US Open 2013

[vaughany]

Great win, but damn what an annoying crowd. Forever walking around and yelling out during play...

This. Spot on such an obnoxious crowd

 

[bato]

He's not making as many shots as he was let's say 2011 and because of that he's getting too defensive. There were glimpses of what he can do but not consistent enough.

Overall an ok match with the 4th set disappointing

Yeah, it's all mental. He's had a chance to absolutely dominate 2013 like he did in 2011, but obvious distractions have gotten in the way. Nadal has timed his run perfectly. Coming off an injury, he'll be fresher than everyone else at this stage of the season. He's one small tournament win from number one now.

 

[bato]

This. Spot on such an obnoxious crowd

I don't even know who they were cheering for... strange people.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yep, well done Rafa. I was one of the ones who thought he'd struggle to get back after his most recent injury but boy did he prove me wrong. Such a great player to watch and I hope his knees hold out long enough for him to have a bit of a go at Federer's total grand slam record.

 

[vaughany]

I don't even know who they were cheering for... strange people.

Yeah true think there was too many drinking "oh my god" I'm sitting near Leonardo Dicaprio and Jessica Alba, let's type take a selfie during the match" type fans instead of tennis enthusiasts

 

[who gives a]

what a match by the best ever in the world Rafa you legend mate, not long to go and you will surpass Feds slam record ( as long as your knees hold up ) see you at the Ozzi Open

 

[Xtreme]

Sensational men's final, loved seeing Nadal beat djokovic

 

[The Passenger]

This. Spot on such an obnoxious crowd

pretty standard for american crowds across a lot of spots, golf included. some it is cringeworthy.

good match for the first three sets but obviously the fourth set was a let down and that was it.

there was some cracking shots bought out from both players.

at the same age, 27 and a few months, both Fed and Nadal have 13 grand slams.

 

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Mammoth choke by Djokovic in the 3rd set. Easy to remember the 0-40 he blew that would've enabled him to serve for the set, but he also had a break point chance for a double break earlier in the set. He has been mentally shot ever since he ran into the net at the French Open.

And it doesn't mean a whole lot, but Djokovic was by far the more attacking player (46 winners to 27 is a stark difference considering he was beaten easily on the scoreboard). All the talk recently had been about the new, aggressive version of Nadal.

at the same age, 27 and a few months, both Fed and Nadal have 13 grand slams.

Fed had to deal with a host of much younger players snapping at his heels at that point. Where's the younger generation now? I've finally conceded that Nadal getting to 17 is a near certainty. Honestly, 20 isn't even out of the equation.

 

[Dipper]

Yeah, it's all mental. He's had a chance to absolutely dominate 2013 like he did in 2011, but obvious distractions have gotten in the way.

It isn't mental, his year in 2011 was one of the best ever seen, up there with McEnroe 84, it was superhuman it's almost impossible to maintain that kind if level every year, if he did he'd be the best player ever but he didn't and he's not.

You could see in AO 2012 that he wasn't quite as good and you could see that Nadal was better than 2011, Nadal ran him close in that final and choked at the end. Not long after that Nadal was out of the game for a long period but whilst Djokovic was clearly the best player in that time he couldn't dominate like the year before.

Nadal added that forehand down the line from the cross court shot which he didn't have before, it was necessary when play ND and it's given him a chance. Nadal has come out like a man reborn this year, not quite ND 2011 form but not far off it.

At the end of their careers nobody is going to be saying that Djokovic was the greater player even if you could argue that his best was better than Nadal's.

 

[bato]

It isn't mental, his year in 2011 was one of the best ever seen, up there with McEnroe 84, it was superhuman it's almost impossible to maintain that kind if level every year, if he did he'd be the best player ever but he didn't and he's not.

You could see in AO 2012 that he wasn't quite as good and you could see that Nadal was better than 2011, Nadal ran him close in that final and choked at the end. Not long after that Nadal was out of the game for a long period but whilst Djokovic was clearly the best player in that time he couldn't dominate like the year before.

Nadal added that forehand down the line from the cross court shot which he didn't have before, it was necessary when play ND and it's given him a chance. Nadal has come out like a man reborn this year, not quite ND 2011 form but not far off it.

At the end of their careers nobody is going to be saying that Djokovic was the greater player even if you could argue that his best was better than Nadal's.

