Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Mattdougie]

You just make s**t up.

You just make s**t up.

Reported abuse and IGGY for you

 

[gimp!]

Hinkley taking over from the basketcase that was Primus is the equivalent of Eade taking over from the basketcase that was Rohde.
Richardson is overseeing a side that is being led very well by Roo, Hayes and Montagna, good for them. Doesn't mean a thing. (EDIT: Also taking over from the basketcase that was Scott Watters.)

 

[Mattdougie]

The same Herald Sun paper that you're referencing as gospel has declared McCartney as the right man for the job at the Bulldogs and often speaks glowingly of his coaching.
Case closed? I didn't think so.

I didn't say it was gospel I said it was the majority opinion and used that as a basis
But this is just deflecting, regardless what list port had it took Hinkley a pre season to turn them into a drilled, patterned unit.

Case closed

 

[Super Hans]

I didn't say it was gospel I said it was the majority opinion and used that as a basis
But this is just deflecting, regardless what list port had it took Hinkley a pre season to turn them into a drilled, patterned unit.

Case closed

You can't make one argument based around port having 'the worst list ever' then say five minutes later 'this is just deflecting, regardless what list port had'.

 

[Mattdougie]

You can't make one argument based around port having 'the worst list ever' then say five minutes later 'this is just deflecting, regardless what list port had'.

Oh seriously nearly everyone thought ports list was cr@p at the start of last year and they were picked by many to finish bottom two and even the odds reflected that so I'm not making that up.

So it's easy to talk in hindsight about their list not being that bad but do you think they would have been as good if Primus stayed?

Not a chance in hell mate they are a completely different football team

 

[Super Hans]

It's not even worth replying.

 

[Werewolf]

Port's problem before Hinkley arrived was mostly lack of fitness and (I suspect) mental resolve. Their list wasn't too bad.

FWIW Geelong's list was rated as average at the start of 2007, yet they dominated the AA team and won a flag

 

[Testekill]

Port's problem before Hinkley arrived was mostly lack of fitness and (I suspect) mental resolve. Their list wasn't too bad.

FWIW Geelong's list was rated as average at the start of 2007, yet they dominated the AA team and won a flag

Ports biggest problem were the people in charge of the club. The whole place was a boys club and clearing out some of the higher ups had such a positive influence.

 

[Mattdougie]

It's not even worth replying.

Lol our game style is contested footy

Hahahahahhaha

Yeah I wouldn't reply either after that one

 

[Mattdougie]

Port's problem before Hinkley arrived was mostly lack of fitness and (I suspect) mental resolve. Their list wasn't too bad.

FWIW Geelong's list was rated as average at the start of 2007, yet they dominated the AA team and won a flag

This is my point, a good coach can turn whatever the issues are around a lot quicker than 6 years and no one rated geelongs list as average in 2007 . Thompson nearly lost his job early coz the list WAS rated highly and they we're struggling

 

[Mattdougie]

anyway time to go I won't be back til Monday so if we win those saying I'm not around have nothing to whinge about.

Hopefully another win tomorrow, go dogs

 

[Some Idiot]

Everyone suffers from observational bias...

anyway AbeSimpson.gif

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Came home saw, checked the results. Saw this thread had been bumped. Knew immediately the new line of argument that would be run, skipped the next three pages.

 

[paul scholes]

Hinkley taking over from the basketcase that was Primus is the equivalent of Eade taking over from the basketcase that was Rohde.
Richardson is overseeing a side that is being led very well by Roo, Hayes and Montagna, good for them. Doesn't mean a thing. (EDIT: Also taking over from the basketcase that was Scott Watters.)

Yep, ports list had a lot of under performing players on it.
Schultz, westoff ( probably would have got traded) personally thought Port would improve, as they've bottomed out since. 07.You can't have that many good picks that many fails( Melbourne I guess, are a case against)

 

[Proffessor]

I'll try to answer these four points (in red above) as I see them, but as objectively as I can. No rancour or name calling from me. ( I hope it's mutual! )

1. Pure faith? zero time. You simply do not hire on pure faith. You hire on credentials, experience, a detailed plan, a vision, a mutually agreed contract (ie what each party agrees to do to make it work) and an assessment of whether the candidate has what it takes to execute successfully. This applies to"unproven senior coaches" as well as proven ones. Whether they have played at senior level is not all that material provided they have demonstrated credentials. It's just more usual for ex-AFL players to be getting gigs as senior coaches because few others ever attempt it. Our difficulty is that neither you nor I were party to the discussion and written statements about what McCartney is expected to achieve over what period of time. It's unlikely to be made public any time soon... I don't think any club has ever released that sort of information.
How long is enough? See next point.

