Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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I'm pretty fed up with McCartney's patient lines and I don't think he's selling the club well enough. Game day moves are not that great either. But the developing talent is one area I don't know how you can criticise him on. He's done a top job of helping developing the young guys, so much so that Footscray was able to win the flag. While I don't see guys like Redpath, Cordy and Tutt making I've seen a heap of improvement from them this year. Then also there's Jong who's development has been astonishing, Roberts is starting to really push hard towards the 22, Darley has improved out of sight compared to where he was at the start of the year, Campbell would have won the VFL medal if he played all year, Stringer was killing it at the end of the year, Macrae came 2nd in our BnF, Bontempelli should have won best 1st year player, Hrovat won a rising star award after an injury interrupted pre season, Hunter has got plenty of AFL games this year and has shown heaps, Honeychurch was pushing for selection most of the year, Wood has improved. All these guys I think have shown quite a lot of improvement. Apart from say Talia, it's really only the older player's which have gone backwards. And some of those older player's went significantly backwards too.

On the guys leaving
So let's talk about Jones first. We gave him plenty of game time to show his wares, then he was dropped again towards the end of the year because his last couple games were awful at AFL level. His form after that point was not outstanding in the VFL, but it was probably good enough and we needed a tall forward. The coaches wanted to send him a message and test out his mettle. Test it out they did and as it turns out Jones isn't really made of the right stuff. Was it really that bad that the coaches did this? I'm actually glad they did this as it at least shows us the type of character he is and whether he really wants it bad enough here.

Higgins - well even Eade had trouble finding a position for him in the end. I've heard Higgins wants to leave because he wants more midfield time. But I clearly remember we built up his body to play in the midfield, but then all he did was get injured. His lack of defensive game has always been a concern as a forward, so we trialled him in the back line and the wing. It didn't work out and now he's getting offered a bucket load of money to play elsewhere. Obviously the coach is partly to blame, but I'm not sure exactly what else could have been done to make him stay. He was never going to get that kind of contract being offered up to stay here.

Then there's Pearce if true. Is he really talented enough to keep a spot on the AFL list anyway?

I don't really have much of an issue with how the coaches handled this to be honest. Even if these 3 players are gone by the end of trade week, it's hardly going to be a disaster. I think if we wanted them badly enough, I believe a better contract would be on offer. Jones hurts a little, but he still wasn't able to establish a place in the side after 6 years so perhaps a change was always necessary. If we start losing player's like Dahlhaus, it will become a problem

I'm not prepared to give up on McCartney just yet.
 
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black pup said:
I am so pleased all you FB posters are so happy, I just hope the club has something up it's sleave, we cannot attract players to club. Would Macca be the reason?????
Seniors players upset, how would you like to be sitting in front of a bloke, if you have played 200 AFL games, and this bloke who could not get a game at NHILL seconds, starts telling you, what's wrong with you. Does not make a lot of sense to me.
The way he handled MACARE, just bloody terrible, great kid, hope he doesn't destroy him and our other good kids. Big worry this bloke will not develop our kids the right way.
The bullshit he constantly goes own about, we are teaching and developing, he has got a lot of WESTERN BULLDOG People thinking, we are the only team that teach and develop.
this is just MORE RUBBISH we are being fed. STRANGE, I think most clubs are doing it better than us.
Funny this is his big claim, that's his strengths, where are we going.
This bloke is a disaster, I cannot see us finishing better than 16, next season.
He has to be sacked to limit the damage. NOW,
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Black Pup not sure who you are referring to when you say all FB posters are happy. I would think I fit in with all and am not happy, just believe it is much bigger than 1 person and 1 persons issue.

In saying that there is yet to be one person who has left that I didn't want traded, for both club and player I may add, and of the senior players frankly if it was confirmed some were upset I would really only have an issue if it was a Morris, Murphy or Griffen, which has not been confirmed.

Is Macca the reason? could be. Could also be we have a list that will not be challenging for another 3 years or a myriad of other reasons. Is it the list Manager? Should there be a thorough review? Yes, as there should be at the end of every season.