The amount of times that Djokovic has broken down in matches this year points to a clear lack of belief or a lack of 'killer instinct' - that all comes down to mentality. In fact, I'm confident Djokovic has come out and said exactly that in a press conference earlier this year. He said something like, "I feel like I'm playing just as good as I was in 2011. But I'm lacking that belief to close off matches." - Something along the lines. The matches against Del Potro and Murray (Wimby) in particular were a completely different Novak. He basically brought Del Po back into the match after comfortably dealing with him in the first set and the second set (which should have been his). He has been so hot and cold this season and has hardly found any real consistency in his game (results haven't been too bad though). That's the very reason he hired another coach, Wojtek Fibak.

No doubt Rafa is playing the best tennis of his career at the moment. He has adapted a more aggressive style of play, improved his serve greatly and worked ridiculously hard on his fitness after a long time on the sidelines.

Djokovic is definitely more talented than Rafa, but isn't the 'greater' player. Everything works against him if you were to compare. H2H record, grand slams, masters titles, 250/500 events etc. Although, they both have another four or five years in the tank. I'd say he'll one day be considered just as good, if not better, than Nadal. It's a biased view, but I feel he has got it in him. Time will tell I guess.

 

[evdo1706]

Djokovic is definitely more talented than Rafa

Bullshit. Novak's game just matches up better against Rafa than most players' . Is Rafa more talented than Federer because he leads their H2H? It's the same issue here. Well not quite because Rafa leads the H2H too. Let me break it down.

Serve-- Novak may be slightly better although statistically they are about the same.
Movement-- Equal on hard court. Rafa at his best was much better on clay and grass.
Forehand-- Rafa
Backhand-- Novak, although Rafa has a better slice backhand.
Net play-- Rafa
Overheads- Rafa
Mental Strength-- Rafa
Focus and fighting spirit-- Rafa
---
So how exactly do you define talent? BTW Novak doesn't play this aggressive against any player other than Rafa. He is basically a counter puncher against most players but he knows that he can't beat Rafa with pure defense. So he tries to paint the lines with his shots. In 2011 everything he hit used to go in but that form doesn't last forever and it didn't. The trade off is more unforced errors which you see now.

 

[evdo1706]

Nadal added that forehand down the line from the cross court shot which he didn't have before,

He always had that shot, but he learned to use it more efficiently against Novak. Against everyone else he can win points just by hitting cross court forehands but Novak's superior backhand doesn't allow that. He learned that the hard way in 2011. But Rafa's ability to adjust his game and make constant changes is admirable. Something even the great Federer lacked.

 

[bato]

Bullshit. Novak's game just matches up better against Rafa than most players' . Is Rafa more talented than Federer because he leads their H2H? It's the same issue here. Well not quite because Rafa leads the H2H too. Let me break it down.

Serve-- Novak may be slightly better although statistically they are about the same.
Movement-- Equal on hard court. Rafa at his best was much better on clay and grass.
Forehand-- Rafa
Backhand-- Novak, although Rafa has a better slice backhand.
Net play-- Rafa
Overheads- Rafa
Mental Strength-- Rafa
Focus and fighting spirit-- Rafa
---
So how exactly do you define talent? BTW Novak doesn't play this aggressive against any player other than Rafa. He is basically a counter puncher against most players but he knows that he can't beat Rafa with pure defense. So he tries to paint the lines with his shots. In 2011 everything he hit used to go in but that form doesn't last forever and it didn't. The trade off is more unforced errors which you see now.

You're talking ability. I'm talking NATURAL talent. Nadal's execution has been better than Djokovic's throughout the years, but Novak has by far the better game style. I'll use Dimitrov as an example. The guy is constantly compared to Federer (the most talented tennis player who has walked the earth). But his ability to consistently execute his game plan and play the way he wants to just hasn't come yet. He's still young. With Novak lately, he'll give you a solid beating if you're not focused. If you go toe-to-toe, he's vulnerable - the big hitters usually expose him. Nadal's more simplistic (big call) game hardly ever breaks down no matter what opponent you throw at him. Does that make his playing style any better than Djokovic's? No. It purely means he's skillful, physical and mentally strong enough to execute it.

If you struggle to understand what I'm saying, it's because I've posted this at 2AM. But I'll sum it up for you.

Djokovic = Talent
Nadal = Ability

---
In regards to the comparison you made on top... a lot of them are questionable.

I would have it as this:

Serve-- Rafa
Movement-- Novak
Forehand-- Rafa
Backhand-- Novak
Net play-- Novak. Rafa never ventures towards that part of the court.
Overheads- ??? - I don't understand how that is relevant to being talented whatsoever.

