Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[awaremind]

Don't you mean won't happen again ?

 

[Zidane98]

Don't you mean won't happen again ?

If you're referring to WW2 no it won't happen. Russia has got nowhere near the level of aggression displayed by Japan at the time. That's part of the reason why the need to be taught a lesson about Ukraine. They'll think twice in the future before they decide to invade Kazakhstan / Mongolia / Belarus. Putin needs to understand that the USSR is no longer around.

 

[awaremind]

Huh who are you John Mcain? Thats not going to work ! Don't be so naive cowboy foreign policy is not applicable here.

 

[Zidane98]

Common sense and respect is applicable here. This is all about Russia not wanting Ukraine breaking away from its clutches and pursuing democracy. Russia needs to back off and let Ukraine take care of itself. I have friends with Ukranian background and a Ukranian that wants Russian influence is a myth. The country has had enough Russian oppression.

 

[The_Reaper]

If you're referring to WW2 no it won't happen. Russia has got nowhere near the level of aggression displayed by Japan at the time. That's part of the reason why the need to be taught a lesson about Ukraine. They'll think twice in the future before they decide to invade Kazakhstan / Mongolia / Belarus. Putin needs to understand that the USSR is no longer around.

Why the **** would they invade Kazakhstan/Mongolia/Belarus?

Why should the West give a **** if they did anyway?

 

[madmug]

If you're referring to WW2 no it won't happen. Russia has got nowhere near the level of aggression displayed by Japan at the time. That's part of the reason why the need to be taught a lesson about Ukraine. They'll think twice in the future before they decide to invade Kazakhstan / Mongolia / Belarus. Putin needs to understand that the USSR is no longer around.

Russia doesnt need any lessons about its western approaches. It learned from Napoleon, WW1 & WW2. Its that direction from where invasion traditionally comes from. Those invasions cost Russia/USSR 10's of millions of lives & a great deal of treasure.

Maybe the West needs to think about the triggers for Russia's defensive mentality. Maybe not sending so many threatening signals. Maybe understanding how they view the situation.

The USA are very defensive about perceived threats within their region. Russia is no different.

 

[awaremind]

"Ukraine’s top general is contradicting allegations by the Obama Administration and by his own Ukrainian Government, by saying that no Russian troops are fighting against the Ukrainian Government’s forces in the formerly Ukrainian, but now separatist, area, where the Ukrainian civil war is being waged."

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/01/...re-are-no-russian-troops-fighting-against-us/

 

[Zidane98]

Russia doesnt need any lessons about its western approaches. It learned from Napoleon, WW1 & WW2. Its that direction from where invasion traditionally comes from. Those invasions cost Russia/USSR 10's of millions of lives & a great deal of treasure.

Maybe the West needs to think about the triggers for Russia's defensive mentality. Maybe not sending so many threatening signals. Maybe understanding how they view the situation.

The USA are very defensive about perceived threats within their region. Russia is no different.

Do you see the US supplying rebel troops in Cuba covertly in an attempt to overthrow communism there? No you don't. All of the same arguments apply; Cuba is a neighbour, a trading partner. America could argue they are "concerned" about the safety of citizens there. They have guantanomo bay there and have historical links to Cuba which was briefly incorporated into the USA. But they don't. And that's where the difference lies. Everyone understands Russia has a right to pursue & maintain interests in the Ukraine. Nobody is denying that. What Russia is doing at the moment is covertly supplying rebel troops and effectively declaring war on Ukraine in an attempt to undermine the county. I can't see how any reasonable person would view Russia's actions in this conflict as anything over than unacceptable.

 

[Zidane98]

"Ukraine’s top general is contradicting allegations by the Obama Administration and by his own Ukrainian Government, by saying that no Russian troops are fighting against the Ukrainian Government’s forces in the formerly Ukrainian, but now separatist, area, where the Ukrainian civil war is being waged."

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/01/...re-are-no-russian-troops-fighting-against-us/

You are a propaganda whore aren't you princess?

Firstly, you might want to take a look at the website you have quoted. Not the most neutral site one can find.
Secondly, officially there are no "russian" forces in Ukraine. That's all he is saying and he then goes on to say there's plenty of them fighting in an unofficial capacity.

