Melbourne vs The World: The Jack Viney Story

[markm106]

A better player would be available with their 2nd rd selection ........... And they might rank Viney highly due to the fact that his development has been fast tracked by being in an AFL system for a year. He is probably the best inside mid in the draft (from the little I have read in mock drafts anyway) so a GC, who is in need of an inside mid, might see it as a good chance to get one esp if Caddy decides to leave ..........


That said Dylan Buckley was touted as a 1st rd selection the year before he was drafted, when Carlton agreed to select him. He slid due to various reasons (think he barely played last year at any level) and we netted him with our last selection in the draft. I don't think a club will nominate for him out of spite, but if he is a good player (was touted as a top 5 selection before his development was fast tracked by Melbourne) and if he fits a need then why wouldn't they nominate for him.

The better 2nd round selection theory is neither here not there really. Will it really impact that much.
The interesting thing will be whether another club will risk missing out on a player like Whitfield just to test Melbourne. Viney certainly is up in the top 10 possibly top 5. His year has been hampered by injury and thus his championships was not great. He did not play school footy last week however will play this week. I am starting to get the feeling Melbourne may be keeping him away from the action a bit as well.
As I stated previously I want him at Melbourne however if we miss out due to another club playing games letting us get Whitfield then I won't be to sad.

 

[coryne]

The better 2nd round selection theory is neither here not there really. Will it really impact that much.
The interesting thing will be whether another club will risk missing out on a player like Whitfield just to test Melbourne. Viney certainly is up in the top 10 possibly top 5. His year has been hampered by injury and thus his championships was not great. He did not play school footy last week however will play this week. I am starting to get the feeling Melbourne may be keeping him away from the action a bit as well.
As I stated previously I want him at Melbourne however if we miss out due to another club playing games letting us get Whitfield then I won't be to sad.

And I would say Melbourne can't complain about other clubs playing games (eg forcing their hand with #3) if they are playing games themselves ..........


It costs a small fortune to develop a player. Melbourne have started paying said small fortune for Viney already. Also the question wouldn't be "Viney or Whitfield(#3)" it would be "Viney or #4" as they would just take Whitfield with #4 anyway. IF they rate Viney somewhere in the 5-8 mark for the draft, and pass him up for who ever they rate #4, after they have spent $$$ on his development + the publicity of having him come to the club as another great hope, then do you think that would be good buisness or bad buisness ???

 

[markm106]

And I would say Melbourne can't complain about other clubs playing games (eg forcing their hand with #3) if they are playing games themselves ..........


It costs a small fortune to develop a player. Melbourne have started paying said small fortune for Viney already. Also the question wouldn't be "Viney or Whitfield(#3)" it would be "Viney or #4" as they would just take Whitfield with #4 anyway. IF they rate Viney somewhere in the 5-8 mark for the draft, and pass him up for who ever they rate #4, after they have spent $$$ on his development + the publicity of having him come to the club as another great hope, then do you think that would be good buisness or bad buisness ???

I hear what your saying and Melbourne is possibly bluffing. But will clubs call there bluff in hope they will select Viney.

 

[coryne]

I hear what your saying and Melbourne is possibly bluffing. But will clubs call there bluff in hope they will select Viney.

I would say they would be more likely to do it considering Melbourne also have #4 than if they didn't have that selection. In effect it wouldn't matter if they took Whitfield (or who ever they deem is worth #3) at #3 instead of Viney or #4, he gets to the club either way. The big question is do they rate Viney above who ever is ALSO available. It is much like in 2009 when Melbourne had #1 and #2, it took a lot of the pressure out of the equation because both players were going to Melbourne anyway, so their order didn't really matter.


As so if I want to see Melbourne taking Viney with #3, well yes I do. I think Melbourne has MASSIVELY under-achieved this year, and their 1st rd selection for Viney was always going to be fair. The fact it is a little higher than might have been expected is irrelevant, esp considering the value of the compensation they recieved for Scully has been inflated due to their under-achievement.

 

[Enforcer25]

If Melbourne have picks 3&4, it's really a decision between Viney and pick 2.

Because if they relinquish Viney to GC or GWS, they forfeit their top 2 pick for him, meaning 1 of Whitfield or Grundy (or whoever you rate as top 2) will still be on the table.

