Which States are and aren't pulling their weight?

[western royboy]

Because I had nothing better to do i randomly analysed the last weeks Shield teams together with the World Cup squad to see what their state of origin was. Not surprisingly NSW came out on top with just under a third of the group. Producing a third of the group or double the expectation on % highlights their dominance of their system, particularly when seven of the fifteen man World Cup Squad are from NSW.

Victoria, Qld and WA were all around the mark on expected %, what was surprising is that the Vics have 13 players in the Shield system, yet only 5 play for Victoria!

Tas and SA are almost half of what you would expect on normal % - Tas is acceptable on population, SA explains why it's been near the bottom of the table for the majority of the last ten years.

 

[The_Reaper]

On- Victoria I did a basic list of every player who had played test cricket since the turn of the century.

On the number of players Victoria does reasonaly well- but Warne and Siddle were the only two that really had extended test careers.
This suggests to me that whilst Victoria is still producing it's share of first class cricketers but for some reason is not producing test cricketers. To be fair Hodge was pretty unlucky not to play more test cricket and Pattinson is clearly test class, but Victoria are still underperforming in terms of producing test cricketers.

Even South Australia had Lehmann, Gillespie and Harris in that timeframe.

New South Wales performed extremely well in terms of both producing test players and in terms of producing players with extended test careers. So not only is New South Wales producing a third of our first class cricketers (as one would expect given their share of the population), their cricketers are more developed than players in other states

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Pulling their weight: NSW. They've carried Australian cricket.

 

[The Speaker]

Victoria should be producing Test players close to the level NSW does. The fact that the gap is so large suggests something seriously wrong.

Ditto with SA, who should be close to WA, and are not.

Tassie probably punches above its weight.

 

[The_Reaper]

I'd suggest that WA and QLD are performing at the level they should and both are set to have several internationals in the near future. Tasmania are punching a bit above their weight but their population is just too small for this to be noticeable.

New South Wales is carrying the country.

And Victoria and South Australia are under performing.

Victoria should be producing more test players than Queensland and Western Australia and only one Victorian (Brad Hodge, nearly a decade ago) has scored a test century since the turn of the millennium.

 

[The_Reaper]

Did some further work on this

Cricket SOO 
All Players to play Shield or Test Cricket in 2014/15 Season

#  State                 Pop     %Pop   Players %Players  Mat*  %Mat
1. ACT                  382,900   1.65%       6    4.62%   26    3.94%
2. New South Wales    7,439,200  32.02%      32   24.62%  177   26.82%
3. Northern Territory   241,800   1.04%       2    1.54%    4    0.61%
4. Queensland         4,676,400  20.13%      25   19.23%  104   15.76%
5. South Australia    1,674,700   7.21%      11    8.46%   57    8.64%
6. Tasmania             513,400   2.21%      12    9.23%   61    9.24%
7. Victoria           5,768,600  24.83%      23   17.69%  116   17.58%
8. Western Australia  2,535,700  10.91%      16   12.31%   95   14.39%
9. International         N/A     N/A          3    2.31%   20    3.03%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            130           660

*Shield Matches only


Shield Team
#  Shield Team      Players  ACT NSW NT QLD SA TAS VIC WA INT  
1. NSW Blues             24    3  19  -   1  -   -   1  -   0
2. QLD Bulls             27    1   2  1  20  2   -   -  -   1
3. SA Redbacks           20    1   4  1   -  9   -   4  -   1
4. TAS Tigers            20    -   3  -   2  -  11   4  -   -
5. VIC Bushies           20    -   3  -   -  -   1  12  3   1
6. WA Warriors           19    1   1  -   2  -   -   2 13   -
-------------------------------------------------------------
                        130    6  32  2  25 11  12  23 16   3

Obviously having six provincial sides distorts this and the number of Queenslanders is inflated by Queensland using 27 players this season.

