Weight Training: Functional Strength

[Kong]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Stiff leg deadlift, pretty much the same as a Romanian deadlift except you keep your knees locked out (at least to my knowledge thats the difference). I find it easier to keep my lower back from rounding than with RDLs for some reason, kinda counter intuitive I know but probably due to my big ass femurs.

Ah of course. Just didn't know what the acronym stood for.

Yeah I find it difficult to prevent my back from rounding using a regular deadlift technique; I still lift it 'properly' and without any discomfort, but I'd prefer to keep my back straight.

As a result, I do a lift that lies somewhere in between a regular and stiff-legged deadlift. As with legs, I have barely touched these since getting crook. A few weeks ago I did a warm-up set followed by two sets of 5x115kg. I left it at that, and was sure enough very sore the next day. I normally find the post-workout soreness very satisfying, but it becomes a problem when your body's still recovering from severe stress and takes 3x as long.

Next week, all things going well!

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

I was sort of in the same boat but it actually helped me out, had to take a few weeks off squatting due to the elbow and it ended up acting as a bit of a taper I guess.

Was it the old swine flu?

 

[swiftdog]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

1 - squats are a quad diminant movement, even box squats with a wider stance...hypertrophy and strength can be acheived with as little as 40% of 1rm in beginners...anything done frequently enough at high volume will elicit hypertrophy...look at mechanics forearms

2 - well you're leaving plenty of pounds on the bench if your not ressiting the eccentric through your back...if it's the right technique then shouldn't you have to do it? the upper back works as a stabiliser once again and if it doesn't then that bar doesn't come off your chest

3 - learn the exercise then strengthen the quad...gotta calf before you can walk

4 - if the glutes aren't activated which in most cases they aren't then they certaintly aren't taking a prime mover role in anything which is where your quads will squat for you and your lower will extend the hip for you so they get overworked and then get injured

Sorry to bring this thread a little off-topic again

1. Squat's clearly are quad dominant movement, but they can't extend your hips for you. That's where glute max, med and adductor magnus enter. The reason a newbie gets their big early gains is due to neural adaptations which I briefly touched on before, not due to muscular adaptations. There will be some muscular adaptation's as well, not as prominant as the neural adaptations early on though. Hypertrophy is primarily volume dependant but it's more than simply muscle fibre's getting bigger. There still needs to be an adequate load otherwise we're getting into more strength-endurance type activity. I can't be assed going into the physiology of it all.

2. I can see what you're saying but what parts of the body is it that the upper back muscles are stabilising?

3. The pattelofemoral pain is gone, I did bilateral leg press.

4. When do you mean the glute's aren't activated, when getting injured in a footy game or during a squat? Glutes activate during a squat, if you want to get stronger glute's then you can do squat's to work them, it's the way the body works when squatting. Did you mean the lower back when you said lower, erector spinae should only be stabilising by preventing flexion of the vertical column during a squat, they get overworked with poor technique.

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

the actual stiff legged version isn't great for the knees and doesn't get the glutes as good as the semi stiff variation for mine

good job on the pr

Yeah I figured there could be a bit of hyper extension going on but I try to keep it relatively light and watch out for any soreness.

I would say the glutes are getting enough from the squats.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

1 - nervous system improvements improve strength not actual size...i don't think i ever said squats train hip ext?

2 - upper back also stabilises the body during bicep curls so again if it isn't up to par then you'r curl will be ordinary...i hardly curl but i can do 40kgs for reps and only because i train back hard and often...tricep exercises on your back too

3 - glutes don't just activate during an exercise, they literally need to activated in isolation through glute bridges, clams etc...they can still get sore when they're not activated through squats and lunges simply because they are put in a stretched position at the bootom of those movements...905 of people's glutes can't perform hip extension over a full range of motion without the lower back and some hamstirngs taking over the movement from synergist dominance

Yeah I figured there could be a bit of hyper extension going on but I try to keep it relatively light and watch out for any soreness.

I would say the glutes are getting enough from the squats.

refer to point 3 above.

squats only train the glutes in the stretched position...there is also the contracted position (deadlifts etc) where your arse must go back then come forwrad again...with the actual stiff leg version it's more your torso coming forward then your hips going back putting the lower back at a big risk

eased back into it a few days later and have only gone full intensity for 2 of the last 3 weeks, as I'm still not 100% (at least in my mind).

i compressed a disc or something in my back a couple of months ago which didn;t allow me to bend for a while so deadlifts were out...for the next week i did single leg stuff and the rest of the body...the next week i started back at deads with a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 approiach (sets of) and even though i maxed out at 80 the first week back, within a month i was back at 95% of my 150kg max...it seemed to work well, low-ish volume felt good for the comeback

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

1 - squats are a quad diminant movement

The quad only function in a squat is to extend the knee. Hence, the only portion of the squat which could possibly be quad dominant is the part where there is primarily knee extension.