2. As stated above there would be an agreed plan, almost certainly in writing, of the stages by which the WB/McCartney vision is to be realised. It will not be made public. Yes, it would be nice to see "more positive results" whatever stage we were up to, but for all we know the club may have embraced criteria which we are not measuring (eg list management, player development, brand development, club development, commnity engagement, etc) as well as the most obvious ones of "How many wins?" and "What position on ladder?" Typically a club in decline will require a minimum of 4-5 years to get back to the top (but as others have argued it can be 6-8 years) so the question we are second-guessing is whether McCartney is ahead of or behind the targets he and the club have set for himself. My guess is he's thereabouts, as it probably involved a J-curve of sorts (i.e. we briefly get worse before we gradually get much, much better). Again this is not pure faith but would need to be assessable in terms of many and varied smaller objectives along the way. These are probably being checked off as pass or fail each few months along the journey.

3. The average playing career has little to do with any coaching career so I think this point is irrelevant. (Phonse Kyne and Kevin Sheedy coached their respective clubs for around 30 years. The longest playing career ever is about 18 years I think.) As long as the coach is meeting or exceeding his season-by-season objectives agreed with the club, that's all that matters.

4. Yep, I would like to know the criteria too - I would love to know - but nothing is more certain that we won't ever be told. Well, certainly not during his tenure. It just doesn't happen.
Like it or not we are the ones being asked to demonstrate our faith, not in McCartney but in the board. If you don't like it I suggest you write to the CEO or the club secretary to get it off your chest.

Thanks for the respectful post Dogwatch.

Unfortunately, due to the lack of similarly structured high level football competitions (e.g. salary capped, professional, draft, etc.) for coaches to prove themselves in, I think there is a huge leap of faith with all AFL rookie coaching appointments. This is one of the reasons that it is such a hit or miss process.

There have been a lot of highly touted assistants that get found wanting in the senior job. When you consider McCartney's credentials they are primarily related to references from people like Bomber Thompson and his other Geelong colleagues, rather than any quantitative performance measure of his own coaching performance. From the outside looking in, it would appear that the decision to invite Tom Harley onto the selection committee had a big influence on McCartney getting the job.

AFL playing experience is a factor in his credibility when dealing with players, particularly established senior players. To overcome this you would expect that a coach that lacked such experience would need to bring in some other outstanding strength in his coaching that he can quickly demonstrate. From the outside looking in I can't see that he has demonstrated an obvious strength that compensates for this credibility gap.

I don't expect them to release their targets. However, considering the stated plan when he got the job and leading into 2012 was so dramatically different to the one he switched to later in that season, I doubt that there would be a lot of consistency between what was presented at appointment and what was achieved by the end of last season. I also doubt 15th on the ladder was listed as a pass mark guaranteeing early contract extension for a coach taking over a club finishing 10th the year before his appointment, and then dispensed with the services of the previous coach that had them in the top 4 for the previous 3 seasons.

The reason that I listed the playing career reference was to provide some time perspective. So many people keep saying 'give him a chance' and 'he needs more time' before we judge. Well compared to a lot of coaching and playing careers he has already had plenty of time in which to prove himself.

We are going OK at the moment, and with a sweetheart draw will almost certainly improve our ladder position from last year, but let's not forget that this coach has already had two swings for two big misses. Some of us think we should have seen better form by now.

 

[paul scholes]

This is my point, a good coach can turn whatever the issues are around a lot quicker than 6 years and no one rated geelongs list as average in 2007 . Thompson nearly lost his job early coz the list WAS rated highly and they we're struggling

What's your point?
Don't think the teams improved?

 

[paul scholes]

Thanks for the respectful post Dogwatch.

Unfortunately, due to the lack of similarly structured high level football competitions (e.g. salary capped, professional, draft, etc.) for coaches to prove themselves in, I think there is a huge leap of faith with all AFL rookie coaching appointments. This is one of the reasons that it is such a hit or miss process.

There have been a lot of highly touted assistants that get found wanting in the senior job. When you consider McCartney's credentials they are primarily related to references from people like Bomber Thompson and his other Geelong colleagues, rather than any quantitative performance measure of his own coaching performance. From the outside looking in, it would appear that the decision to invite Tom Harley onto the selection committee had a big influence on McCartney getting the job.

AFL playing experience is a factor in his credibility when dealing with players, particularly established senior players. To overcome this you would expect that a coach that lacked such experience would need to bring in some other outstanding strength in his coaching that he can quickly demonstrate. From the outside looking in I can't see that he has demonstrated an obvious strength that compensates for this credibility gap.