I know you are a former player, but really this statement is childish. Coaching is very different to playing. We have seen many a champion fail as a coach. I have coached ex AFL players and I dare say Macca was a better player than me, a hack in the FDL second division, yet I got great respect from the player in fact players by demonstrating instructions and how different actions lead to different reactions and so on. In other words, yes a player at the top level has a form of gravitas a non player does not have but it does not make them a better coach. If you have not played at the highest level you do need to be able to communicate better, clearly demonstrate what is trying to be done and demonstrate ramifications of not doing certain things. This can lead to better coaching as you have to prove your coaching ability at a higher level as you do not have a playing reputation to fall back on.

However, how well Macca does this I do not know as I am not in the inner sanctum. We know he did it really well as an assistant, but as the main man, well that is a different ball game and you may well be correct. So though I totally disagree with your premise, Macca himself may not be able to bridge the non playing gap required by a senior coach. Would be interested if you could provide examples.

Mac Crae, yeah poorly handled and he has admitted this. if you have an issue with a player and you are a coach, look the guy in the eyes if you want respect. Hopefully it is a one off, but if there is further evidence again this would seriously concern me.

I do get teaching and developing, but this only has a limited timeframe. At some stage you need to teach and develop how to win. If we are not close to winning 50% of our games next year we do need to move on. The though process this means starting again is nonsense. A new coaching group never throws the baby out with the bathwater. If they are any good they would build on the good work already done and make adjustments where necessary.

one thing I do know as a FACT, no matter who is coaching the dogs there will be threads like this as no coach ever has 100% support
 
lachy said:
Black Pup not sure who you are referring to when you say all FB posters are happy. I would think I fit in with all and am not happy, just believe it is much bigger than 1 person and 1 persons issue.

In saying that there is yet to be one person who has left that I didn't want traded, for both club and player I may add, and of the senior players frankly if it was confirmed some were upset I would really only have an issue if it was a Morris, Murphy or Griffen, which has not been confirmed.

Is Macca the reason? could be. Could also be we have a list that will not be challenging for another 3 years or a myriad of other reasons. Is it the list Manager? Should there be a thorough review? Yes, as there should be at the end of every season.

I know you are a former player, but really this statement is childish. Coaching is very different to playing. We have seen many a champion fail as a coach. I have coached ex AFL players and I dare say Macca was a better player than me, a hack in the FDL second division, yet I got great respect from the player in fact players by demonstrating instructions and how different actions lead to different reactions and so on. In other words, yes a player at the top level has a form of gravitas a non player does not have but it does not make them a better coach. If you have not played at the highest level you do need to be able to communicate better, clearly demonstrate what is trying to be done and demonstrate ramifications of not doing certain things. This can lead to better coaching as you have to prove your coaching ability at a higher level as you do not have a playing reputation to fall back on.

However, how well Macca does this I do not know as I am not in the inner sanctum. We know he did it really well as an assistant, but as the main man, well that is a different ball game and you may well be correct. So though I totally disagree with your premise, Macca himself may not be able to bridge the non playing gap required by a senior coach. Would be interested if you could provide examples.

Mac Crae, yeah poorly handled and he has admitted this. if you have an issue with a player and you are a coach, look the guy in the eyes if you want respect. Hopefully it is a one off, but if there is further evidence again this would seriously concern me.

I do get teaching and developing, but this only has a limited timeframe. At some stage you need to teach and develop how to win. If we are not close to winning 50% of our games next year we do need to move on. The though process this means starting again is nonsense. A new coaching group never throws the baby out with the bathwater. If they are any good they would build on the good work already done and make adjustments where necessary.

one thing I do know as a FACT, no matter who is coaching the dogs there will be threads like this as no coach ever has 100% support
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Lachy, good post.

Just a couple of things that concern me apart from how players may or may not feel because of Macca.

I am not sure if my expectation is over the top but in the 3 years Macca has been at the helm I have not seen any of these addressed.

1. When a team has gotten a run on they have kicked 2 or 3 quick goals on us that has eventually blown out to 5,6 or even 7. What has Macca done once that team has scored the 2 or 3 quick ones? What plan has he put in place? There seems to be a lack of action and all we hear is we moved away from the way we wanted to play. Every time the camera pans to him he is not even on the phone. There is no action because there is no plan.