In a properly performed low-bar back squat, you establish the knee position in the top 1/3 of the squat. The rest of the movement, ie the bottom 2/3, should be hip extension. There is knee extension during this passive, but it is passive and secondary to hip extension. Quads cannot extend the hips - if they try to, you get hip flexor tendonitis (check out how many people complain of this when they start squatting - also related to glute inhibition, which you correctly raise as an issue). Your hamstrings, glutes, adductors and other hip stabilisers are the prime movers in a low-bar back squat, which is why it is the king over other squat variants. In a subject with proper glute function, the glute should be the prime mover, following closely by hamstrings.

If done properly, sufficient momentum is created in the bottom 2/3 of the squat, particularly if stretch-shorten cycle is used correctly, that the top 1/3 is easy. The sticking point for experienced squatters, is about 1/2 up, where hip drive is most mechanically disadvantaged.

If your back squat is quad dominant, you are either:
(a) squatting high (most likely answer for most people I see squat)
(b) letting your knees slide forward, turning the movement into primarily a knee extension movement (ie trying to do a front squat squat), very bad for your knees and hip flexors
(c) getting the weight onto your toes and doing a leg press with a bar on your back (also very common)

 

[swiftdog]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

1. I'll restate, there's minimal hypertrophy (in terms of physiological processes) when a beginner begins an exercise program. It takes approx 8-12 weeks for the effects of hypertrophy to begin. You're right about the neural improvements though.

2. I agree that if the stabilsers do play a role in exercises but i think your overstating the importance of stabilsers and understating the importance of prime movers.

3. Where do you get your information from? What do you mean glutes don't just activate during an exercise? Find me some scientific-based evidence (There's plenty of evidence for glute activation during squats) that proves what you are saying and I'll believe it. "Kinesiology of the musculoskeletal system" (Donald A. Neumann) states glute activation during a squat for starters. Hamstring activation is minimal during a squat (Tesch, 1999) whilst adductor magnus contributes to hip extensor torque. Erector spinae torque is significantly diminished with proper technique.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

enosis 7 - box squats and powerlifting squats are different which it sounds like your explaining there...they shift the emphaise to a more hip dominant pattern but i'd still calss a squat as a quad dominant movement which is why a lot of powerlifters do them on a quad dominant day

swifty - i read a lot from various sites and authors

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_...ou_arent_getting_bigger_and_how_to_fix_it&cr=

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_...g_performance/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments&cr=

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_...rformance_repair/get_your_butt_in_gear_ii&cr=



if the glutes are activated in the first place then yes they will be used in any lower body movement, even rooting

what i'm saying is that they need to be activated first to fire when they are meant to

i'm not understating the prime movers at all they are obviously the engine room but the stabiliswers are the petrol, without it they just won't go as hard as they could with them

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Hamstring activation is minimal during a squat (Tesch, 1999)

This depends on the manner of squat, squat depth and individual variation. Once you squat below parallel, hamstring activation is increased significantly - both concentrically (to assist hip extension), and isometrically (to stabilise the knee). The further down the back the bar is (ie low bar vs high bar) the greater hip torque is, and the greater hamstring recruitment.

While athletic individuals involved in the above studies might have perfectly functional hips, many individuals have inhibited glutes due to environmental factors, basically being sedentary which promotes tight hip flexors and anterior pelvic tilt.

As cptkirk correctly points out, this could lead to synergestic dominance, whereby the hamstrings take over the role the glutes are meant to play.

Glutes SHOULD be the prime mover in squats, but whether by poor technique or poor biomechanics, very often they are not.

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

enosis 7 - box squats and powerlifting squats are different which it sounds like your explaining there...they shift the emphaise to a more hip dominant pattern but i'd still calss a squat as a quad dominant movement which is why a lot of powerlifters do them on a quad dominant day

I'll declare I'm a powerlifter and I haven't heard of any powerlifting program which has a quad dominant day, or any muscle group day for that matter.

Most of the classic programs have a squat day. The main accessory exercise for the squat we do is the glute-ham raise, because the squat (and the deadlift for that matter) absolutely a hip dominant movement. Sure, strong quads help (moreso in deadlift), but it's all in hips.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

describe high and low bar positioning for me please

i think i have a high bar positioning but never been shown

how would i know?