Your're really quite easy to discredit. See below:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828

Russan soldiers not wanting to be sent unofficially to Ukraine:

http://www.ibtimes.com/young-russians-dodge-draft-more-more-avoid-risk-fighting-ukraine-1804246

And of course this little gem where a Russian soldier posted to instagram a photo taken inside Ukraine (GPS coordinates recorded with photo):

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/d...am-account-prove-russia-is-covertl#.eaPL3gm69

Yet more evidence of Russian involvement:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...17/Secret-dead-of-Russias-undeclared-war.html

Officially, there aren't any Russian troops in Ukraine at all. But only a Putin puppet or an absolute moron would try and claim that Russia is not involved in the East Ukraine war and is supplying the rebels with weapons and extra infantrymen.

 

[Zidane98]

As expected it was the rebels who shelled a civilian bus evacuating the war zone last week:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...cs-tangled-volnovakha-bus-massacre-narrative/

Separatists posted on their VK page that they had successfully attacked a Ukranian government checkpoint shortly after the attack. Only to delete their post shortly after discovering they had murdered a busload of innocent civilians. Sound familiar? *cough MH 17 cough MH 17*.

OCSE investigated the rocket shellings and found they were consistent with firing from separatist held areas. The rebels even went to the lengths of interviewing a fake victim to try and blame legitimate government forces. There is absolutely no doubt that the rebels have shelled the Ukranian government checkpoint and have murdered a busload of innocent civilians. The evidence is absolutely conclusive & unequivocal but no doubt we'll get Putin lovers on here trying to deny it.


All the rebels are doing in this war is murdering innocent civilians and destroying the region. Time for them to give up and surrender.

 

[awaremind]

You are the one going around saying its all russian troops, not possibly some isolated russian troops. Plus all of those sites are propaganda rubbish.
I think they are giving them or selling them weapons, but the point is more that they(the ukrainians) are fighting the residents (mostly) of the area.

 

[awaremind]

As expected it was the rebels who shelled a civilian bus evacuating the war zone last week:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...cs-tangled-volnovakha-bus-massacre-narrative/

Separatists posted on their VK page that they had successfully attacked a Ukranian government checkpoint shortly after the attack. Only to delete their post shortly after discovering they had murdered a busload of innocent civilians. Sound familiar? *cough MH 17 cough MH 17*.

OCSE investigated the rocket shellings and found they were consistent with firing from separatist held areas. The rebels even went to the lengths of interviewing a fake victim to try and blame legitimate government forces. There is absolutely no doubt that the rebels have shelled the Ukranian government checkpoint and have murdered a busload of innocent civilians. The evidence is absolutely conclusive & unequivocal but no doubt we'll get Putin lovers on here trying to deny it.


All the rebels are doing in this war is murdering innocent civilians and destroying the region. Time for them to give up and surrender.

Time for both parties to give up, they are going to be the poorest nations in the world if they go on fighting. Russia and US included. Wars on too many fronts will sicken the US economy too.

 

[awaremind]

That bus thing was pretty ****ed, and its not beyond dispute what happed since apparently the area was heavily mined also. Even if it was the seperatists murder is not an accurate description.

 

[Zidane98]

That bus thing was pretty stuffed, and its not beyond dispute what happed since apparently the area was heavily mined also. Even if it was the seperatists murder is not an accurate description.

"If it was the separatists ". Wow. There are no words.

 

[Zidane98]

It was the separatists that refused to continue peace talks:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/30/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0L30Y220150130

Headed straight to Moscow after declaring they weren't interested in peace talks. They have launched a huge offensive in the last week or so in an attempt to maintain Moscow's grip on the region at the expense of its residents.

Even more disturbing is the rebels believe they "reserve the right" to attack Maruipol. They are out of control and now need to be stopped along with Moscow.

 

[awaremind]

last ceasefire kiev used it only as a chance to regroup but continued to shell donetsk. 15 were killed yesterday when a hospital in donetsk was shelled yesterday. No they were not murdered exactly but a disregard for civilian casualties has been defining factor in this nasty war.
Even the osce admits that both sides have committed war crimes.

How do you suggest they be stopped?? a shock and awe campaign against ethnic russians on russian borders? Oh really. Someone likes a bit of brinkmanship.

