No Oppo Supporters The ASADA Thread... from a Tiger perspective

[nut]

lol, I'm actually pro-process/governance/due diligence and all that guff people here hate . I have and always was a fan of a full and independent investigation, and I'm still pissed the AFL muddied the waters to prevent that.

On whos in the right today, I go back to what I said on the appeal. The only reason I saw any logic in it was that EFC owed everything to the players to do all they could to support them in fighting the charges and/or minimizing the impact of sanctions. The club betrayed the players by playing russian roulette with a reckless supplements program.

Now however the players have apparently said enough, they want to finish this one way or the other. Right or wrong (in terms of could they win an appeal), EFC has done the right thing by bowing to the wishes of the players. For Hird to ignore this, and fight on for his own rep is selfish and stupid.

At the end of the day the case was only going to buy time, ASADA would re-interview afterwards. Does this mean a new injunction? Does this mean the reply on the SCN's now gets pushed out to 2015? If the players want it ended, and Hird adds another year to this process, he is basically ignoring and spitting on their wishes. Yes he can argue he has a right to justice, but the players have a much bigger right to demand it the way they want.

Do you still think Hird had absolutely nothing to do with it????

 

[_RT_]

My question is if a player gets suspended will he walk? He declared he would.

Something tells me he might head north to the Suns, with Harvey taking over at Essendon.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Hmm, no. You actually couldn't be more wrong. For all your pro-process/governance/due diligence that you're spouting maybe you should apply that to your own actions and not draw assumptions about things people say using whatever preconceived bias you have, seems rather hypocritical.

You just posted above that you don't care, you think they are guilty, and you want the players to cop two years regardless

What part of that is taking into consideration any hearing, weighing of the evidence, and determination of an appropriate verdict?

 

[Groupie_]

That would be good, Harvey is a shitruck

 

[TigerImposter]

My question is if a player gets suspended will he walk? He declared he would.

He won't walk he wants to be paid out and politely moved on
We all know its sacked

 

[Ned_Flanders]

We're the players aware of the substances by names that were being injected into them?
If they didn't then they all are counselled and Inserviced on what to do and who to contact if any doubts arise on their first day by the AFL
There was also player neglect on protocol and procedure by assuming and trusting medicos and staff
Yes all of the above is insignificant to the mass incompetence and lack of duty of care by Hird and medicos
Why did some players refuse to partake in the program and others proceeded with it?
I agree with everything you and DrMike have pretty well said ,but IMO there was also player neglect to AFL protocol unless the AfL are hiding something which as you stated they muddied the waters in many ways

On what the players knew, it all comes down to one product - Thymosin beta. Apparently the form listed thymosin, but didn't specify if it was alpha or beta.

For that item, unless asada have something that shows the players knew it was B, I'm inclined to back the "they were screwed" argument. JFyi I'm in a similar industry to this, and people who are using these chemicals and so on often don't 100% get the difference in variations (we often have to explain to them). If chemists struggle, I'm not surprised a player didn't blink when told its kosher.

My issue with the players is more about agreeing to the volume of injections, and the off site arrangements. I suspect this is what set of warning bells for some. While I don't think this deserves a two year ban, I won't have an issue if they cop weeks for it.

As I posted last year, I think the afl needs to take over all procurement and approval of supplements for clubs, and anything outside it's supply is banned. Also only medical staff to administer. Too much grey otherwise, and too much duty to bear on the players shoulders

 

[Calcium Man]

He won't walk he wants to be paid out and politely moved on
We all know its sacked

I was talking about Bomber Thompson

also

 

[1980GFVideo]

Gold Coast should be putting a line through Bombers name now.

Im moving up there next year so I want them strong and watchable and dont want them to have a coach that would prefer to be at his old club.

Does anyone think there will be others that might consider moving to a new club with recent developments or do you think if they havent decided by now then they want to remain at the club. Would love us to snare on of them to make up for Blumfield,Underwood and Eustice.