2. Has Macca developed a strategy on kick ins? in 3 years I would say kicking in after a point we have no idea what, when and how to bring the ball in. It is ad-hoc at best. There is not 1 set play to get the ball from Murf to x then to y and so on.

3. What is our style of play? What is our trademark? Do we use the corridor, do we seek the corridor? do we play on, have we got a plan to move the ball?

This is not a complete list but it shows me that when we go out there to play we don't have a plan to win the game and that is Maccas domain.

It seems to me players go out there and don't know what they should be doing, one players is not in sync with another.

I know an assistant at another club and the depth they go into when there is a kick in, a throw in, a stoppage inside 50 both in attack and in defence is scary. Are we at that level? Is it too much to expect after 3 years.

Surely in 3 years you could develop a kick in system at a minimum.
 

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Dog 36 said:
Surely in 3 years you could develop a kick in system at a minimum.
Click to expand...

And one that can hold up even if the personnel are not exactly the same each week too. Like you, I don't buy that it takes years to develop a strategy for this. Yes, players change, but a plan should transcend the individuals.
 
Dog 36 said:
Lachy, good post.

Just a couple of things that concern me apart from how players may or may not feel because of Macca.

I am not sure if my expectation is over the top but in the 3 years Macca has been at the helm I have not seen any of these addressed.

1. When a team has gotten a run on they have kicked 2 or 3 quick goals on us that has eventually blown out to 5,6 or even 7. What has Macca done once that team has scored the 2 or 3 quick ones? What plan has he put in place? There seems to be a lack of action and all we hear is we moved away from the way we wanted to play. Every time the camera pans to him he is not even on the phone. There is no action because there is no plan.

2. Has Macca developed a strategy on kick ins? in 3 years I would say kicking in after a point we have no idea what, when and how to bring the ball in. It is ad-hoc at best. There is not 1 set play to get the ball from Murf to x then to y and so on.

3. What is our style of play? What is our trademark? Do we use the corridor, do we seek the corridor? do we play on, have we got a plan to move the ball?

This is not a complete list but it shows me that when we go out there to play we don't have a plan to win the game and that is Maccas domain.

It seems to me players go out there and don't know what they should be doing, one players is not in sync with another.

I know an assistant at another club and the depth they go into when there is a kick in, a throw in, a stoppage inside 50 both in attack and in defence is scary. Are we at that level? Is it too much to expect after 3 years.

Surely in 3 years you could develop a kick in system at a minimum.
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Some great questions dog 36, I will give you my opinions other may have differences:
1. Drop a player in the back half.

It can work but there 2 issues we have with this, leaves a player loose I the oppositions back half. Good teams exploit this as our forwards do not seem to know how to cope. Simply one of our forwards should push up on the loose and though it will still be 2 on one at least their loose will have pressure.

Our loose man in defence seems to just hang around in the oppositions forward line. Effective loose players in the back line read the ball coming in and go into the dangerous area as the ball comes in. Ours seem to worried about players and not the ball. once we have the ball the loose should provde the run and spread for attacking from the backline or block for one of his teammates.

To be fair to Macca the line coaches should be teaching this, its fairly basic

2. the line coach should be all over this. There should be 3 or 4 options and structures dependant on the structure the opposition is putting up. TBH I have no idea what we are doing, I am sure there is something, but it looks like the players have little idea either.

3. We started with the contested ball mantra. The issue with this is too many players are sucked into the contest which leave the opposition on the outside and with a massive advantage in run and spread. Keep in mind football at this level is compressed into a 60 or 80 meter area of the ground. Step 1 is setting up effective structures for the neutral ball then adjusting once either they have won it or we have. This really does take 4 or 5 years to implement so I would expect massive improvement in this.

It is not so much a style of play but using your strengths. quick ball movement is sometimes confused with players being quick. At this stage we have no style of play. But really there are only 3 scenarios in footy. We have it, they have it and its in dispute. They have it push back, apply extreme pressure as high up as possible to force a turnover in dangerous positions or if not possible force the opposition to move the ball where they do not want to. In dispute structure up behind the ball to ensure you can block easy passage for them or a springboard for attack for us. Make sure all of their players in dangerous positions are covered. We get it. Run, spread, block and be brave. Make sure all up ground are moving and players are leading into dangerous positions not just parking themselves there. If you are going to switch do it with intent.