In any case, I think MFC will negotiate a deal with GWS for a mini-draft pick involving pick 3 prior to F/S bidding, thereby giving GWS incentive not to bid.
Since it would also be a fair and desireable deal for both parties, accusations of draft tampering would be easily swept aside.

The only spanner in the works is GC.
Not sure how you convince them not to bid, or if MFC really needs to.

I think the simple option is to explain the lay of the land to both GC & GWS.
MFC honestly WANT to take Viney. That is not a secret and they're not stupid enough to pretend they don't.
The simple truth is that they will put a value on him and in the best interests of the club, they can't pay over that value.
And unfortunately as much as the club wants him, to bid pick 3 or 4 for him is just too high a price, when it can mean the 2nd rated kid in the "super draft".
So, if they bid on him, MFC will sadly have to move on from the Viney era.

I don't think that's a bluff, and I also think that reasoning should produce a favourable outcome for MFC.

 

[Slattery_20]

It would be utterly, utterly hilarious to see Viney running around for the Bulldogs, and Melbourne end up with another Jack Watts or Cale Morton.

 

[tigs2010]

If Melbourne have picks 3&4, it's really a decision between Viney and pick 2.

Because if they relinquish Viney to GC or GWS, they forfeit their top 2 pick for him, meaning 1 of Whitfield or Grundy (or whoever you rate as top 2) will still be on the table.

In any case, I think MFC will negotiate a deal with GWS for a mini-draft pick involving pick 3 prior to F/S bidding, thereby giving GWS incentive not to bid.
Since it would also be a fair and desireable deal for both parties, accusations of draft tampering would be easily swept aside.

The only spanner in the works is GC.
Not sure how you convince them not to bid, or if MFC really needs to.

I think the simple option is to explain the lay of the land to both GC & GWS.
MFC honestly WANT to take Viney. That is not a secret and they're not stupid enough to pretend they don't.
The simple truth is that they will put a value on him and in the best interests of the club, they can't pay over that value.
And unfortunately as much as the club wants him, to bid pick 3 or 4 for him is just too high a price, when it can mean the 2nd rated kid in the "super draft".
So, if they bid on him, MFC will sadly have to move on from the Viney era.

I don't think that's a bluff, and I also think that reasoning should produce a favourable outcome for MFC.

I'd happily take Viney at 2. Whitfield will go one no matter what. I doubt GC will take Grundy so he would slide to you anyway. Your choice would be between trump a bid and take Viney at 3 or let him go and take Toumpas.

 

[Chris25]

Basically, my thoughts on the Viney situation are this...

- Neither Gold Coast or GWS will nominate him. He isn't a top 5 pick, so nominating him serves no purpose. And I just don't believe teams will go out of their way to spite another club. Especially not one of the new clubs, who will likely be doing a lot of trading in the next few years. They'll be looking to create plenty of good will.

- Melbourne would however take him, if nominated. They've put too much time and effort into him. Rightly or wrongly, 'missing out' on Viney would not look good - regardless of who they got instead. After losing Scully, they need someone to build around, and a tough little F/S is a dream come true for the Demons. And is there anything supporters love more, than a F/S pick? Having the extra first round picks just makes it easier to do so.

So really, I don't think it'll matter though. There will be much better players available, so Viney shouldn't come into calculations for the first two picks. The Suns, Giants and Demons will all be happy. The other 15 teams? Maybe not so much.

 

[Demonheart]

How much would GWS or anyone else be spewing if Melbourne called their bluff though and took the better player with the pick then leaving the other club no choice but to take Viney?

Especially if Viney were then to leave that club after his initial contract expires in an attempt to get to Melbourne.

In fact this could all pan out as a massive conspiracy theory for Melbourne to tamper with the draft however it will never be able to be proven.

Ok maybe I'm going over the top here but it's a thought lol

Jack Viney seems like a kid with great character, I reckon that if the club who picks him treats him well he'll stay for his whole career. Meaning if Melbourne passes on him I don't think we've got a chance on getting him back.

Also, if a club has no intention of picking Viney but bid on him just to force Melbourne's hand isn't that draft tampering as well?