Edit: Moved WER Somerville from international to NSW

 

[The_Reaper]

And the raw data

ACT
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. RGL Carters          ACT     NSW Blues    9    Top Order Bat/Wicketkeeper
2. NM Lyon              ACT     NSW Blues    7    Spin Bowler
3. BJ Haddin            ACT     NSW Blues    1    Wicketkeeper
4. JS Floros            ACT     QLD Bulls    2    Allrounder
5. AI Ross              ACT     SA Redbacks  3    Middle Order Bat
6. JP Behrendorff       ACT     WA Warriors  4    Fast Bowler

New South Wales 
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. JR Hazlewood         NSW     NSW Blues    1    Fast Bowler
2. NJ Maddinson         NSW     NSW Blues    7    Top Order Bat
3. NCR Larkin           NSW     NSW Blues    4    Top Order Bat
4. SNJ O'Keefe          NSW     NSW Blues    9    Spin Bowler
5. SO Henry             NSW     NSW Blues   10    Top Order Bat
6. BJ Rohrer            NSW     NSW Blues    3    Middle Order Bat
7. MC Henriques         NSW     NSW Blues    5    Allrounder
8. KR Patterson         NSW     NSW Blues    8    Middle Order Bat
9. GS Sandhu            NSW     NSW Blues    8    Fast Bowler
10.DP Hughes            NSW     NSW Blues    1    Middle Order Bat
11.MA Starc             NSW     NSW Blues    3    Fast Bowler
12.SA Abbott            NSW     NSW Blues    8    Fast Bowler
13.JK Lalor             NSW     NSW Blues    2    Fast Bowler
14.DE Bollinger         NSW     NSW Blues    8    Fast Bowler
15.P Jackson            NSW     NSW Blues    1    Spin Bowler
16.DA Warner            NSW     NSW Blues    1    Top Order Bat
17.MJ Clarke            NSW     NSW Blues    0    Middle Order Bat
18.SPD Smith            NSW     NSW Blues    0    Top Order Bat
19.PJ Forrest           NSW     QLD Bulls   10    Top Order Bat
20.Usman Khawaja        NSW     QLD Bulls    2    Top Order Bat
21.PJ Hughes            NSW     SA Redbacks  3    Top Order Bat
22.TLW Cooper           NSW     SA Redbacks 10    Middle Order Bat
23.A Zampa              NSW     SA Redbacks  9    Spin Bowler
24.JM Mennie            NSW     SA Redbacks  9    Fast Bowler
25.EJM Cowan            NSW     TAS Tigers   9    Top Order Bat
26.JC Silk              NSW     TAS Tigers  10    Top Order Bat
27.JM Bird              NSW     TAS Tigers   7    Fast Bowler
28.DT Christian         NSW     VIC Bushies  9    Allrounder
29.JW Hastings          NSW     VIC Bushies  4    Fast Bowler
30.CP Tremain           NSW     VIC Bushies  7    Fast Bowler
31.MG Hogan             NSW     WA Warriors  6    Fast Bowler
32.WER Somerville       NSW     NSW Blues    3    Top Order Bat

Northern Territory
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. RN Le Loux           NT      QLD Bulls    1    Spin Bowler
2. KW Richardson        NT      SA Redbacks  3    Fast Bowler

