Opinion Why the AFL should say sorry to Fitzroy

[Maroon Goon]

Maybe if they put Fitzroy's name on the premiership cup they would get me and start recognizing Fitzroy's records not Brisbane Bears 1987 records for the club or start afresh 1997. How can they count the bears records against Fitzroy it sounds a little odd doesn't it.

I don't think it really matters mate. Could you honestly tell me Any of this is going to happen anyway.. This whole story is just a media rehash of the same story that was written a year or two back. As a matter of fact i think my old man still has the paper clipping somewhere to prove it.

 

[smy1305]

Just to clarify, I am referring to ALL HOME GAMES. I suspect you are referring to home games at the Junction Oval only. Most clubs played a couple of home matches at Waverley/MCG back then. These have to be included for a true comparison...

Fitzroy's 11 home matches, along with the other clubs:

1983 average home game (ALL HOME GAMES) attendances:

Fitzroy - 19102
Geelong - 19066
Hawthorn - 20202
North Melbourne - 18850
Footscray - 18961
St Kilda - 20189

Its in black and white- no matter how you try and twist and turn it. These figures, cleary show, Fitzroy more than held their own for home attendances in 1983.

Again, Ill focus on North- always compared to Fitzroy going back to the 60s. Ironically, Fitzroy and North had similar seasons in 1983 and thus it gives a very true comparison...

Point taken- St Kilda had great attendances for home matches, given their useless team.

But, as I stated, my only interest is comparing us to North Melbourne and Footscray. St Kilda have always been a BIGGER club than us, North and Footscray.

Re your comments about Vic Park/Princes Park:

Victoria Park was an absolute disaster- certainly much worse than Princes Park. Management at the time, thought moving to Vic Park would make for easy access for our fans in the northern/eastern suburbs (as we know where most roys fans reside) due to train line etc.

Remembering we nearly went under in 1986 with Victoria Park as our home ground in 1985/1986.

You will find our crowds were higher at Princes Park than Victoria Park. Particularly in 1992 and 1993.

Princes Park- I understand a similar deal financially (perhaps slightly better) but the theory was exactly the same as Victoria Park - close to Fitzroy and our supporter base in the northern/eastern suburbs - without the BLACK AND WHITE COLLINGWOOD FEEL.

A great shame Elliott and Collo were arsehole landlords as I feel this ground certainly could have worked long term for us. I certainly enjoyed going their and I know a lot of other fans felt the same, unlike Vic Park.

Why compare us to North in the 90s? As I stated earlier, we were always considered on par with them (interms of size of club/support)- our overall support estimated at 200 000 in 1996 (as back to back wooden spooners) and North at 250 000 now (with 16 years more growth in support) with some Tassie fans, confirms this long held belief...

Note we also had more members than North in 1993 (just a few more).

Bottom line I think we would both agree, that, not having a true home base - unlike every other club, was the biggest factor in our ultimate demise and made the VFL's job from 1984 onwards to bring us down, a lot easier than any other club...

Victoria Park was the only place we started to make a buck - the decision to go to princess Park was a terrible one - we were done like a dinner by Carlton there. Yes it was convenient for all the eastern suburb people but no more so than getting to Vic Park but more importantly the deal we signed to made it impossible to make money whereas the Pies were very welcoming of us and wanted to make the agreement work.

I agree that the demise was hastened by not having a home base - when you had players who were given 30min notice on occasions as to where they were training on a Tuesday night, well thats just ridiculous. It actually sounds absurd in todays day and age doesn't it but we did have one of the better sides running around despite this - was incredible times looking back.

 

[Stocka]

As much as it was a great ground to watch football at, I can't imagine that I'll ever be able to forgive Carlton for screwing us over at Princes Park.

 

[Pacman82]

As much as it was a great ground to watch football at, I can't imagine that I'll ever be able to forgive Carlton for screwing us over at Princes Park.

I'll never understand why a proper stadium wasn't built in the "Fitzroy Gardens" area...probably coz of the w***er, beetnick, anti-sporting demography that resides in that zone.

Collingwood was nothing compared to us 100 years ago but their council donated them land and allowed them to build a fully operational stadium.

The greatest travisty atm is the fact that past Fitzroy players get no recognition for there achivements. It warants Affermative Action!!!!