 

[TigerImposter]

I was talking about Bomber Thompson

also

Sorry I'm reading too much on Hird and assumed he was the person in debate

 

[TigerImposter]

On what the players knew, it all comes down to one product - Thymosin beta. Apparently the form listed thymosin, but didn't specify if it was alpha or beta.

For that item, unless asada have something that shows the players knew it was B, I'm inclined to back the "they were screwed" argument. JFyi I'm in a similar industry to this, and people who are using these chemicals and so on often don't 100% get the difference in variations (we often have to explain to them). If chemists struggle, I'm not surprised a player didn't blink when told its kosher.

My issue with the players is more about agreeing to the volume of injections, and the off site arrangements. I suspect this is what set of warning bells for some. While I don't think this deserves a two year ban, I won't have an issue if they cop weeks for it.

As I posted last year, I think the afl needs to take over all procurement and approval of supplements for clubs, and anything outside it's supply is banned. Also only medical staff to administer. Too much grey otherwise, and too much duty to bear on the players shoulders

Yes this is all good ,but some players refused the whole program. Why????? Was it health issues or risks ????or did they ask the hard question? If one knew then opinion and information would have got around to all??????
It's a massive grey area and the players are sadly under the umbrella of the Essendon FC and if the club is found guilty then they will regretfully have to pay the consequences
A hard stance must be taken to set the tone to all sports people and clubs in Australia to set a zero tolerance otherwise we waste years in court arguing over trivial legal loopholes which delays the outcome and ruins the competition in that time
I really have not enjoyed the last two years listening to the bickering and lack of progress with this issue. It has brought the game to an all time trough .

 

[THE THIN MAN]

James Hird facing the axe at Thursday board meeting

James Hird's decision to defy his club and potentially prolong his players' anti-doping battle in appealing last month's Federal Court decision looks to have ended his coaching career at Essendon.

Bombers chairman Paul Little is understood to have lost patience with his recalcitrant coach and was scheduled to hold an emergency board meeting via phone hook-up early on Thursday to rule on Hird's decision to act against the advice of his club.

Little and his chief executive Xavier Campbell are understood to have repeatedly urged the coach to abandon his legal battle but on Wednesday night Hird had refused insisting he was acting upon a matter of principle. Until this week Hird had claimed his legal action was in the interests of his players.

Hird told Channel Seven on Wednesday that he hoped to remain as coach. But on Wednesday night he remained defiant


Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/afl...t-thursday-board-meeting-20141001-10ot99.html

 

[DrMike]

You just posted above that you don't care, you think they are guilty, and you want the players to cop two years regardless

What part of that is taking into consideration any hearing, weighing of the evidence, and determination of an appropriate verdict?

Please show me one sentence where I have said they are guilty. Not some made up interpretation by you or words carefully cut together to form that statement, clear succinct wording where I have stated that Essendon players are guilty of taking performance enhancing drugs.

Should be easy as it's not like you've formed some assumption about me without weighing up the evidence, right? I mean after having such a critical opinion of other people for doing the same thing wouldn't it be rather embarrassing if you did it, lol that would be funny, but don't worry I'm sure I said it somewhere!

 

[Cevap_Roll]

Picture says a thousand words

 

[_Wang_]

What's with the kool aid in this thread fmd

 

[Tigerbob]

On what the players knew, it all comes down to one product - Thymosin beta. Apparently the form listed thymosin, but didn't specify if it was alpha or beta.

For that item, unless asada have something that shows the players knew it was B, I'm inclined to back the "they were screwed" argument. JFyi I'm in a similar industry to this, and people who are using these chemicals and so on often don't 100% get the difference in variations (we often have to explain to them). If chemists struggle, I'm not surprised a player didn't blink when told its kosher.

My issue with the players is more about agreeing to the volume of injections, and the off site arrangements. I suspect this is what set of warning bells for some. While I don't think this deserves a two year ban, I won't have an issue if they cop weeks for it.