Queensland
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. SR Watson            QLD     NSW Blues    1    Allrounder
2. CA Lynn              QLD     QLD Bulls    5    Top Order Bat
3. JA Burns             QLD     QLD Bulls   10    Top Order Bat
4. NG Stevens           QLD     QLD Bulls    2    Middle Order Bat
5. CD Hartley           QLD     QLD Bulls   10    Wicketkeeper
6. JD Wildemuth         QLD     QLD Bulls    2    Allrounder
7. GD Moller            QLD     QLD Bulls    2    Top Order Bat/Wicketkeeper
8. JR Hopes             QLD     QLD Bulls    9    Allrounder
9. NJ Reardon           QLD     QLD Bulls    3    Middle Order Bat
10.S Milenko            QLD     QLD Bulls    3    Allrounder
11.AC McDermott         QLD     QLD Bulls    1    Fast Bowler
12.M Labuschagne        QLD     QLD Bulls    5    Top Order Bat
13.LW Feldman           QLD     QLD Bulls    5    Fast Bowler
14.CJ Boyce             QLD     QLD Bulls    8    Spin Bowler
15.MT Steketee          QLD     QLD Bulls    3    Fast Bowler
16.MA Philipson         QLD     QLD Bulls    4    Middle Order Bat
17.BCJ Cutting          QLD     QLD Bulls    5    Fast Bowler
18.MG Neser             QLD     QLD Bulls    1    Allrounder
19.CG Brimblecombe      QLD     QLD Bulls    1    Spin Bowler
20.MT Renshaw           QLD     QLD Bulls    1    Top Order Bat
21.BR McDermott         QLD     QLD Bulls    1    Wicketkeeper
22.BR Dunk              QLD     TAS Tigers   7    Top Order Bat/Wicketkeeper
23.DP Michael           QLD     TAS Tigers   6    Top Order Bat
24.NJ Rimmington        QLD     WA Warriors  9    Fast Bowler
25.MG Johnson           QLD     WA Warriors  0    Fast Bowler

South Australia
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. RJ Harris            SA      QLD Bulls    2    Fast Bowler
2. PR George            SA      QLD Bulls    7    Fast Bowler
3. CJ Ferguson          SA      SA Redbacks 10    Top Order Bat
4. MJ Cosgrove          SA      SA Redbacks  9    Top Order Bat
5. TM Head              SA      SA Redbacks 10    Middle Order Bat
6. J Lehmann            SA      SA Redbacks  2    Middle Order Bat
7. NJ Benton            SA      SA Redbacks  1    Fast Bowler
8. KR Smith             SA      SA Redbacks  5    Top Order Bat
9. CJ Sayers            SA      SA Redbacks  5    Fast Bowler
10.GD Putland           SA      SA Redbacks  5    Fast Bowler
11.SJ Raphael           SA      SA Redbacks  1    Top Order Bat

Tasmania
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. JP Faulkner          TAS     TAS Tigers   3    Allrounder
2. JW Wells             TAS     TAS Tigers   6    Middle Order Bat
3. GJ Bailey            TAS     TAS Tigers   3    Middle Order Bat
4. BJ Webster           TAS     TAS Tigers   4    Middle Order Bat
5. AJ Doolan            TAS     TAS Tigers   9    Top Order Bat
6. BW Hilfenhaus        TAS     TAS Tigers   5    Fast Bowler
7. TD Paine             TAS     TAS Tigers   8    Wicketkeeper
8. XJ Doherty           TAS     TAS Tigers   4    Spin Bowler
9. LR Butterworth       TAS     TAS Tigers   2    Allrounder
10.SL Rainbird          TAS     TAS Tigers   7    Fast Bowler
11.HP Kingston          TAS     TAS Tigers   2    Fast Bowler
12.MS Wade              TAS     VIC Bushies  8    Wicketkeeper

Victoria
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. PM Nevill            VIC     NSW Blues   10    Wicketkeeper
2. AB McDonald          VIC     SA Redbacks  2    Allrounder
3. TL Lawford           VIC     SA Redbacks  3    Fastbowler
4. TP Ludeman           VIC     SA Redbacks 10    Wicketkeeper
5. DJ Worrall           VIC     SA Redbacks  5    Fastbowler
6. EP Gulbis            VIC     TAS Tigers   3    Allrounder
7. CA Rose              VIC     TAS Tigers   4    Spin Bowler
8. AL Fekete            VIC     TAS Tigers  10    Fastbowler
9. MW Hill              VIC     TAS Tigers   1    Top Order Bat
10.JM Holland           VIC     VIC Bushies  3    Spin Bowler
11.PSP Handscomb        VIC     VIC Bishies  9    Middle Order Bat/Wicketkeeper
12.AJ Finch             VIC     VIC Bushies  2    Top Order Bat
13.RJ Quiney            VIC     VIC Bushies 10    Top Order Bat
14.AR Keath             VIC     VIC Bushies  1    Middle Order Bat
15.CL White             VIC     VIC Bushies  5    Middle Order Bat
16.GJ Maxwell           VIC     VIC Bushies  2    Allrounder
17.JL Pattinson         VIC     VIC Bushies  2    Fast Bowler
18.DA King              VIC     VIC Bushies  2    Top Order Bat
19.PM Siddle            VIC     VIC Bushies  6    Fast Bowler
20.CJ McKay             VIC     VIC Bushies  1    Fast Bowler
21.SM Boland            VIC     VIC Bushies  7    Fast Bowler
22.M Klinger            VIC     WA Warriors 10    Top Order Bat
23.AC Agar              VIC     WA Warriors  8    Spin Bowler