Mental Strength & Focus and fighting spirit- Should be put into one category: Mental Toughness - Rafa

 

[bato]

He always had that shot, but he learned to use it more efficiently against Novak. Against everyone else he can win points just by hitting cross court forehands but Novak's superior backhand doesn't allow that. He learned that the hard way in 2011. But Rafa's ability to adjust his game and make constant changes is admirable. Something even the great Federer lacked.

Ahh, see? You got the hang of it there.

 

[evdo1706]

Ahh, see? You got the hang of it there.

Talent and ability aren't mutually exclusive, in any case there are many holes in your argument. But before addressing those I'd like to know how long you have been following tennis. Thanks.

 

[matt_897]

Rafa wins net play easily over Novak. Doesn't really matter since neither of them are at the net much but you'll notice Rafa's stats at the net are usually very good, he knows when is the time to come into the net to finish off the point.

Tennis is a game of match ups. Djokovic's best can beat Nadal's best but that doesn't necessarily he is a better player than Nadal. Lots of other factors come into it

 

[bato]

Talent and ability aren't mutually exclusive, in any case there are many holes in your argument. But before addressing those I'd like to know how long you have been following tennis. Thanks.

In TENNIS, talent and ability are far from the same thing. It's one thing having a naturally good game on paper, but it's another thing executing it. Of course there are holes in my argument, because 1: It was written at 2AM in the morning. 2: You're using the literal meaning of the two words - chances are you looked them up in a dictionary to try and prove your point. 3: I've been following tennis since the Monica Seles days. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[bato]

Rafa wins net play easily over Novak. Doesn't really matter since neither of them are at the net much but you'll notice Rafa's stats at the net are usually very good, he knows when is the time to come into the net to finish off the point.

Tennis is a game of match ups. Djokovic's best can beat Nadal's best but that doesn't necessarily he is a better player than Nadal. Lots of other factors come into it

Your eyes light up when you see a statistic. There is so much more to tennis than a few numbers on a piece of paper. You cannot make an assessment of one's net play that way. I've followed both players very closely throughout their careers. Djokovic's reactions at the net are naturally better when spends more time there than Rafa. If you take the 2011 Davis Cup as an example, you will see how Djoko matched up with two Swedish doubles specialists in Robert Lindstedt and Simon Aspelin. Great placement of his volleys, great reactions and I would even go as far as to say he was better than Zimonjic on that day. Since Wimbledon, his net play has definitely dropped off. Strangely enough, people began to criticise that part of his game, without actually watching any of his matches prior to Wimby.

I'm not doubting Rafa's ability to come to the net, because he's a very, very clever player. As you said, he just knows when the right time is to come in. He's a good volleyer but only when he needs to be. He likes angling or hitting them short, but when his opponent is in a position to hit a good shot, he's often in trouble and is exposed because his reflex volleyes/half volleys are not as strong.

 

[Caesar]

Djokovic is a terrible net player. His hands are like wood and his overhead smash is comical. He fluffs so many points at the net it's ridiculous. Nadal isn't fantastic at the net either (aside from his world-class drop-volley), but he is better than Djokovic. He's also far smarter and more aware of his limitations, which means his approaches are much better. The statistics reflect that in terms of points won and lost there.

I reckon Djokovic is the worst world number one on the doubles court since Marat Safin. Most of the time he is a liability to his partner.

 

[bato]

Djokovic is a terrible net player. His hands are like wood and his overhead smash is comical. He fluffs so many points at the net it's ridiculous. Nadal isn't fantastic at the net either (aside from his world-class drop-volley), but he is better than Djokovic. He's also far more aware of his limitations, which means his approaches are much better. The statistics reflect that in terms of points won and lost there.

I reckon Djokovic is the worst world number one on the doubles court since Marat Safin. Most of the time he is a liability to his partner.

When does he fluff a shot at the net? The occasional 'sun in the eyes' or just plain mis-hit is common with every player. "His hands are like wood" - talk about an over-exaggeration. You really need to watch more of his matches, and not base your opinion off the one or two matches you've seen of his. Statistics will show that Nadal is more successful at net only because he hardly goes there. The success rate is naturally going to be higher. You cannot use that sort of statistic, unless you group them in terms of the quality of the opponent. For all we know, Nadal could be scoring off lower-ranked players.

Both players have room for improvement, but to state that he's a terrible net player, is a serious overstatement. He's not the best, but certainly NOT the worst. Heck, I've even seen Fed fluff points at the net on a regular basis. It just happens.

 

[Caesar]

Djokovic's overhead is infamous. He regularly misses sitters. Regularly.