 

[Zidane98]

last ceasefire kiev used it only as a chance to regroup but continued to shell donetsk. 15 were killed yesterday when a hospital in donetsk was shelled yesterday. No they were not murdered exactly but a disregard for civilian casualties has been defining factor in this nasty war.
Even the osce admits that both sides have committed war crimes.

How do you suggest they be stopped?? a shock and awe campaign against ethnic russians on russian borders? Oh really. Someone likes a bit of brinkmanship.

How about they actually respect the Minsk protocol which was agreed between all parties in September for starters. But no, the second it was signed rebel forces launched a massive attack on Donetsk Airport and instead of resuming peace talks this week they've gone and launched a huge Russian backed offensive it seems because they fear that NATO and/or the US may actually help Ukraine out.

We all agree that the citizens retain a right to have relations with Russia and Russia itself has many interests in Ukraine. But this is not the way to go about things just because Ukraine has finally had enough of Russian oppression and seeks to remove itself. The rebels need to cease their heinous attacks immediately, de arm themselves and go to the negotiation table. Attacking the Ukraine will not get them anywhere and brings death & destruction to the region only. You would of thought that their leaders would have enough brains to figure that out by now but Moscow wants them to keep undermining Ukraine it seems.

And as for the last bit of your post, why would ethnic russians be targeted? They've done nothing wrong. Infact, in most neutral polls, only 8& of residents from the Lugansk & Donetsk region want the separatists there. The only targets for Ukranian forces are rebel targets and not civilians. Unfortunately the OCSE has reported that the rebels extensively fire from residential positions which is absolutely appalling and should cease immediately.

 

[Zidane98]

Rebels have killed once again in Maruiopol:

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061

Once again targeting Ukranian government checkpoints. Pretty low act targeting a checkpoint - it isn't a military target. 30 dead this time. I guess they were serious when they said "they reserved the right to attack Maruiopol".


Even awaremind would have to admit they are out of control. Going through the OCSE reports it is clear they have launched a huge shelling campaign in the last week against Ukraine since refusing to attend or even acknowledge peace talks and/or the Minsk protocol.

 

[awaremind]

Targeting checkpoints is pretty standard practise from both sides in this stupid war. Don't say its one and not the other. That september ceasefire was not upheld by either side, and the january offensive I believe comes because A) pushing the junta as far back as it takes so that Gorlovka and Donetsk cannot be targeted is essential for the naf.
B) there are signs of strife in Kiev with the right wing militia's beginning to attack government forces and try to storm the presidential buildings and the rada. I guess they want to put as much pressure on as they can.

Hey over 5500 civilians have been killed in this war in which Kiev was the aggressor, there are no angels here especially not assholes like Yatsenyiuk.
His punisher rhetoric tells you right away that Kiev has been bloodthirsty all along.

 

[Zidane98]

Congratulations on an almost perfect recital of Russian propaganda.

A few things:

It was the rebels who first attacked Ukranian armed forces asserts in an attempt to gather weaponry. This has been confirmed by the OCSE.

As one would expect, Ukraine responded with an anti terrorist campaign to remove rebel forces from East Ukraine. During this campaign rebel forces consistently attacked from residential areas - again confirmed by OCSE. Civilians have died as a result of UAF returning dire at rebel positions - again confirmed by OCSE.

The ceasefire - Again it was the rebels who launched a blitzkreig on Donetsk Airport shortly after the Minsk protocol was agreed. OCSE has reported a major offensive in the last 2 weeks by rebels who did not attend peace talks and have said they will not consider peace talks. OCSE confirms this too.

Those are the facts and if you choose to believe that the rebels are still doing no wrong (and you haven't even criticised them for shooting down mh17) it is clear that you will only listen to anything that is in support of Russia and her representatives.

Peace can be achieved if the rebels stop killing civilians and resume talks at the negotiating table.

Unfortunately war is what Russia desires in East Ukraine. A "frozen" conflict means Ukraine will struggle to be integrated into Europe and/or NATO as it desires to now.

 

[awaremind]

I don't think the majority of Ukranians really would like to be part of NATO, as it would make them the frontline of its desired war against Russia.

