West Coast vs Collingwood

[Slax]

All extra disposals means is that those players spend far more time on ball and have an opportunity to gather more possessions - completely arbitrary stat and by itself means nothing...

Seriously.. goals as an arbitrary stat ... seriously meaningless...

If contested possessions and clearance don't mean anything in judging the worth of a ruckman then goals definitely don't.

As I said not all ruckman rest in the forward line, so trying to say that one who rests up forward is better than one who rests down back purely on the fact of who kicks more goals is the dumbest comparison you can make.

So on that basis Richmond should of told Rance to pack his bags because he doesn't kick goals.

 

[robertg22]

Naitanui is obviously a better ruckman than Grundy at the moment. But he is 4 years older than him and we all know that ruckmen take time to mature and develop their games.

At 21, Naitanui averaged 13 touches & 20 hitouts per game. Grundy is averaging 16 & 24 this year.

As for Witts vs Lycett who are the same age - Witts averaging 0.1 less touches per game and 8 extra hitouts.

Witts vs Sinclair is reasonably close, Sinclair gets more of the ball but Witts more hitouts.

Given the thread is about who has the better future, it's not inconceivable to think that our ruck division could be ahead in the not too distant future.

 

[DuckToaster]

West coast are ahead of Collingwood at the moment. West Coast have their structure all sorted out and good players on every line. Collingwood are still working on their structure and rely too much on forward pressure to generate repetitive turn overs in tight games rather then clean ball movement and the ability to control the game and keep possession going forward as they're still developing that aspect of the game. This was noticeable against Freo in the 4th quarter. Forward pressure doesn't mean anything if the team your playing with can control the ball.

I couldn't tell you who will win though, both sides have a huge gap between their best and their worst football. The side that turns up on the day will win.

 

[Spoken4]

Naitanui at the moment is much better than Cox even at his best.

I see you've been drinking the bath water again.

 

[Dagless]

Naitanui is obviously a better ruckman than Grundy at the moment. But he is 4 years older than him and we all know that ruckmen take time to mature and develop their games.

At 21, Naitanui averaged 13 touches & 20 hitouts per game. Grundy is averaging 16 & 24 this year.

As for Witts vs Lycett who are the same age - Witts averaging 0.1 less touches per game and 8 extra hitouts.

Witts vs Sinclair is reasonably close, Sinclair gets more of the ball but Witts more hitouts.

Given the thread is about who has the better future, it's not inconceivable to think that our ruck division could be ahead in the not too distant future.

At 21, Nic Nat was the number 2 ruckman to Dean Cox (Who averaged 28.6 Hitouts per game), rotating play and ToG. His role when not at the ruck taps is highlighted by clearance volume (90, highest total of any ruckman during the year) and 91 1%ers, third in ruckman behind Luey and Ryder at 4p/g. 28 scorings shots for 18.10.

Grundy comparatively as the number one ruck, should have higher rucking totals. Currently running at 14 1%ers for 1.4 p/g (Which is indicative of role within team) with 6 scoring shots for the year at 4.2. Clearances at 38, which is more than decent at the moment.

The stream of thought also seems to suggest that Nic is maxed out whilst the Collingwood duo will only get better, when his health has let him down to this point and I'm of the opinion that he's hardly maxed out. As said, ruckmen take plenty of time to take the final steps.

Given 4 years isn't that long in the context of careers at this relatively young age, I simply think that it's pretty clear that Nat is the best ruckman of the lot with upside at the moment, and there's not a tonne to suggest otherwise other than extrapolation of Collingwood performance whilst suggesting WC will remain static. Given that I think the gap will remain, it comes down to how big and whether that's covered by the second ruck position. Whilst I think the WC duo are being a bit underrated, I also think it's fair enough as it stands.

Sinclair looks much more limited from an athletic/upside PoV, but he's a go-getter who is never afraid to implant himself into a game through sheer desire. Lycett has had a bad year but was one of the more talked up potential movers from the WC, back to Port. All upside, but doesn't play with any grunt so he's getting left out of the team.

Impact wise, I think Naita's best this year outstrips anything I ever saw from Cox, even if the stats don't reflect that. Hardly means he's better than Cox over the course of his career, but never stop hyperbole getting in the way of a valid discussion.....

 

[robertg22]

Grundy comparatively as the number one ruck, should have higher rucking totals. Currently running at 14 1%ers for 1.4 p/g (Which is indicative of role within team) with 6 scoring shots for the year at 4.2. Clearances at 38, which is more than decent at the moment.

Grundy is getting the same clearances per game despite this though. Also more tackles per game, if that means anything. Time on ground numbers are almost identical - 80.3% to Grundy, 79% to NN.

Grundy's not impacting the scoreboard enough though, that's his (and Witts') biggest area for improvement.

 

[Dagless]

Grundy is getting the same clearances per game despite this though. Also more tackles per game, if that means anything. Time on ground numbers are almost identical - 80.3% to Grundy, 79% to NN.

Grundy's not impacting the scoreboard enough though, that's his (and Witts') biggest area for improvement.

ToG is more indicative of general expectations with a second rotating ruck if anything. I would argue that more of Grundy's 80% is made up of first rucking time vs Nat's 79%, whilst they just spend more time on the bench.

I think the tackling stat for both players (Which are roughly the same, .6 tackles per game difference isn't completely substantial) is based on contemporary team structures than anything. Especially how well drilled the Pies are in the middle. Our forward line pressure wasn't what it currently is, and Nat's scoring output is indicative of the time he spent in the forward line.

I like Grundy though, but we will see if he backs up this year with an AA (Cue 'Naita didn't deserve it tho'!)

 

[robertg22]

ToG is more indicative of general expectations with a second rotating ruck if anything. I would argue that more of Grundy's 80% is made up of first rucking time vs Nat's 79%, whilst they just spend more time on the bench.