I've watched plenty of Djokovic's matches. He is not a good net player by any stretch of the imagination. Have you seen his doubles record? Horrendous. And it would be a whole lot worse without Zimonjic carrying him in DC. For a guy with a serve like his, it actually takes talent to be that bad on a doubles court.

Nadal is quite a competent doubles player, when he chooses to play it, and a lot of it is down to his intelligent net play.

 

[bato]

Djokovic's overhead is infamous. He regularly misses sitters. Regularly.

I've watched plenty of Djokovic's matches. He is not a good net player by any stretch of the imagination. Have you seen his doubles record? Horrendous. And it would be a whole lot worse without Zimonjic carrying him in DC. For a guy with a serve like his, it actually takes talent to be that bad on a doubles court.

Nadal is quite a competent doubles player, when he chooses to play it, and a lot of it is down to his intelligent net play.

He RARELY misses overheads. You've just proved my point that you're using one or two examples and claiming it to be "regular". I've been following Djokovic since the Hopman Cup in 2006, when he first came onto the scene with Ana Ivanovic. I've seen him grow into a more complete player. Since 2011, he has worked so hard on his net game and has improved substantially. What he needs serious work on is his movement towards the net. At times, it looks like someone's shoved a toothpick up his rear just so that he goes there. It looks seriously uncomfortable. His former childhood coach, Jelena Gencic, brought him up as a serve and volleyer and encouraged him to do so from an early age. But what I can say is that he is definitely working on that part of his game. It's as if he's doing it just for her.

I know Nadal is a competent doubles player. Never said he wasn't. He's too clever of a singles player/athlete not to be good at doubles.

 

[Caesar]

He RARELY misses overheads. You've just proved my point that you're using one or two examples and claiming it to be "regular".

He missed two sitter overheads in the FO semifinal, one against Murray at Wimbledon, one against Nadal at the AO last year, one against Berdych last time he dumped him out of Wimbledon... they are just the ones that immediately spring to mind from big points in big matches in the last couple of years. I can't even think of 5 sitters that Federer/Nadal/Murray have flubbed in their entire careers.

The guy has a terrible overhead, ask around.

I've been following Djokovic since the Hopman Cup in 2006, when he first came onto the scene with Ana Ivanovic. I've seen him grow into a more complete player. Since 2011, he has worked so hard on his net game and has improved substantially. What he needs serious work on is his movement towards the net. At times, it looks like someone's shoved a toothpick up his rear just so that he goes there. It looks seriously uncomfortable. His former childhood coach, Jelena Gencic, brought him up as a serve and volleyer and encouraged him to do so from an early age. But what I can say is that he is definitely working on that part of his game. It's as if he's doing it just for her.

I would say you are perhaps a tad biased then. He is by far the worst net player of the til-recent Big 4, and worse than a lot of other guys on the tour as well. He has perhaps the worst volleys of any player ever to hold the #1 ranking. What I am saying is not a controversial opinion.

I am sure he is working on it, and good luck to him. But he is (and probably always will be) quite horrible in the service box.

 

[bato]

He missed two sitter overheads in the FO semifinal, one against Murray at Wimbledon, one against Nadal at the AO last year, one against Berdych last time he dumped him out of Wimbledon... they are just the ones that immediately spring to mind from big points in big matches in the last couple of years. I can't even think of 5 sitters that Federer/Nadal/Murray have flubbed in their entire careers.

The guy has a terrible overhead, ask around.
No, he didn't. He clipped the net before the ball bounced twiced. That's completely different.

I can't even recall the Murray one. I think this conversation has been turned into "overhead smashes" instead of "net play". Players do hit smashes from the baseline and middle of the court, you know...

To think Nadal/Federer/Murray haven't fluffed anything in their careers is ridiculously silly. In one example that springs to mind, The 2010 Australian Open Fed/Davydenko match. Fed missed PLENTY of sitters in that match when he should have comfortably disposed of Nikolay.


I would say you are perhaps a tad biased then. He is by far the worst net player of the til-recent Big 4, and worse than a lot of other guys on the tour as well. He has perhaps the worst volleys of any player ever to hold the #1 ranking. What I am saying is not a controversial opinion.

Of course I am biased. Does not make my opinion any less credible. I've watched him for a very long time. I know how much he has improved his net play. It makes me cringe when people use rare examples to discredit him. No, it's not controversial. It's an opinion - you're absolutely entitled to it.

I am sure he is working on it, and good luck to him. But he is (and probably always will be) quite horrible in the service box.

Agree to disagree then. This ain't going anywhere.