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

high bar = bar rests across the traps
low bar = bar is squeezed in between the spine of the scapula and the top of the posterior deltoids.

high bar is necessarily means knees more forward (in order to maintain balance), so it's more quad dominant
low bar means you can sit back more, meaning it's more hip dominant.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

i'd call squat day a quad dom day basically cos that's your focused lift for the day, yet followed as you posted with plenty of PC work, not that i'm a powerlifter but most programs these days are based off the west sife template anyway

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

i'm high bar then, i tend to go a little wider then hips not PL wide, but i can go right back without my knees coming forward from what i've taped and watched of myself

i don't think i could even get into the low bar position really to be honest

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

no they're not. Only in the US is westside that popular, and only in federations other than IPF (which is the purest and most popular worldwide).

Most powerlifting programs are based off linear periodisation or Russian volume training programs (eg Sheiko).

Unfortunately most people know powerlifting of what they've seen of westside, which usually favours ultra wide stance and high squatting from a monolift.

The reality is that this represents only a fraction of the true sport of powerlifting.

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

i'm high bar then, i tend to go a little wider then hips not PL wide, but i can go right back without my knees coming forward from what i've taped and watched of myself

As above, there is no such thing as powerlifting stance. Most of the world's best squatters in IPF have their heels a little wider than shoulder width.

i don't think i could even get into the low bar position really to be honest

most people cant' the first time they try, but the shoulders eventually become flexible enough to do it comfortably within a few weeks. It's good for shoulder flexibility.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

i swould say the point of west side is to train multiple qualitites at once yes? (ME, REP, DE) where sheiko (utter madness that s**t) and russian stuff is just lift until you can't anymore (frequency/volume based)

could be wrong, i'm an athletic lifter i suppose i could term it

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

I think you have west side nailed down.

Linear periodisation uses elements of that philosophy (eg high repetition/hypertrophy phases, speed lifts as active recovery and to work on power etc).

The point of Sheiko etc is to use lower intensity and higher volume. You manipulate the intensity/volume to create a training effect over a period of weeks and months. Typically you're lifting at less than 80% of your max so you're not training to failure at all - it's just massive cumulative fatigue from all the volume, ie lots and lots of sets. Then you have a strategic deload. Once you're rested, you'll hopefully be peaking for a competition at greater than the maxes you previously established.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

you done sheiko?

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Nah, what I'm doing (linear periodisation) is working for me, but I'd give it a go as it's very effective. It's pretty brutal though speaking to people who do it. Russian powerlifters are basically full time athletes (not to mention potential pharmaceutical assistance) so only the novice programs are actually doable for amatuers who have a life outside of lifting.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

using linear, don't you run the risk of losing various strength qualities from phase to phase? i suppose if you compete (do you) then you simply peak and go again....

 

[enosis7]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

you're right - you do temporarily lose strength at the start of a phase, but when in the earlier phases when the weight is light and reps are higher, you work on other qualities such as technique (which is necessary for bigger weights), endurance, mass and speed.

Also, the periodisation means less chance of overtraining, neural fatigue and injury because relative intensity is only really up for maybe 6 weeks at a time. This is why it's good for beginner and intermediate lifters, who don't really know how much volume and intensity their bodies can take.

If you train right earlier in the cycle, paying attention in particular to technique and speed, you will peak for competition higher than the previous cycle.

Pure linear periodisation doesn't work well for bench press - you detrain too quickly and can usually tolerate higher intensity, so you have lots of smaller cycles to keep the progress up.

The easiest way to think of linear periodisation is one step back, two steps forward.

 

[Brad Goodman]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

How bout the back?

Someone else kick this one off...I'd like to see what others say first before I pipe up.

Go for it.

Chin-ups?

(overhand grip)

 

[Mofra]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

best vert pull - chin ups, pull ups, semi supinated chin ups...if you can do these then there's really no need for pulldowns...reps are generally 3 - 8 depending on what i'm after

cpt, one quick question.

For someone doing all body workouts, would you still advocate overgrip pullups over lat pulldowns if they are going to be doing bicep work afterwards? I tend to be able to do 3 sets of 12-15 overgrasp chin ups (ex military so copped plenty of these) in a session, or 20-22 until failure for a single set. This tends to kill the arms a fair bit too, although with that alone I'm not sure I'd be getting an adquate bicep workout.

I know pulldowns do have a bicep component, but they tend to isolate the lats a little more (or maybe it's just my technique)

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

yep

chin ups work the lats in a stretched position at the bottom which is why you need to go all the way down and the lower trps/depressing muscles at the top which is why you need to get all the way over the bar with your chin

pull ups work the lats more for width and the rear dlets if you keep your chest up, lower back arched and elbows back