As I posted last year, I think the afl needs to take over all procurement and approval of supplements for clubs, and anything outside it's supply is banned. Also only medical staff to administer. Too much grey otherwise, and too much duty to bear on the players shoulders

Sorry mate but the combination of the amount of injections, off site injections, signed confidentiality agreements, suspicion without raising outside concern and damn right stupidity, I'm all for the players to be thrown the book at.

Would you, allow anyone to inject you that many times and at different off sites by different people without going, wait a minute something ain't right?

The players are getting off far too lightly. They benefited the most from the cheating. One player won a Brownlow. Most made dramatic improvements in both body and performances.

If you can get 18 months for an accident like Ahmed Saad. Then you can get a big whack with what these players did.

In my opinion. They are cheats.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Please show me one sentence where I have said they are guilty. Not some made up interpretation by you or words carefully cut together to form that statement, clear succinct wording where I have stated that Essendon players are guilty of taking performance enhancing drugs.

Should be easy as it's not like you've formed some assumption about me without weighing up the evidence, right? I mean after having such a critical opinion of other people for doing the same thing wouldn't it be rather embarrassing if you did it, lol that would be funny, but don't worry I'm sure I said it somewhere!

How about this?


. I don't think the players are as innocent as people are making out, and they are 100% responsible for the substances that go into their body. A cheat is a cheat, and they can get out of the game I want to enjoy without questioning whether players are performing a certain way due to an unfair advantage


You posted at the start that Efc don't deserve leniency via backdating because of Cronulla, but now you just think no one deserves leniency (I assume from this sentence. Why hide behind saying it's about timelines, when if you hold that view you should be punished to the limit regardless?

 

[THE THIN MAN]

Basically comes down to accepting personal responsibility for the players.

• responsible for what goes in their own bodies; it even says so in the WADA code.

They are not little children but professional athletes/adults with various channels of information/advice open to them.

The players where quite happy to sit on the sidelines during the court case even Justice Middleton commented on this as he thought they should have been party to it.

Once the judgement was adverse then suddenly they are the innocent victim in all this; they are guilty whether it is stupidity or knowingly taking dubious drugs.

I can not accept that they where brainwashed into taking the drugs; they knew it was "cutting edge" and where quite happy for the advantages afforded to the on the playing field.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Basically comes down to accepting personal responsibility for the players.

• responsible for what goes in their own bodies; it even says so in the WADA code.

They are not little children but professional athletes/adults with various channels of information/advice open to them.

The players where quite happy to sit on the sidelines during the court case even Justice Middleton commented on this as he thought they should have been party to it.

Once the judgement was adverse then suddenly they are the innocent victim in all this; they are guilty whether it is stupidity or knowingly taking dubious drugs.

I can not accept that they where brainwashed into taking the drugs; they knew it was "cutting edge" and where quite happy for the advantages afforded to the on the playing field.

How would the players being party to the case made any difference? If it would have, Middleton would have insisted they attend (something that many thought likely), but he deemed it unnecessary.

On the personal responsibility, I agree in principle, but where do you draw the line? They signed a consent form listing substances, but the main issue is the difference between thymosin a and b (it didn't specify). Also how are they supposed to make determinations on the classification of some of the more ambiguous items? If it's to rely upon expert advice, this is what they thought they were getting from Dank and Reid (which is one reason I still think the officials should be looking at sanctions much heavier than the players is the case for tb4 is proven).

 

[THE THIN MAN]

The current process is dealing with the players.

If sanctions are applied to players then the accountability to officials will start to be the prime focus of ASADA.

First the players then the officials/regime that was responsible for this horrendous situation.

 

[Straya]

One thing i will say.... l'm not standing up for Hird, but his health looks s**t. He's aged about 20 years. Now thats his own fault, but l dont like watching anyone deteoriate, no matter who they are.

Before anyone says it... quite aware that no regard was taken in respect of the players.

