Victorian trainers scandal

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HeathComeBack said:
name something bigger? there will be 1000s of horses without trainers. they will get moved somewhere.. most likely interstate. Our horses will be Townsville standard.. think about it.
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Like I say, the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but make no mistake - this is big. I have heard to of the trainers involved, vigorously defend themselves and their stables over this and basically paint RV as the bad guys. Cobalt / EPO have undeniably been prevalent in both codes for many years, the chemists always remain a step ahead of the testers and its extremely hard to catch them in the act.

This is a big turning point in the cases because it correlates with the NSW stories of persons supplying cobalt chloride directly, not via a "supplements program" as has been mooted.

Before we jump yo conclusions, let's wait for the names to be joined up, if it is the high profile vet mentioned in some media, you would think that some of the major stables in this state could be looking at 3 years on the sideline.

It's a litmus test for how serious they are about integrity. They can't afford the wet lettuce approach.
 

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HeathComeBack said:
name something bigger? there will be 1000s of horses without trainers. they will get moved somewhere.. most likely interstate. Our horses will be Townsville standard.. think about it.
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wut?

One of the most popular teams in Australia's premier domestic football competition running a club wide doping program was pretty big. Seemed to hit that sport pretty hard. Oh wait...
 
western royboy said:
Cobalt / EPO have undeniably been prevalent in both codes for many years, the chemists always remain a step ahead of the testers and its extremely hard to catch them in the act.
.
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This.

The vet/chemists will always be ahead of the game and always have been. This kind of thing would have been going on since day dot and you would have had to have your head in the sand to think otherwise. Trainers will be banned but they will be replaced - their will be no impact on the horse population and it will all be forgotten by the time the Spring Carnival comes around just like how no one talks about Olly betting in races he was riding in any more.
 
iluvparis said:
This.

The vet/chemists will always be ahead of the game and always have been. This kind of thing would have been going on since day dot and you would have had to have your head in the sand to think otherwise. Trainers will be banned but they will be replaced - their will be no impact on the horse population and it will all be forgotten by the time the Spring Carnival comes around just like how no one talks about Olly betting in races he was riding in any more.
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You aren't telling me anything, except to say if 8-12 Trainers got turfed for three years (including some high profile) it will have an effect of that I am sure. One trainer involved thus far has said that he would normally have received up to 25 horses from clients at yearling sales that he played no role in purchasing. At the moment he had received nil for the year that he doesn't have a share in.

The Oliver case sticks out as a major black mark against the sport and its governance and as I type, it's being brought up again in relation to the Bulldogs betting incident.

This case is a litmus test for ratings integrity - Terry Bailey will go hard, RV have to back him or else they may as well just let them remove all drug rules and let them run open slather.
 
iluvparis said:
wut?

One of the most popular teams in Australia's premier domestic football competition running a club wide doping program was pretty big. Seemed to hit that sport pretty hard. Oh wait...
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I am talking about horse racing. Ok Phar Lap getting shot at might have been a bigger scandal.. in the 30s, but if you suspend say 10 of the top 20 trainers in Victoria, the horses have to go somewhere. You think the owners will give them to someone who trains 10 winners a year? This is huge.. and its not just the trainers getting suspended. After the Melbourne Cup furor people will just think of horse racing as a joke.

I love horse racing.. ive been following it since i was 5 .. that was over 40 years ago.. i have watched over 50 thousand races live at least. I never miss a weekend race and i wish all the best for it cos its the most interesting thing in my life. The sad part is i have watched the racing industry totally self destruct in many ways over the last 10 to 15 years.. the public perception of racing is that racing is corrupt and kills horses. This is almost the last straw. The die hards will hang around but they wont get any newbies into the industry and new blood is what the industry needs. Racing will become like it is in most of America. Irrelevant.
 
Fine Cotton anyone?

Seriously though the racing game is one of the most corrupt and dirty industries in the world. Thoroughbred racing is in far better shape than it was a decade ago, or Harness was/is. Harness specifically are years ahead of thoroughbreds in drugs used/masked. This just seems a case of the one that got caught, where the stewards are beginning to finally make a dent in the corruption that's been there forever. Personally I think they've made great progress recently.

In WA recently we've had positive tests to freakish drugs such as Arsenic or rumours of snake venom, multitudes of trainers being suspended/fined (some quite large, see Ranger), jockeys punting or race riding hours after taking some very hard drugs, even causing falls. Yet it still seems a far more level playing field than recent times.

A handful of trainers being rubbed out will only be a minor dent in racing victoria, these things happen regularly just not all at once like this.
 
Posted at the time of the live baiting situation of the greyhounds, that the three codes are under siege - Either from animal liberationists, the stupidity of licensed persons, and the regulators of the codes. There will be more rocky times ahead for the three codes.