Western Australia
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. DJ Hussey            WA      VIC Bushies  6    Middle Order Bat
2. MP Stoinis           WA      VIC Bushies  9    Allrounder
3. CJL Rogers           WA      VIC Bushies  7    Top Order Bat
4. AC Voges             WA      WA Warriors 10    Middle Order Bat
5. SE Marsh             WA      WA Warriors 10    Middle Order Bat
6. CT Bancroft          WA      WA Warriors 10    Top Order Bat
7. SM Whiteman          WA      WA Warriors 10    Wicketkeeper
8. MS Harris            WA      WA Warriors  9    Top Order Bat
9. NM Coulter-Nile      WA      WA Warriors  5    Fast Bowler
10.TM Beaton            WA      WA Warriors  3    Middle Order Bat
11.AJ Tye               WA      WA Warriors  4    Fast Bowler
12.AJ Turner            WA      WA Warriors  1    Middle Order Bat
13.SP Mackin            WA      WA Warriors  6    Fast Bowler
14.RM Duffield          WA      WA Warriors  1    Fast Bowler
15.MR Marsh             WA      WA Warriors  1    Allrounder
16.D Moody              WA      WA Warriors  3    Fast Bowler

Overseas
#  Player               SOO     Team       Mat    Type
1. CR Hemphrey          ENG     QLD Bulls    5    Top Order Bat
2. J Botha              RSA     SA Redbacks  5    Allrounder
3. Fawad Ahmed          PAK     VIC Bushies 10    Spin Bowler

 

[Aussie_boy]

Bit picky but shouldn't Labuschagne be considered South African? Good work though, pretty interesting

 

[The_Reaper]

Bit picky but shouldn't Labuschagne be considered South African? Good work though, pretty interesting

Represented Queensland at U17 and U19 level

 

[Aussie_boy]

Represented Queensland at U17 and U19 level

Ah right, wasn't sure how you were determining state.

 

[The Passenger]

Represented Queensland at U17 and U19 level

On that basis Will Somerville should be NSW. I played junior cricket with and against him from u/12's through to about u/19's so he is definitely a product of the NSW system.

It was an interesting read, particularly that NSW was well below on % players v % population but I guess it's kinda distorted by the fact Tasmania has such a small population yet fields a shield team.

 

[The_Reaper]

On that basis Will Somerville should be NSW. I played junior cricket with and against him from u/12's through to about u/19's so he is definitely a product of the NSW system.

It was an interesting read, particularly that NSW was well below on % players v % population but I guess it's kinda distorted by the fact Tasmania has such a small population yet fields a shield team.

I've made that change.

I also think that at some point there is a diminishing return on a higher population.

Have a look at Western Australia - a population of 2.5 million but has no difficulties finding eleven shield standard players.
New South Wales has more shield standard players but other states are only going to import players if they're deficient in a certain area so New South Wales can't possibly meet it's per capita proportion.

When we go up to test level however, NSW does provide more than it's per capita share of players.