 

[Stocka]

Do you mean Edinburgh Gardens or Fitzroy Gardens? I am pretty sure Fat Pizza has a bit of knowledge on why the Brunswick Street Oval ceased to be a viable option for Fitzroy (due to lack of council support or something along those lines).

I'm not sure that there were so many beatnik w***ers living in Fitzroy back in those days, but there was certainly an anti-football sentiment amongst the councillors if my memory is correct.

I tend to wonder why Fitzroy never managed to develop a base at the Sir Doug Nicholls Oval, with it's huge surrounds at the top of St. George's Road. Even as a training base with club headquarters it would have been good.

 

[Mr Ripper]

I think it was a quarry or a tip or something up until the 1980s!

 

[Pacman82]

Do you mean Edinburgh Gardens or Fitzroy Gardens?

Edinburgh Gardens rather. I can't help but to picture a world class stadium right in the middle of it. LOL

Someone should have twisted the councils arm, or we should have looked else where to start laying foundations.

 

[Stocka]

I think it was a quarry or a tip or something up until the 1980s!

A step up from the Western Oval then...

 

[smy1305]

I reckon ideal in todays life having the ground at Edinburgh. Stacks more X-gen types in the inner city if my mates are anything to go by. All reside in Fitzroy/Northcote/Thornbury/Clifton hill now after growing up in the eastern suburbs. Don't think a playing venue but just a club training base where the heart and soul of the club resides. Only 20 years too late!!

 

[Roylion]

Someone should have twisted the councils arm, or we should have looked else where to start laying foundations.

Unfortunately it was the Fitzroy Cricket Club that controlled the ground...not the football club. While the local council refused to spend any money on the ground, the far wealthier Fitzroy Cricket Club, also refused to spend any money.

Fitzroy Football Club paid the cricket club to use the ground and about a thousand cricket club members got into the ground for free every weekend to watch football.

The football club proposed a number of initiatives to try and stay at the BSO. They suggested that the Fitzroy Cricket Club and the Fitzroy Football Club form one club, which the cricket club rejected. An offer by Fitzroy to borrow $400,000 from the council to upgrade the ground was also rejected by the Cricket Club. The football club also wanted a forty year lease which was opposed, although the council had agreed to give them a 21 year lease with no funds fr improvement, which the football club found unacceptable.

After the football rooms were condemned by the local council health officer which made them unusable, Fitzroy made a number of approaches to share grounds with Northcote and Preston in the VFA. But these came to nothing.

Fitzroy would have moved to the Junction Oval for the 1967 season where the St Kilda Cricket Club wanted them as a tenant, but a large number of St Kilda Cricket Club members and supporters opposed the move and it was quashed. Fitzroy went to Princes Park instead for the 1967, 1968 and 1969 seasons, when it finally negotiated a successful move to the Junction Oval.

Interestingly when the Fitzroy City Council heard that Fitzroy were set to leave Princes Park made an approach to the Fitzroy to return to the Brunswick Street Oval Fitzroy agreed to return if ground works, including extensive improvements to the outer were carried out and new player rooms and public toilet were built. Unfortunately no agreement could be reached between the Council, the Cricket Club and the Football Club over what ground improvements were needed.

Fitzroy went to the Junction Oval for the 1970 season. It was a better deal than what was on offer at Carlton. At the Junction Oval Fitzroy got a third of the car-parking money for the first ten years and received a non-repayable loan from the Albert Park Trust to spend on the Junction Oval to upgrade it to a VFL standard ground.

 

[Pacman82]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Bloody cricketers......

 

[IanW]

The partial relocation to Canberra would have worked brilliantly.

I can easily imagine a league with the Brisbane Bears in it, and Fitzroy playing 4 home games a year in Canberra, and us all going 'Fold Fitzroy ? That'd be as dumb as the Melbourne/Hawthorn merger".

 

[Soul1986]

Unfortunately it was the Fitzroy Cricket Club that controlled the ground...not the football club. While the local council refused to spend any money on the ground, the far wealthier Fitzroy Cricket Club, also refused to spend any money.

Fitzroy Football Club paid the cricket club to use the ground and about a thousand cricket club members got into the ground for free every weekend to watch football.

The football club proposed a number of initiatives to try and stay at the BSO. They suggested that the Fitzroy Cricket Club and the Fitzroy Football Club form one club, which the cricket club rejected. An offer by Fitzroy to borrow $400,000 from the council to upgrade the ground was also rejected by the Cricket Club. The football club also wanted a forty year lease which was opposed, although the council had agreed to give them a 21 year lease with no funds fr improvement, which the football club found unacceptable.