A lot of grey areas

 

[Enforcer25]

It would be utterly, utterly hilarious to see Viney running around for the Bulldogs, and Melbourne end up with another Jack Watts or Cale Morton.

It would be hilarious, but how would that happen, genius?

With the assumption the demons will finish with pick 3&4, Viney will be at either the demons, GC or GWS.
He won't go anywhere else.
Can't.

 

[Demonheart]

Show a bit of respect mate. No one has any idea what will happen regarding Viney and everyone is sick of hearing about it. He just doesn't want it to continue polluting the mock drafts.

If you're sick of hearing about it then wtf did you open this thread and post in it?

Chris25 is right, having this discussion across all the draft threads was pointless, best to have one thread for it, then if anyone doesn't want to see it they don't have to open the thread. Also gives desperados like myself an avenue to analysis it to death

 

[coryne]

If Melbourne have picks 3&4, it's really a decision between Viney and pick 2.

Because if they relinquish Viney to GC or GWS, they forfeit their top 2 pick for him, meaning 1 of Whitfield or Grundy (or whoever you rate as top 2) will still be on the table.

In any case, I think MFC will negotiate a deal with GWS for a mini-draft pick involving pick 3 prior to F/S bidding, thereby giving GWS incentive not to bid.
Since it would also be a fair and desireable deal for both parties, accusations of draft tampering would be easily swept aside.

The only spanner in the works is GC.
Not sure how you convince them not to bid, or if MFC really needs to.

I think the simple option is to explain the lay of the land to both GC & GWS.
MFC honestly WANT to take Viney. That is not a secret and they're not stupid enough to pretend they don't.
The simple truth is that they will put a value on him and in the best interests of the club, they can't pay over that value.
And unfortunately as much as the club wants him, to bid pick 3 or 4 for him is just too high a price, when it can mean the 2nd rated kid in the "super draft".
So, if they bid on him, MFC will sadly have to move on from the Viney era.

I don't think that's a bluff, and I also think that reasoning should produce a favourable outcome for MFC.

Can't do that. Trades are done AFTER nominations on the f/s selections, and any handshake agreements WOULD be draft tampering. Sheedy has also already said he wants GWS to nominate for Viney too.

 

[Enforcer25]

Jack Viney seems like a kid with great character, I reckon that if the club who picks him treats him well he'll stay for his whole career. Meaning if Melbourne passes on him I don't think we've got a chance on getting him back.

Also, if a club has no intention of picking Viney but bid on him just to force Melbourne's hand isn't that draft tampering as well?

A lot of grey areas

In regards to "draft tampering", it's all about what you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that includes very little.
You can't prove a player's "real" rating.
You can't prove a team doesn't want a player more than any other at that pick.
You CAN prove that 2 teams have made a deal for q player not to be bid upon, provided there is something in writing, there is some "consideration" or someone is willing to testify to that effect.
But even then, I'd back the AFL to turn a blind eye in that case, unless the media got hold of some form of evidence.

 

[Slattery_20]

It would be hilarious, but how would that happen, genius?

With the assumption the demons will finish with pick 3&4, Viney will be at either the demons, GC or GWS.
He won't go anywhere else.
Can't.

Replace Bulldogs with <insert any other club here> then.
Point is the same.
I doubt Schwab would turn up to work the next day if it happened, not with Todd in the next office.


coryne... "Sheedy says" = two words that must have started a million threads on here! Says a lot of stuff... king of spin.

 

[Demonheart]

Can't do that. Trades are done AFTER nominations on the f/s selections, and any handshake agreements WOULD be draft tampering. Sheedy has also already said he wants GWS to nominate for Viney too.

Sheedy has already done massive damage to GWS by signing Scully on a $1m a year deal for 6 years, signing his dad for an extra $100k+ a year (also counting toward their salary cap) also caused untold damage, the board were furious when they found out.

I highly doubt that the GWS heirachy will allow Sheedy to dabble into his ongoing hatred again, it's cost the club too much already.

Do you honestly believe that GWs will let Sheedy will use the #1 pick on Viney?

 

[Demonheart]

In regards to "draft tampering", it's all about what you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that includes very little.
You can't prove a player's "real" rating.
You can't prove a team doesn't want a player more than any other at that pick.
You CAN prove that 2 teams have made a deal for q player not to be bid upon, provided there is something in writing, there is some "consideration" or someone is willing to testify to that effect.
But even then, I'd back the AFL to turn a blind eye in that case, unless the media got hold of some form of evidence.