Pat Bartley has been spot on with his reporting of the horse racing industry in the last two months. Take his story at face value and trainers will get done for two or three years. Of course, Chris Waller could have a stable of 800 horses, though he is under a cloud - Anyway there is one trainer who will benefit big time if there is a shake up - That's the David Hayes/Tom Dabernig partnership.
 
Terry Bailey has apparently said on RSN that the Vet concerned has no connection to the 4 stables with above threshold tests at this stage. This just makes it a wider investigation with multiple angles of inquiry now. It's going to take a long time to resolve.
 
FallingLiefs said:
Fine Cotton anyone?

Seriously though the racing game is one of the most corrupt and dirty industries in the world. Thoroughbred racing is in far better shape than it was a decade ago, or Harness was/is. Harness specifically are years ahead of thoroughbreds in drugs used/masked. This just seems a case of the one that got caught, where the stewards are beginning to finally make a dent in the corruption that's been there forever. Personally I think they've made great progress recently.

In WA recently we've had positive tests to freakish drugs such as Arsenic or rumours of snake venom, multitudes of trainers being suspended/fined (some quite large, see Ranger), jockeys punting or race riding hours after taking some very hard drugs, even causing falls. Yet it still seems a far more level playing field than recent times.

A handful of trainers being rubbed out will only be a minor dent in racing victoria, these things happen regularly just not all at once like this.
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oh i forgot about Fine Cotton :$
Racing has been corrupt but generally a blind eye was turned to all the corruption. The difference between the olden days and now days is that the media.. instead of protecting it is out to get it.
There is a difference between a handful of trainers and all our top trainers being rubbed out at the same time. Its much more serious.

Ans as for the state of racing being in better shape than a decade ago? ummm not even close. It is a total rabble now. but i haven't got enough time or space to type out all the problems.
 

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HeathComeBack said:
Ans as for the state of racing being in better shape than a decade ago? ummm not even close. It is a total rabble now. but i haven't got enough time or space to type out all the problems.
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Please do - as personally I find this statement entirely false.
 
FallingLiefs said:
Fine Cotton anyone?

Seriously though the racing game is one of the most corrupt and dirty industries in the world. Thoroughbred racing is in far better shape than it was a decade ago, or Harness was/is. Harness specifically are years ahead of thoroughbreds in drugs used/masked. This just seems a case of the one that got caught, where the stewards are beginning to finally make a dent in the corruption that's been there forever. Personally I think they've made great progress recently.

In WA recently we've had positive tests to freakish drugs such as Arsenic or rumours of snake venom, multitudes of trainers being suspended/fined (some quite large, see Ranger), jockeys punting or race riding hours after taking some very hard drugs, even causing falls. Yet it still seems a far more level playing field than recent times.

A handful of trainers being rubbed out will only be a minor dent in racing victoria, these things happen regularly just not all at once like this.
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I've seen trainers (or steward hands I guess) feeding Monster energy drinks to horses on race days here in WA. Bizarre stuff.
 
iluvparis said:
Please do - as personally I find this statement entirely false.
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you asked for it!
The horses are way worse, and that's because we are selling the good horses we are breeding to Hong Kong and Singapore and buying hack stayers from Europe, and also breeding from the hacks rather than raiding Japan for good sires and mares. there is a reason Pinker Pinker won a Cox Plate and Suavito won a Futurity, because the good mares are the only horses we keep, good geldings get sold overseas and entires retire early (although that was always the case).
Someone please give me one good reason why the rating system is better than the old class system? The rating system just encourages mediocre horses to get pulled up so that they can race in easier races, it leads to plethora of absolutely shocking ratings races every day that are worse then maidens, and horse don't race through the classes like they used to, hence we get good horses that have short careers because they reach their class too quickly, or we get hack horses who race forever because they can win 0-58 races. Do not tell me that its good because it works overseas. We had the best system and copied a shocking system because "most of the rest of the world" did it.
We race too much causing racing fatigue for everyone.
We cannot get a decent coverage of racing on TV because of the greed of the TAB
The privatization of the TAB has caused a loss of interest in horse racing because they just care about getting people to punt on anything (the abomination that is trackside) instead of promoting horse racing as a sport rather than a betting medium.
Crowds are down everywhere and dont say the are up at the Flemington Carnival. 80 percent of those goers wouldnt know what a horse looked like. They are party crowds not horse racing crowds.
Media coverage has almost disappeared. It used to be the 3rd biggest sport now it would be lucky to be top ten, except any type of controversy then its front page.
Different bodies running racing in different states leads to ridiculous race programming.
Promoters seem to think that they will get the person off the street to see jockeys, most don't care.. its the horses that are the stars so promote the horses not jockeys.
Prizemoney is down.
Trainers expenses are too high for the average owner

now tell me why racing is better now?
 