 

[The_Reaper]

This is a WA State of Origin team

WA SOO Team

#  Player            Age Bat Bwl Mat Runs  HS    Ave   100 50 Wkts BBI    BBM    Ave   5i 10m Ct St
1. CJL Rogers         37 LHB LS    7  390  107   48.75   1  3    - -/---  -/---  --.--  -   -   1 0
2. CT Bancroft        22 RHB ---  10  803  211   47.23   3  2    - -/---  -/---  --.--  -   -  15 0
3. MP Stoinis         25 RHB RM    9  730   99   52.14   0  9    7 3/27   3/27   35.14  0   0   0 0
4. AC Voges*          35 RHB SLA  10 1215  249  101.25   5  5    2 2/15   2/32   51.50  0   0  15 0
5. SE Marsh           31 LHB SLA  10  700  164*  70.00   3  2    - -/---  -/---  --.--  -   -  14 0
6. DJ Hussey          37 RHB OS    6  462  142   66.00   2  1    1 1/16   1/16   79.00  0   0  12 0
7. SM Whiteman+       23 LHB ---  10  314  120   28.54   1  1    - -/---  -/---  --.--  -   -  38 0
8. NM Coulter-Nile    27 RHB RF    5   90   64   15.00   0  1   14 3/34   4/80   28.00  0   0   2 0
9. AJ Tye             28 RHB RMF   4   19   10    6.33   0  0   11 3/47   4/101  30.54  0   0   1 0
10.SP Mackin          22 RHB RFM   6   10    9    2.00   0  0   20 4/36   8/90   27.75  0   0   4 0
11.D Moody            19 RHB RM    3    2    1*   -.--   0  0   10 4/60   7/82   29.60  0   0   0 0

 

[The_Reaper]

And one more table that I have done.

Shield Team and Domestic Players

#  Shield Team      Players HState* %HState Matches %HSMat
1. NSW Blues             24     22   91.67%      99 90.00%
2. QLD Bulls             27     20   74.07%      81 73.64%
3. SA Redbacks           20     10   50.00%      51 46.36%
4. TAS Tigers            20     11   55.00%      53 48.18%
5. VIC Bushies           20     12   60.00%      50 45.45%
6. WA Warriors           19     13   68.42%      73 66.36%


*ACT counted as NSW and NT counted as SA

The 11 NSW games played by imports are Peter Nevill (10) and Shane Watson (1)

Tasmania and to a lesser extent South Australia need to import players due to their smaller populations.

WA and QLD seem about right.

Interestingly Victoria has the lowest percentage of games played by locally produced players. This is one of the reasons why Victoria have been a dominant force over the last decade at domestic level but it would also explain why Victoria isn't producing test players- because Victoria itself isn't playing Victorian cricketers.

 

[eddiesmith]

But its not like importing players is a bad thing

Matthew Wade came to Victoria because he wouldn't get a game ahead of Tim Paine, went on to play for Australia

Chris Rogers came because he lost his CA contract as WA wouldn't pick him in one dayers, won Victorias OD player of the year award and went on to have a decent test career after moving.

David Hussey couldn't get a game for WA, been one of Victorias best players over the last 10-12 years

Marcus Stoinis came over to get more opportunities and is looking a good player for the future

Its interesting though and you look at the list of Victorian players at other states, none have gone on to become great players. Klinger has continued to be what was expected, a good domestic player but never going to play higher. A couple of keepers have looked good but are they any better than Wade? Not so sure. Then there is a few who played a few games, never looked like kicking on and have gone to smaller states to forge a longer domestic career.

For all the importing and apparent losses to other states, there is no one who you turn around and say, I really wish we had kept them

 

[western royboy]

But its not like importing players is a bad thing

Matthew Wade came to Victoria because he wouldn't get a game ahead of Tim Paine, went on to play for Australia

Chris Rogers came because he lost his CA contract as WA wouldn't pick him in one dayers, won Victorias OD player of the year award and went on to have a decent test career after moving.

David Hussey couldn't get a game for WA, been one of Victorias best players over the last 10-12 years

Marcus Stoinis came over to get more opportunities and is looking a good player for the future

Its interesting though and you look at the list of Victorian players at other states, none have gone on to become great players. Klinger has continued to be what was expected, a good domestic player but never going to play higher. A couple of keepers have looked good but are they any better than Wade? Not so sure. Then there is a few who played a few games, never looked like kicking on and have gone to smaller states to forge a longer domestic career.