After the football rooms were condemned by the local council health officer which made them unusable, Fitzroy made a number of approaches to share grounds with Northcote and Preston in the VFA. But these came to nothing.

Fitzroy would have moved to the Junction Oval for the 1967 season where the St Kilda Cricket Club wanted them as a tenant, but a large number of St Kilda Cricket Club members and supporters opposed the move and it was quashed. Fitzroy went to Princes Park instead for the 1967, 1968 and 1969 seasons, when it finally negotiated a successful move to the Junction Oval.

Interestingly when the Fitzroy City Council heard that Fitzroy were set to leave Princes Park made an approach to the Fitzroy to return to the Brunswick Street Oval Fitzroy agreed to return if ground works, including extensive improvements to the outer were carried out and new player rooms and public toilet were built. Unfortunately no agreement could be reached between the Council, the Cricket Club and the Football Club over what ground improvements were needed.

Fitzroy went to the Junction Oval for the 1970 season. It was a better deal than what was on offer at Carlton. At the Junction Oval Fitzroy got a third of the car-parking money for the first ten years and received a non-repayable loan from the Albert Park Trust to spend on the Junction Oval to upgrade it to a VFL standard ground.

Our management team, from this era, should be ashamed of themselves. They were largely responsible for the demise of our club.

Here are my thoughts...

* They clearly knew, the issues we faced at Brunswick Street in the 60s and perhaps more importantly, the need for us to broaden our supporter base etc.

* Their failure to address this issue, created a gypsy club in our last 20 odd years of our existence. Sure, Junction Oval provided a solid base and a good home ground. But, in hindsight, we should never have moved to St Kilda. It enabled the then VFL to make us their number one target to remove us from the VFL/AFL, due to our failure to address the issues back in the 60s.

* What disappoints me greatly, is the fact none of our former management team from that era, seem to accept any blame, for their woeful decision making that ensured we didnt advance as a club.

* In terms of proposed moves to Preston, Northcote or Doncaster, it appears these morons didnt have the clout or appropriate skill set to secure such a move, which could have ensured our future.

* What makes these decisions unforgivable, is the fact St Kilda moved to Moorabbin, to address similar issues prior to us moving to Junction Oval- to pick up where they left off...

* Despite all the issues that transpired upon us leaving Brunswick Street, we could still be in the AFL today, given our supporter base is on par with North Melbourne.

 

[Milang_Panthers]

Would it be possible for fitzroy to break the merger with brisbane or are they bound for life?

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

I'm sure it would be eminently possible for us to withdraw from the 1996 agreement.

Moreover, there is no "merger". The Brisbane Bears took over our AFL operations, as part of an overall agreement signed by both clubs that year, involving various obligations to be met by Brisbane. That's all.

The Fitzroy Football Club has never and will never be part of the Brisbane Lions. We are our own club in our own right and always have been.

www.fitzroyfc.com.au

 

[The Lions Den]

Less of this.

and more of this!
https://www.facebook.com/fitzroyfc

 

[Soul1986]

I'm sure it would be eminently possible for us to withdraw from the 1996 agreement.

Moreover, there is no "merger". The Brisbane Bears took over our AFL operations, as part of an overall agreement signed by both clubs that year, involving various obligations to be met by Brisbane. That's all.

The Fitzroy Football Club has never and will never be part of the Brisbane Lions. We are our own club in our own right and always have been.

www.fitzroyfc.com.au

As a member of Fitzroy Football Club, I am extremely happy we still exist in our own right and enjoy seeing Fitzroy playing back at Brunwick Street Oval.

However, for me, I will always remember Fitzroy as a VFL/AFL club, playing against other VFL/AFL clubs. Seeing them field a team in the VAFA is good but again, its more sentimental and obviously cannot replicate seeing them play in the VFL/AFL. In any way, shape or form. Period.

Fitzroy, will never withdraw as you say from the merger agreement with Brisbane. The amount of 'Fitzroy' in the Brisbane Lions will always be debated- I for one, certainly feel there is more of the bears than Fitzroy.

But, the reality is most football followers and people within the AFL Industry associate Fitzroy with the Brisbane Lions (like it or not). They see some of Fitzroy in the Brisbane Lions.

For me, this is critical - not just for Fitzroy fans, but the wider football community.

Why??