Good points, clubs have been known to agree in principle on trades prior to the start of trade week. Melbourne and Carlton did this with Brock McLean.

 

[Demonheart]

Replace Bulldogs with <insert any other club here> then.
Point is the same.
I doubt Schwab would turn up to work the next day if it happened, not with Todd in the next office.


coryne... "Sheedy says" = two words that must have started a million threads on here! Says a lot of stuff... king of spin.

Clearly you've missed when Todd told Jack that there is no guarantee that the club will pick him.

Just because you desperately want something to happen won't make it so.

 

[Suma Magic]

And I would say Melbourne can't complain about other clubs playing games (eg forcing their hand with #3) if they are playing games themselves ..........

It costs a small fortune to develop a player. Melbourne have started paying said small fortune for Viney already. Also the question wouldn't be "Viney or Whitfield(#3)" it would be "Viney or #4" as they would just take Whitfield with #4 anyway. IF they rate Viney somewhere in the 5-8 mark for the draft, and pass him up for who ever they rate #4, after they have spent $$$ on his development + the publicity of having him come to the club as another great hope, then do you think that would be good buisness or bad buisness ???

Good summary.

The equation would be Viney or pick 4.

Knowing this, whoever has the second pick could be tempted. Pick 4 won't be sufficiently better than Viney to select IMO.

But if GWS pick second, and consider pick 4 for the mini-draft first pick, then they won't bid.

Melbourne offer pick 4 for mini-draft pick 1. GWS decide not to bid on Viney so pick 4 is free for the Dees to hand over.

Any more thoughts on this scenario from the knowledgable? What are the relevant mini-draft and father-son nomination dates?

 

[coryne]

Good summary.

The equation would be Viney or pick 4.

Knowing this, whoever has the second pick could be tempted. Pick 4 won't be sufficiently better than Viney to select IMO.

But if GWS pick second, and consider pick 4 for the mini-draft first pick, then they won't bid.

Melbourne offer pick 4 for mini-draft pick 1. GWS decide not to bid on Viney so pick 4 is free for the Dees to hand over.

Any more thoughts on this scenario from the knowledgable? What are the relevant mini-draft and father-son nomination dates?

f/s at start of trade week, before the trade period opens


mini-draft is during trade week

 

[Enforcer25]

Can't do that. Trades are done AFTER nominations on the f/s selections, and any handshake agreements WOULD be draft tampering. Sheedy has also already said he wants GWS to nominate for Viney too.

CAN do that, provided it is not done publicly.
It's only negotiated, not signed off.
Only draft tampering if you get caught.

Sheedy mouthing off in the media is meaningless.
In the end, GWS will do what is best for GWS, and it's unlikely they'd get a much better offer than pick 3 for one of the mini draft picks.

 

[Enforcer25]

Good summary.

The equation would be Viney or pick 4.

Knowing this, whoever has the second pick could be tempted. Pick 4 won't be sufficiently better than Viney to select IMO.

But if GWS pick second, and consider pick 4 for the mini-draft first pick, then they won't bid.

Melbourne offer pick 4 for mini-draft pick 1. GWS decide not to bid on Viney so pick 4 is free for the Dees to hand over.

Any more thoughts on this scenario from the knowledgable? What are the relevant mini-draft and father-son nomination dates?

Rubbish.
If MELB have picks 3&4, and Viney is bidder upon by either GC or GWS, it's essentially Viney or pick 2.

Since if they pass on Viney, GC or GWS must then take him.
That way either their pick 2 gets used up, or pick 2 gets bumped to pick 1, and MELB's picks get bumped up to 2 & 3.

 

[Suma Magic]

Some hypotheticals (assuming GC finishes last), using some players from mock drafts ordered below, and assuming Viney is the 6th best player in the draft (for arguments sake).

1. Whitfield
2. Grundy
3. Toumpas
4. Plowman
5. Mayes
6. Viney

There are also a few other assumptions that might not play out.