For all the importing and apparent losses to other states, there is no one who you turn around and say, I really wish we had kept them

Agreed, personally I don't agree with the "we lose all or best talent to the AFL" argument - which is popular. So why are we not producing anywhere near enough top end talent. It's fine to more than your share, but those stats don't say a lot for the development of talent.

 

[The_Reaper]

But its not like importing players is a bad thing

Matthew Wade came to Victoria because he wouldn't get a game ahead of Tim Paine, went on to play for Australia

Chris Rogers came because he lost his CA contract as WA wouldn't pick him in one dayers, won Victorias OD player of the year award and went on to have a decent test career after moving.

David Hussey couldn't get a game for WA, been one of Victorias best players over the last 10-12 years

Marcus Stoinis came over to get more opportunities and is looking a good player for the future

Its interesting though and you look at the list of Victorian players at other states, none have gone on to become great players. Klinger has continued to be what was expected, a good domestic player but never going to play higher. A couple of keepers have looked good but are they any better than Wade? Not so sure. Then there is a few who played a few games, never looked like kicking on and have gone to smaller states to forge a longer domestic career.

For all the importing and apparent losses to other states, there is no one who you turn around and say, I really wish we had kept them

But what does it indicate about Victorian cricket?

It suggests to me that there is less talent coming through the Victorian system than there should be, which is getting reflected when it comes to test players.

 

[The Speaker]

Its interesting though and you look at the list of Victorian players at other states, none have gone on to become great players.

So if Victoria doesn't have many Test players, is importing half its first XI and players leaving the state don't go on to be great, what exactly is CV doing?

 

[western royboy]

So if Victoria doesn't have many Test players, is importing half its first XI and players leaving the state don't go on to be great, what exactly is CV doing?

My answer is not for publication on this forum due to decency standards.

 

[MisterMarcus]

And one more table that I have done.

Shield Team and Domestic Players

#  Shield Team      Players HState* %HState Matches %HSMat
1. NSW Blues             24     22   91.67%      99 90.00%
2. QLD Bulls             27     20   74.07%      81 73.64%
3. SA Redbacks           20     10   50.00%      51 46.36%
4. TAS Tigers            20     11   55.00%      53 48.18%
5. VIC Bushies           20     12   60.00%      50 45.45%
6. WA Warriors           19     13   68.42%      73 66.36%


*ACT counted as NSW and NT counted as SA

The 11 NSW games played by imports are Peter Nevill (10) and Shane Watson (1)

Tasmania and to a lesser extent South Australia need to import players due to their smaller populations.

WA and QLD seem about right.

Interestingly Victoria has the lowest percentage of games played by locally produced players. This is one of the reasons why Victoria have been a dominant force over the last decade at domestic level but it would also explain why Victoria isn't producing test players- because Victoria itself isn't playing Victorian cricketers.

Carters is Victorian, did you overlook him when calculating the NSW data?

EDIT: He's "from" Canberra but his home cricket state was Victoria....

 

[The_Reaper]

Carters is Victorian, did you overlook him when calculating the NSW data?

Canberra is not in Victoria

 

[The Speaker]

Carters is Victorian, did you overlook him when calculating the NSW data?

EDIT: He's "from" Canberra but his home cricket state was Victoria....

He played for the ACT u17s and u19s.

Safe to say he is a product of their system, not Victoria's.

 

[The_Reaper]

Carters is Victorian, did you overlook him when calculating the NSW data?

EDIT: He's "from" Canberra but his home cricket state was Victoria....

His home cricket state was not Victoria.

He played U17s and U19s for ACT and then got recruited by Victoria because the ACT doesn't have a shield team.

He's as Victorian as Agar and Behrendorff are Western Australian

 

[The_Reaper]

The numbers from New South Wales do indicate that there may be a case for an ACT (and southern NSW) Shield team

 

[western royboy]

The numbers from New South Wales do indicate that there may be a case for an ACT (and southern NSW) Shield team

To be fair most would fall under the NSW system first and foremost, Haddin was from Gundagai from memory, NSW is the right classification in this instance.