HeathComeBack said:
you asked for it!
The horses are way worse, and that's because we are selling the good horses we are breeding to Hong Kong and Singapore and buying hack stayers from Europe, and also breeding from the hacks rather than raiding Japan for good sires and mares. there is a reason Pinker Pinker won a Cox Plate and Suavito won a Futurity, because the good mares are the only horses we keep, good geldings get sold overseas and entires retire early (although that was always the case).
Someone please give me one good reason why the rating system is better than the old class system? The rating system just encourages mediocre horses to get pulled up so that they can race in easier races, it leads to plethora of absolutely shocking ratings races every day that are worse then maidens, and horse don't race through the classes like they used to, hence we get good horses that have short careers because they reach their class too quickly, or we get hack horses who race forever because they can win 0-58 races. Do not tell me that its good because it works overseas. We had the best system and copied a shocking system because "most of the rest of the world" did it.
We race too much causing racing fatigue for everyone.
We cannot get a decent coverage of racing on TV because of the greed of the TAB
The privatization of the TAB has caused a loss of interest in horse racing because they just care about getting people to punt on anything (the abomination that is trackside) instead of promoting horse racing as a sport rather than a betting medium.
Crowds are down everywhere and dont say the are up at the Flemington Carnival. 80 percent of those goers wouldnt know what a horse looked like. They are party crowds not horse racing crowds.
Media coverage has almost disappeared. It used to be the 3rd biggest sport now it would be lucky to be top ten, except any type of controversy then its front page.
Different bodies running racing in different states leads to ridiculous race programming.
Promoters seem to think that they will get the person off the street to see jockeys, most don't care.. its the horses that are the stars so promote the horses not jockeys.
Prizemoney is down.
Trainers expenses are too high for the average owner

now tell me why racing is better now?
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Errr I'm pretty sure ALL of these issues still existed 10 years ago and horse racing seems to still be doing ok.

The reason we can't breed any decent horses is because we are all trying to breed squibs for the Golden Slipper - that is a problem that is 30-40 years in the making. It has nothing to do with importing SUPERIOR horse flesh from Europe.

Is prizemoney actually down? Don't remember that happening recently but could be wrong.
Where crowds that much higher TEN years ago (would highly doubt it)?

Also not sure what any of this has to do with the drugs issue.
 
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rating system has only been in 5 years or so, TV coverage was not saturated 10 years ago, Prizemoney was higher 10 years ago, training fees were semi affordable 10 years ago. Australia had the best horses 20 years ago, they were on a par with the rest of the world 10 years ago, now they are shocking. European horses are superior now, but not compared to Japanese. Asians have the right idea.. buy Australian bred horses because they dominate in Hong Kong. Japanese copied Australian racing.. says it all. they have a thriving industry. European RAcing is not exactly thriving either. Media coverage was strong 10 years ago..

i repeat .. tell me your reasons for thinking racing is better now. I am listening
 
Please provide me with a link where prizemoney was higher 10 years ago than it is today.

Without looking that hard I have already found a benchmark race as far back as 2008 so that is also wrong.

Complete B/S that Australia had the best horses 20 years ago too - based on what?

Japan STILL hasn't won an Arc despite sending their brightest and best over every years

You are just spouting absolute rubbish without anything to back it up.
 
iluvparis said:
Please provide me with a link where prizemoney was higher 10 years ago than it is today.

Without looking that hard I have already found a benchmark race as far back as 2008 so that is also wrong.

Complete B/S that Australia had the best horses 20 years ago satoo - based on what?

Japan STILL hasn't won an Arc despite sending their brightest and best over every years

You are just spouting absolute rubbish without anything to back it up.
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http://www.horseracinginfo.com.au/australian-group-1-races.php
the futurity was a million dollar race a few years ago. A lot of those races had higher prizemoney a few years ago. I should clarify that the group races have lower prizemoney . i cant find anything online but races like the Gold Coast Cup was worth 500 k 20 years ago... not anymore. The average race has lower prizemoney relative to inflation.
20 years ago Naturalism almost won a Japan Cup with a broken hoof. That was a field full of Europeans. The Filbert who was a good average weight for age galloper ran third. We didnt even send our best horses over there then . Thats the only competition we had then and we won it all. Thats the only proof i have cos its physical proof.
Tell me again why racing is better now
 
Lol our middle distance horses were no where near on par with the rest of the worlds best. Makybe Diva may have been a slight chance to finish just behind them but she failed in Japan still. Savabeel, Fields of Omagh, El Segundo? These horses were never even close

Our sprinters were up there with the best back then, but they still are now too
 
HeathComeBack said:
false figure.. way more racing now
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Also false in 2003/04 there were 20,000 races; in 2013.14 there were 19500

Mate you are a complete joke - you couldn't have been more wrong about pretty much anything you've said.
 
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