Otherwise, 100 years of VFL/AFL history and a great foundation club, would be totally forgotten about in years to come.

'Fitzroy' still get a good mention in the media too, largely because of this link with Brisbane Lions. It helps to remind people and the new generation that a team called Fitzroy, actually played in the VFL/AFL.

Aside form the obvious backlash from Fitzroy fans and everyone in the AFL Industry (including the AFL) Fitzroy would never withdraw from the merger agreement with Brisbane. Even if they could (I doubt they could legally anyway) they wouldnt. 1300 ex players, coaches, administrators and generations of fans would detest it.

 

[Stocka]

Spot on, Soul1986. Great post.

 

[killer]

the people who ran the club in the 60s and 70s were bozos

 

[Mobbs]

It's true. Brisbane mean pretty much ****-all to me, personally. But because they provide an avenue that a number of Fitzroy fans have chosen to get the fix, then I'm at least glad such a thing exists for those equally loyal fans to attach themselves to.

 

[evo]

Fitzroy went to the Junction Oval for the 1970 season. It was a better deal than what was on offer at Carlton. At the Junction Oval Fitzroy got a third of the car-parking money for the first ten years and received a non-repayable loan from the Albert Park Trust to spend on the Junction Oval to upgrade it to a VFL standard ground.

That was their biggest mistake in my view. Once they left the North Eastern Suburbs they were stuffed.

Somehow they had to make either Brunswick Oval continue to work or do a deal with VFA sides Northcote or Preston. Even moving to Heidelberg or Bulleen would have been better.

The mid 80s Fitzroy had a strong list, built from players in their Eastern suburbs zone such as Pert, Roos, Gotch, Blakey etc. and I reckon they would've built on that by keeping their North-Eastern identity.

The reason Hawthorn and the Saints were able to fend off the whiteanting AFL was because they kept and built upon their Eastern and South Eastern roots in the new suburbs that were expanding.

Collingwood and Carlton took the North but there was still the expanding new suburbs around the 'green wedge' Heidelberg - Doncaster- Ringwood that no-one really claimed. In the 70s and 80s it was one of the fastest growing areas in Melbourne. That should've been Fitzroy's stonghold. Instead they move to an inner bay suburb right next to South Melbourne's ground - who were also struggling.

 

[evo]

Victoria Park was the only place we started to make a buck - the decision to go to princess Park was a terrible one - we were done like a dinner by Carlton there. Yes it was convenient for all the eastern suburb people but no more so than getting to Vic Park but more importantly the deal we signed to made it impossible to make money whereas the Pies were very welcoming of us and wanted to make the agreement work.

Why didn't management stick with Victoria Park? That would've made heaps more sense.

 

[Broken]

Why didn't management stick with Victoria Park? That would've made heaps more sense.

At a guess I'd say a lot of fans didn't support playing at Collingwoods ground, it was a temple to Collingwood and never felt right playing there. I'm sure there is a back room story as to the ifs and whys.

 

[EVLASH]

Would it be possible for fitzroy to break the merger with brisbane or are they bound for life?

You would think so. Technically when Fitzroy went to Brisbane the debt of $5 million to the AFL was wiped, however the yearly report shows otherwise. If Fitzroy were able to payout/wipe the debt to the AFL, there would be no reason why they couldn't give a big F U to Brisbane leave them.

 

[Roylion]

You would think so. Technically when Fitzroy went to Brisbane the debt of $5 million to the AFL was wiped, however the yearly report shows otherwise. If Fitzroy were able to payout/wipe the debt to the AFL, there would be no reason why they couldn't give a big F U to Brisbane leave them.

No. There is no debt to the AFL.

Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. had a debt of $2.7 million in 1996, $1.25 million of which was to their only secured creditor the Nauru Insurance Company. It was Nauru who appointed the administrator when there was some doubt they wouldn't get their money in the event of an North Melbourne - Fitzroy merger.

It was the administrator that orchestrated the terms of the merger (which can be found here, where Brisbane absorbed the assets of Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. remained an independent entity. Nauru assigned their debt to the Brisbane Bears / Lions who despite having paid Nauru out of the $6 million merger fund that they received placed a registered charge over the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. for the $1.25 million. This was lifted in 1999, one year after control of the club was returned to the elected Fitzroy board.

So, Fitzroy Football Club today is an independent football club fielding five teams in the VAFA in 2012 and has done so since 2009. It is debt free.