Jetsetting can be tiring

 

[Roachy8]

Jetsetting can be tiring

As is having a permanent boner for the past 3 years.

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

One thing i will say.... l'm not standing up for Hird, but his health looks s**t. He's aged about 20 years. Now thats his own fault, but l dont like watching anyone deteriorate, no matter who they are.

Before anyone says it... quite aware that no regard was taken in respect of the players.

Nobody does Wally, but he's a grown man and in charge of his own destiny.

 

[SpudsLoveChild]

One thing i will say.... l'm not standing up for Hird, but his health looks s**t. He's aged about 20 years. Now thats his own fault, but l dont like watching anyone deteoriate, no matter who they are.

Before anyone says it... quite aware that no regard was taken in respect of the players.

Funnily enough Tanya hasn't aged a day through this saga.

 

[DrMike]

How about this?
I don't think the players are as innocent as people are making out, and they are 100% responsible for the substances that go into their body. A cheat is a cheat, and they can get out of the game I want to enjoy without questioning whether players are performing a certain way due to an unfair advantage

Still haven't said they're guilty, just that a player should be more responsible for what goes into their body. There's no public evidence to say that Essendon actually took performance enhancing drugs. Yet the player portrayal in this is completely innocent, whether this be by media or AFL design. As Tigerbob said it just doesn't stack up, at a certain point in time the continued participation changes from no fault or negligence to an active participant. If Essendon players were to use a no fault of negligence defense, I don't see how that should be possible. While we're specifically talking about a case involving Essendon players, this opinion holds to every person in sport.

You posted at the start that Efc don't deserve leniency via backdating because of Cronulla, but now you just think no one deserves leniency (I assume from this sentence. Why hide behind saying it's about timelines, when if you hold that view you should be punished to the limit regardless?

I don't think any cheat, regardless of if it's Essendon players, Cronulla players, cyclists, swimmers or any other person under the WADA code, should be shown leniency. But you never asked that, you just jumped to conclusions about my opinion. The Cronulla backdating was something that actually happened, nothing to do with my opinion, what was incorrect was my knowledge around why it was backdated, which I have since found further information about. My opinion has never changed and I have always been truthful to the best of my knowledge.

So what you're saying is you did actually form an opinion based on patchy statements to publicly attack and demean my character. I thought you were unbias? I thought you were pro-process? Where's my innocent until proven guilty? Or is it only your guilty that matters? You're a hypocrite.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Still haven't said they're guilty, just that a player should be more responsible for what goes into their body. There's no public evidence to say that Essendon actually took performance enhancing drugs. Yet the player portrayal in this is completely innocent, whether this be by media or AFL design. As Tigerbob said it just doesn't stack up, at a certain point in time the continued participation changes from no fault or negligence to an active participant. If Essendon players were to use a no fault of negligence defense, I don't see how that should be possible. While we're specifically talking about a case involving Essendon players, this opinion holds to every person in sport.

I don't think any cheat, regardless of if it's Essendon players, Cronulla players, cyclists, swimmers or any other person under the WADA code, should be shown leniency. But you never asked that, you just jumped to conclusions about my opinion. The Cronulla backdating was something that actually happened, nothing to do with my opinion, what was incorrect was my knowledge around why it was backdated, which I have since found further information about. My opinion has never changed and I have always been truthful to the best of my knowledge.

So what you're saying is you did actually form an opinion based on patchy statements to publicly attack and demean my character. I thought you were unbias? I thought you were pro-process? Where's my innocent until proven guilty? Or is it only your guilty that matters? You're a hypocrite.

I was making an opinion based upon information you provided. If its patchy, that not my issue. Also what do you mean innocent until proven guilty? I was responding to points you made. If your points didn't clearly express your true opinion, its hardly my fault for misreading patchy posts.

I'm also not going to bite the bait on the personal attacks - you're a mod and im not, and we know how those disagreements end