I think the tackling stat for both players (Which are roughly the same, .6 tackles per game difference isn't completely substantial) is based on contemporary team structures than anything. Especially how well drilled the Pies are in the middle. Our forward line pressure wasn't what it currently is, and Nat's scoring output is indicative of the time he spent in the forward line.

I like Grundy though, but we will see if he backs up this year with an AA (Cue 'Naita didn't deserve it tho'!)

Yep, both are great tacklers for their position. Grundy a star of the future (and a very solid player now, I might add). He was playing some great footy before his unfortunate injury. Will be back next week though.

 

[JackOutback]

Well, this thread escalated quickly.

Naita is comfortably ahead of Grundy and Witts and comfortably off Cox's best, which came over a sustained period of time.

 

[Oneiros]

All that shows is that NN rests in the forward line, nothing else, completely arbitrary stat that by itself means nothing.

Try a little bit harder to come up with a valid comparison. Maybe look at disposals, disposal efficiency, etc.

Well then isn't that his around the ground impact? And a significant one, too, would put him in the top 5 goalscorers for a lot of clubs.

 

[Oneiros]

Was excited about this game, now numb.
He did play for Collingwood.

Wonder if the two clubs will do anything special for the game, given he played for Collingwood and spent several years as an assistant coach to Woosha.

 

[Bluke]

Gaff is not an elite mid so it would be a long stretch to put him in the top 10. He might be in good form now but how was he last year? And the year prior?

Pretty sure he was top 5 in the BnF champ

 

[jod23]

I wont get into the whole Collingwood v WC debate.

But I will touch on the ruck issue.

NN is great but not Cox. WC fans saying NN is better or has more impact are kidding themselves. NN though does still have so much improvement left in him, he hasnt maxed out at all yet.

Secondly, our ruck division shits all over Collingwood's. Particularly because of NN who is pretty much the best ruckman in the competition. Only fools who dont understand the game look at stats as a measure. Watch games, watch how Natanui can turn a game in a 5 min spell. His brilliance and ability to stamp himself on games goes far beyond the stat sheet.

He won us the game against Richmond a few weeks ago with a 10 minute spell of sheer dominance.

 

[Collingwoodity]

I wont get into the whole Collingwood v WC debate.

But I will touch on the ruck issue.

NN is great but not Cox. WC fans saying NN is better or has more impact are kidding themselves. NN though does still have so much improvement left in him, he hasnt maxed out at all yet.

Secondly, our ruck division shits all over Collingwood's. Particularly because of NN who is pretty much the best ruckman in the competition. Only fools who dont understand the game look at stats as a measure. Watch games, watch how Natanui can turn a game in a 5 min spell. His brilliance and ability to stamp himself on games goes far beyond the stat sheet.

He won us the game against Richmond a few weeks ago with a 10 minute spell of sheer dominance.

Your first ruck is better than either of our rucks.

Saying that your whole ruck division shits on our whole ruck division is going too far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kerrazy]

Wits and Grundy are very good players. I think west coasts ruck division is better, but not by much.

 

[Underdog]

Naitanui started having more impact in the ruck than Cox around 2011 or so. It'd be interesting to see how breakdowns on team percentage when each rucked.

I wouldn't be making statements about his best being better than Cox but the above is what it is.

Naitanui is comfortably better in tap work, inside ability and pressure. They're quite similar in forward line impact. Cox was comfortably better at providing a link in transition and dropping behind the ball.

 

[juss]

Cox was probably the best ruck I remember seeing, you cant compare NN to him thats just taking the piss.

 

[Stifler's mom]

NN has had a great month or so and is a terrific ruckman.

But please let's not get hysterical. He smashed Maric and Jake Carlisle in his last two games.

Cut the crap about him being better than Cox.

 

[robertg22]

I wont get into the whole Collingwood v WC debate.

our ruck division shits all over Collingwood's.

Right.

 

[Woobla Stainz]

i really rate Grundy but you can not use stats only to compare him and Nic, there is a difference between a normal hitout and a Naitanui hitout which is pretty much like a handball to a free player.

the Naitanui to Shuey burst out of the centre is a thing of beauty.

 

[Underdog]

Cut the crap about him being better than Cox.

I tend to think some are perhaps wording what I said above poorly rather than suggesting that Cox was inferior to Naitanui across his whole career. Even if someone did think that, it's far too early to make that call due to Cox's longevity.

For about 4 years of Naitanui's early career (and Cox's late career), Naitanui had more impact in the ruck than Cox. That's as much as you can compare them.

 

[Pendles!]

As good as Naitanui could well be, I'll take Grundy every day of the week. Has the mongrel and desire in him you need from a number 1 ruck. Better around the ground also imo.

 

[Forward Press]

As good as Naitanui could well be, I'll take Grundy every day of the week. Has the mongrel and desire in him you need from a number 1 ruck. Better around the ground also imo.

I understand your reasons for picking your own young ruckman, but your post is implying Naitanui has no mongrel or desire which is just plain wrong.

 

[Pendles!]

I understand your reasons for picking your own young ruckman, but your post is implying Naitanui has no mongrel or desire which is just plain wrong.

Sorry, he definitely has the desire as shown by his manic pressure around contests but I want my number 1 ruck to be more physical and aggressive which I see Grundy as being the better out of the two at.

 

[Forward Press]

Sorry, he definitely has the desire as shown by his manic pressure around contests but I want my number 1 ruck to be more physical and aggressive which I see Grundy as being the better out of the two at.

I think Naitanui definitely has the mongrel as he hits contests hard (look at his contested possession numbers), but I won't begrudge your opinion on Grundy's physicality or aggression, since he definitely has that in spades.