I don't expect them to release their targets. However, considering the stated plan when he got the job and leading into 2012 was so dramatically different to the one he switched to later in that season, I doubt that there would be a lot of consistency between what was presented at appointment and what was achieved by the end of last season. I also doubt 15th on the ladder was listed as a pass mark guaranteeing early contract extension for a coach taking over a club finishing 10th the year before his appointment, and then dispensed with the services of the previous coach that had them in the top 4 for the previous 3 seasons.

The reason that I listed the playing career reference was to provide some time perspective. So many people keep saying 'give him a chance' and 'he needs more time' before we judge. Well compared to a lot of coaching and playing careers he has already had plenty of time in which to prove himself.

We are going OK at the moment, and with a sweetheart draw will almost certainly improve our ladder position from last year, but let's not forget that this coach has already had two swings for two big misses. Some of us think we should have seen better form by now.

Let's look at things in perspective. He took over in 2012 with an ageing list and some poor list management and drafting decisions. He had the final curtain on the class of 99 draft picks . Awful awful drafting, players they drafted
I won't detail ,everyone knows the sorry story. He had our future captain bail out as well as Harbrow, added on with compromised drafts. We're nowhere near Beeing a great side, but we're heading north.
Some fans have put their flag in the sand on their thoughts on McCartney and it's pretty pathetic to be honest

 

[immortalmike]

This thread gives me a headache...so many logical fallacies and perceptual biases...

 

[paul scholes]

Hinkley got a list that the Herald Sun said was the worst lost in the AFL so I don't accept that mate.

Ok in 2 years time do you honestly see us competing for the top 8??

Obviously you do, I don't so that's my issue. It will be his fifth year and no finals.

If that occurs is it time then to move him on or go with another 5 year plan and excuses why it takes so long?

The Herald Sun said so?
That's a compelling argument
The Herald Sun.
You're really struggling fella

 

[paul scholes]

If Riewoldt was playing with us we'd have a few more wins in the 24 months. My feeling is Stkilda will tire in the second half of the season when their draw gets harder and their senior players and youngsters tire. Some on here have a sad pathetic grudge with McCartney and can't see the forest from the trees .

 

[paul scholes]

This is my point, a good coach can turn whatever the issues are around a lot quicker than 6 years and no one rated geelongs list as average in 2007 . Thompson nearly lost his job early coz the list WAS rated highly and they we're struggling

But they didn't. They held firm against the tide. God even your bible The herald sun had him sacked. Mate, honestly you're either an opposition supporting s**t stirrer ( my bet) or you're in serious need of therapy!!

 

[paul scholes]

My works done here

 

[timtamWB]

Anyone wanna know why I have an issue with Macca just watch stkilda or port.

The improvement their respective coaches got from them in THEIR FIRST YEAR is clearly apparent and both those sides lists were considered a lot worse than ours.

Their game structure and defensive patterns are CLEAR for everyone to see and they may not work every week but anyone can see where they are headed.

In maccas third year he cannot say the same and no one can honestly admit they see a clear style week to week.

The results come with that improvement and it hasn't taken them years to turn it around and head forward or use excuses that only buy an inferior coach time

If we had Riewoldt then we would have done the same thing.

 

[the dog's kennel]

Hinkley got a list that the Herald Sun said was the worst lost in the AFL so I don't accept that mate.

Ok in 2 years time do you honestly see us competing for the top 8??

Obviously you do, I don't so that's my issue. It will be his fifth year and no finals.

If that occurs is it time then to move him on or go with another 5 year plan and excuses why it takes so long?

For the record, if we are not competing for the Top 8 (actually make that IN the Top 8) by 2016 then I will happily call for some serious accountability from McCartney. If you want some kind of accountability metrics, I'm happy to agree to that one.

Incidentally, I think Port were at a very different place in 2013 to us in 2012. But St Kilda in 2014 are in a very similar place to us in 2013 - so I think Mattdougie has made a fair team of comparison. At this point I would say the comparison points more to the quality of Richardson's coaching than the paucity of McCartney's - but let's see what happens over the next few months.

 

[staphy]

Truly as sick as you guys are of hearing my cr@p I'm sick of a lot of your opinions also BUT I CAME HERE TONITE IN AN ATTEMPT TO SHOW YPU WHAT I WANNA SEE.

You still clearly all disagree with me which is fine I really don't care, all I want is a competitive team that I can watch and and enjoy win or lose.

I honestly don't see that WVER happening under Macca and time will tell but no matter what excuse people make Richardson and Hinkley have proved that improvement(NOT WINS) doesn't take years

Hey Mattdougie save your typing, most people in this thread respond with rose coloured glass's (they struggle to be objective), been there done that last year, don't respond to this thread any more it will do you head in.