and 2004 National Draft and were excluded from the 2003 pre-season draft after an AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totaling $1.37 million between 1998 and 2001; ruckman Matthew Allan was suspended for five matches and fined $10,000 for accepting undisclosed payments from club officials

The more interesting thing is how nearly all clubs broke it in and around the 90s. Some of the best cases were Essendon who cheated the cap in 1993, and Melbourne who had $810k outside of the cap for 4 years and only played finals once in that time.

 

[Gethelred]

What do you mean probably? And mainly due to numbers? I think either of McCluggage or Berry are ahead comfortably of SPS right now by themselves - combined it's not even close.

Do yourself a favor, and see if you can find footage of last year's game against Collingwood, in which SPS won the match pretty much by himself. You had the good players chipping in - or, as was our thing prior to losing Gibbs, all performing outside themselves to compensate for the sheer amount of kids we had playing - but he was hitting clearances from impossible situations, kicking to advantage not just good but amazing passes. For most of that match, we were left in awe, not because of effort but because of 'How the * did he just do that?' That was in his first season, after an injury interupted draft year, without a preseason. He didn't get one leading into this year, either, yet played every match and built on his performances match on match.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually disagree with you that McCluggage and Berry are - between them - better performed to this point, but I'd argue neither won a game off their own bat yet either. The difference wouldn't be so terribly far, IMO.

 

[Gethelred]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFL_salary_cap#Breaches

• In 2001, Carlton were fined $125,150, forfeited their second and third round picks in the 2001 National Draft, and were excluded from the 2002 pre-season draft after it was found that they had failed to disclose payments totaling $239,900 to captain Craig Bradley and incorrectly lodged an additional services agreement document during the 1998 and 1999 seasons.

• In 2002, Carlton were fined an AFL and Australian sporting record $987,500 and forfeited their priority picks in the 2002 National Draft, their first and second round picks in the 2003 and 2004 National Draft and were excluded from the 2003 pre-season draft after an AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totaling $1.37 million between 1998 and 2001; ruckman Matthew Allan was suspended for five matches and fined $10,000 for accepting undisclosed payments from club officials

The more interesting thing is how nearly all clubs broke it in and around the 90s. Some of the best cases were Essendon who cheated the cap in 1993, and Melbourne who had $810k outside of the cap for 4 years and only played finals once in that time.

You forgot the fact that Sydney was the first club ever fined for breeches of the SC, but then I don't think he'd remember that...

 

[TiggyTig]

Has anybody on here heard about Zac Fisher and Lachie Plowman?

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Has anybody on here heard about Zac Fisher and Lachie Plowman?

Still see you've got your head stuck in a tiger's bum whilst delivering this unnecessary bump.

Shitcanning two of Carlton's most respectable and consistent performers does you no favours.

 

[TiggyTig]

Still see you've got your head stuck in a tiger's bum whilst delivering this unnecessary bump.

Shitcanning two of Carlton's most respectable and consistent performers does you no favours.

What did I say? I was merely asking if there was any info on these two players, this is the ‘all things Carlton megathread’ isn’t it?

 

[TeeJay Blue]

What did I say? I was merely asking if there was any info on these two players, this is the ‘all things Carlton megathread’ isn’t it?

Well what on Earth do you mean by asking such a question? They're merely two players that look to stick with the blues for many years to come.

I have no clue with what your specifically asking for in regards to them.

 

[TiggyTig]

Well what on Earth do you mean by asking such a question? They're merely two players that look to stick with us in many years to come.

I have no clue in what your specifically asking for in regards to them.

Ok then, all I’ll say is keep your ears open one of the lads by name and by nature. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Ok then, all I’ll say is keep your ears open one of the lads by name and by nature

Are you suggesting one of them is going to request a trade?

Until there is any confirmation, I'm going to have a hard time believing that. And I'm sure many blues fans would think the same thing.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Has anybody on here heard about Zac Fisher and Lachie Plowman?

I have, I've even seen them play.

 

[HTPunter]

Do yourself a favor, and see if you can find footage of last year's game against Collingwood, in which SPS won the match pretty much by himself. You had the good players chipping in - or, as was our thing prior to losing Gibbs, all performing outside themselves to compensate for the sheer amount of kids we had playing - but he was hitting clearances from impossible situations, kicking to advantage not just good but amazing passes. For most of that match, we were left in awe, not because of effort but because of 'How the **** did he just do that?' That was in his first season, after an injury interupted draft year, without a preseason. He didn't get one leading into this year, either, yet played every match and built on his performances match on match.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually disagree with you that McCluggage and Berry are - between them - better performed to this point, but I'd argue neither won a game off their own bat yet either. The difference wouldn't be so terribly far, IMO.

They might not have won 1 solitary game off their own boot but they win their positions every week. I`m not a great believer in coaches votes being some miracle judgement but when SPS got 1 votr while Clug got 20 and Berry 11, as well as averaging decidedly less goals and disposals and assists and clearances and inside 50s than them, I have a hard time accepting the gap isn't close because SPS was best on 18 months ago.

 

[HTPunter]

Has anybody on here heard about Zac Fisher and Lachie Plowman?

If you haven't why do you bother ever discussing Carltons future? I can get maybe a defender flying under the radar but if you don't know who Zac Fisher is do yourself a favour and just discuss Richmond on the Richmond board.