I guess when the ultranationalist soccer fans burnt alive the 40 (mostly women) antimaidan protesters in Odessa, which has consistantly been glossed over in western media
the militia's knew it was death or exile or fight.
This map will show you why poor "We'll get those bastards" Yats and "thier children will rot in cellars " Poroshenko are now crying for help and ceasefires now.

See that little pocket, it represents 5-10000 Ukrainian soldiers that Kievs shit military leadership has allowed to become cut off from the rest of the army. If all those soldiers die or surrender, I'm not sure Kiev will recover from that. There needs to be a large buffer zone with non aligned peace keepers or something.

 

[Zidane98]

"Shit military leadership". Sounds like you are cheering on the Russians / rebels in their attempt at maintaing an ongoing war with no hope of peace to undermine Ukraine's efforts of breaking away from Russian oppression.

Oh and for the uneducated Ukraine as a country is relatively weak militarily for its size. This was mostly due to the signing of the Budapest Memorandum:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Russia and Ukraine are both signatories and Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's sovereign territory. In exchange Ukraine gave up all of its nuclear weapons to Russia and much of its military hardware. Considering that the Ukranian armed forces are very inexperienced and they are effectively fighting a war against Russia they are actually doing very well repelling Russian & rebel aggression. I also note that you consistently refuse to address Russia's blatant disregard for the Budapest Agreement and continue to blame Ukraine for being attacked by Russia.

I'm beginning to strongly suspect you are a paid Russian troll because you quoted thier children will rot in cellars " Poroshenko. That is a blatant propaganda Russian lie as proven here:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/lies-pet...dren-from-donbas-would-be-sitting-in-cellars/

What he ACTUALLY said was the occupation of Donbass by rebels makes the people suffer. Which is pretty much spot on.

And of your comment "well get those bastards" you quoted Yatsenyuk as saying:

The actual full context of that quotation "we'll get those bastards that shot down MH-17". A sentiment 99% of the world agrees on and the other 1 % are made up of Russian propaganda puppets.

Oh and your baseless claim about the Odessa massacre a quite comprehensive report by the UN:

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf

Summary of found here:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/manufact...utrage-over-an-odesa-massacre-that-never-was/

The perpetrators of soccer fan killings were eastern ukranian independence fighers. Left out by Russian propaganda is the fact that federal activists were shooting from the building at protestors and throwing molotov cocktails at them.

So the reality of what happened is that heavily armed federal activists fired upon united ukraine demonstrators and threw molotov cocktails at them. In response to this, molotov cocktails were thrown at the building they barricaded themselves in.

Quite a bit different from the Russian narrative of "Nazi protestors backed by the west attack federal activists who support russia and murder them".
But then we always knew that the truth was never the strongpoint of Vladimir Putin's Russia.

You can keep throwing propaganda at day long if you like but you won't get very far doing it a\s everyone is on to Russia' s game these days. Please feel free to attempt discrediting anything I have said in this discussion as an outright lie which I have demonstrated clearly many of your arguments are. I await your response.

 

[awaremind]

Hah I'm not paid I'm just very sceptical of the motivations of the USA , or some elements thereof who of course are very involved. I think dividing europe is the true goal of this exercise and it has succceeded tremendously. Both sides are using these events to gather political support for what they want to do. You speak as though there is some consensus. There is no consensus. Half of the world thinks one thing half thinks the other. Or maybe even two thirds tune out completely because they are sick of the petty bickering.There is just a beareaucratic and media army telling you what to think on either side and people getting blown up by both sides. The worst fate though is for the Kiev soldiers who are conscripted and the women and children of Donbass. (Remote)Interventionism is not what is best for countries. If it was on the us or our borders what would we do ? Let Europe and Ukraine and Russia sort it out its not for the US to intervene especially by sending weapons.

 

[Zidane98]

The US and the rest of the world has been very restrained so far by not intervening in this war. It is best if it remains that way but it will only remain that way if Russia ceases all military operations in Ukraine and respects Ukraine ' s sovereign territory as it agreed to do so when Ukraine disarmed itself after the Budapest agreement.

I think we can all agree that the occupying rebel forces have done nothing for the people of East ukraine. That much is abundantly clear and it is about time they stopped their war and come to the negotiating table.

 

[awaremind]

I agree they should find a diplomatic solution yes. They should also actually honour it this time - all sides.