We do this in patches but no where near enough. Really it is this area where those wanting Macca sacked could really go to town, yet they seem to miss his biggest flaw to this stage as a coach. In his defence he has said this will take a few years, so Macca your time is now.

It is now Macca and his teams 4th year. IF we get it right we should see some discernable improvement. I know talking 2 years ago with a current assistant of another club this is the timeframe they expect results to improve.

I hope I have answered your questions
 
Bazza Bulldog said:
Can't find the reference to this in previous pages. What is this all about?
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From a quote in the Trade and List Management thread.

Dale4captain said:
I may as well spill my news, Pearce was willing to walk from the club after the GF, but the club has offered him a spot on the rookie list so we'll see what happens I guess.

He wasn't overly keen to sit on the rookie list which is understandable. Not sure he'd have too many offers from other clubs if he completely walked away.

Useful lockdown defender and one of the few we have on the list so I'm expecting us to give him one more year. We don't want too many draft picks and we're currently projected to have about 6 free list spots so Daniel may as well keep his.
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Dog 36 said: ↑
Surely in 3 years you could develop a kick in system at a minimum.

ivan rassmussen said:
And one that can hold up even if the personnel are not exactly the same each week too. Like you, I don't buy that it takes years to develop a strategy for this. Yes, players change, but a plan should transcend the individuals.
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I have a good friend who is a Cats supporter and one of his main criticisms of Geelong is this very problem.
So we are not on our Pat Malone.
 
lachy said:
It is now Macca and his teams 4th year. IF we get it right we should see some discernable improvement. I know talking 2 years ago with a current assistant of another club this is the timeframe they expect results to improve.

I hope I have answered your questions
Click to expand...

There should be some discernible improvement BUT the improvement I am looking for is not from 2014 to 2015 but from when Macca began till 2015.

TBH I have not seen anything to suggest that in 2015 we will see a huge amount of improvement that will encompass the previous 3 years of Maccas time.

There is a huge amount that needs to come together in 2015 to tie up loose ends so to speak. I would have hoped that this year some of the things mentioned we would have seen some real progress.

Simple things such as when players are playing on and I see players up the field have there backs turned to them, that suggests to me either its lack of coaching or our players are the dumbest going around or a combination of both.

When I look at opposition sides setting up for a possible kick in from a point when we are having a set shot and our players have switched off I wonder if Macca is pointing this out to them or does he not know how to set up a zone to deal with it.
 
Dog 36 said:
There should be some discernible improvement BUT the improvement I am looking for is not from 2014 to 2015 but from when Macca began till 2015.

TBH I have not seen anything to suggest that in 2015 we will see a huge amount of improvement that will encompass the previous 3 years of Maccas time.

There is a huge amount that needs to come together in 2015 to tie up loose ends so to speak. I would have hoped that this year some of the things mentioned we would have seen some real progress.

Simple things such as when players are playing on and I see players up the field have there backs turned to them, that suggests to me either its lack of coaching or our players are the dumbest going around or a combination of both.

When I look at opposition sides setting up for a possible kick in from a point when we are having a set shot and our players have switched off I wonder if Macca is pointing this out to them or does he not know how to set up a zone to deal with it.
Click to expand...
As I have stated in this thread many times my biggest concern is the lack of team type development. Macca is accountable for it but so are the line coaches. One is gone we will see what happens now
 

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Dog 36 said:
This is not a complete list but it shows me that when we go out there to play we don't have a plan to win the game and that is Maccas domain.

It seems to me players go out there and don't know what they should be doing, one players is not in sync with another.
Click to expand...

How about the number of times multiple players lead to the same space? ok often there is no movement but at other times we just fill the gap. Compare this to Port Adelaide, their passing to space which is filled by a player coming up the ground is fantastic.

Of course there is our standing handball receive which other teams have come nowhere near perfecting although saw a few efforts from geelong in the finals that showed they were using it.
 
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