Scenario 1- GWS bid. Melbourne decide to select Viney.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Grundy
3. Melb - Viney

GWS would then be looking for mini-draft bids. Melbourne would decide if mini-draft pick 1 was worth more than Toumpas (for argument's sake he is the next best available).

From GWS' perspective Melbourne bidding pick 4 for the mini-draft is equivalent to the third best player in the draft. Port at pick 5 bidding is equivalent to getting the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Grundy and either 3rd best player for mini-draft (from melbourne - scenario 1a), or 4th best (from port - scenario 1b), or 5th best (and so on).
Melb get - Viney and either 3rd best player or mini-draft pick 1.

Scenario 2 - GWS bid. Melbourne pass on Viney.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Viney
3. Melb - Grundy

Melbourne again decide if they should use pick 4 on a mini-draft bid, which would be equivalent to the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Viney and 3rd best player for mini-draft (from melb) or 4th best from port..
Melb get - Grundy and 3rd best player or mini-draft pick

Scenario 3 - GWS don't bid.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Grundy
3. Melb - Toumpas

Melbourne would then decide if pick 4 should be used on a mini-draft bid, again equivalent to the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Grundy and 4th best player for mini-draft (from melb) or 5th best from port..
Melb get - Toumpas and 4th best player or mini-draft pick. And importantly Viney with their second round pick.

Summary

Melbourne would prefer scenario 3, then 2 then 1.

GWS would prefer scenario 1a, then 1b and 3 equally, then 2.

Interesting that GWS could obtain the same end result from the receipt of either pick 4 or pick 5 for mini-draft pick 1.

 

[Slattery_20]

Clearly you've missed when Todd told Jack that there is no guarantee that the club will pick him.

Just because you desperately want something to happen won't make it so.

Clearly you've missed where I don't really believe everything I hear in pre-draft posturing.

 

[Suma Magic]

Rubbish.
If MELB have picks 3&4, and Viney is bidder upon by either GC or GWS, it's essentially Viney or pick 2.

Since if they pass on Viney, GC or GWS must then take him.
That way either their pick 2 gets used up, or pick 2 gets bumped to pick 1, and MELB's picks get bumped up to 2 & 3.

You're right, I stand corrected.

If GWS bid at pick 2...it's a choice between the third best player and Viney or the third best player and the second best player.

 

[00Stinger]

Some hypotheticals (assuming GWS finishes last), using some players from mock drafts ordered below, and assuming Viney is the 6th best player in the draft (for arguments sake).

1. Whitfield
2. Grundy
3. Toumpas
4. Plowman
5. Mayes
6. Viney

There are also a few other assumptions that might not play out.

Scenario 1- GWS bid. Melbourne decide to select Viney.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Grundy
3. Melb - Viney

GWS would then be looking for mini-draft bids. Melbourne would decide if mini-draft pick 1 was worth more than Toumpas (for argument's sake he is the next best available).

From GWS' perspective Melbourne bidding pick 4 for the mini-draft is equivalent to the third best player in the draft. Port at pick 5 bidding is equivalent to getting the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Grundy and either 3rd best player for mini-draft (from melbourne - scenario 1a), or 4th best (from port - scenario 1b), or 5th best (and so on).
Melb get - Viney and either 3rd best player or mini-draft pick 1.

Scenario 2 - GWS bid. Melbourne pass on Viney.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Viney
3. Melb - Grundy

Melbourne again decide if they should use pick 4 on a mini-draft bid, which would be equivalent to the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Viney and 3rd best player for mini-draft (from melb) or 4th best from port..
Melb get - Grundy and 3rd best player or mini-draft pick

Scenario 3 - GWS don't bid.

1. GC - Whitfield
2. GWS - Grundy
3. Melb - Toumpas

Melbourne would then decide if pick 4 should be used on a mini-draft bid, again equivalent to the fourth best player in the draft.

GWS get - Grundy and 4th best player for mini-draft (from melb) or 5th best from port..
Melb get - Toumpas and 4th best player or mini-draft pick

Summary

Melbourne would prefer scenario 2, then 3 then 1.

GWS would prefer scenario 1a, then 1b and 3 equally, then 2.

Interesting that GWS could obtain the same end result from the receipt of either pick 4 or pick 5 for mini-draft pick 1.

1st thing wrong with that is GC will not get pick 1, GWS will