2020 International Cup Divisions

[Abram Jones]

it is understandable to have divisions in order to avoid huge score differences, but i'm still disappointed that we didn't get to see Croatia play a bit tougher competition (i am of the opinion that the China game was a bit of a fluke). here is a rough draft proposal for men's divisions in the 2020 cup.

DIVISION I (round robin)

GROUP A
Papua New Guinea
United States
Nauru
Croatia (promoted)
Canada

GROUP B
New Zealand
United Ireland
Fiji
Britain
Germany (promoted)

DIVISION II (each team plays random 3 teams)
South Africa (relegated)
France (relegated)
Japan
China
India
Indonesia
Pakistan
Sri Lanka

*last place group A and group B plays 1st and 2nd place Division II teams for potential promotion and relegation purposes.

Here is my dream tournament that won't happen unfortunately

DIVISION I
Western Australia Amateurs
Northern Territory Amateurs
South Australia Amateurs
Victoria Amateurs
New South Wales Amateurs
Queensland Amateurs
Papua New Guinea
New Zealand
United Ireland
Indigenous Australia

DIVISION II
United States
Nauru
Croatia
Canada
Fiji
Samoa
Tonga
Britain
Germany
Denmark

DIVISION III
South Africa
France
Japan
China
India
Indonesia
Pakistan
Sri Lanka
Israel Palestine
Sweden

DIVISION IV
Hong Kong
Finland
Spain
Singapore
East Timor
Argentina
Czechia
Iceland
Italy
Vietnam

*last 2 teams and first 2 teams in each division will play each other for potential relegation and promotion purposes.

 

[Gigantor]

Personally, the ideal number is to have 8 teams in Div 1 split into two groups of four (with similar structure in Div 2), such that you have 3 first round games, semi finals (1st of one group vs 2nd of other group), and then finals and placement play-offs (identical format for both divisions.

You'd keep the womens the same as now, similar format, being two groups of four.

I'm not convinced that Croatia and Germany deserve to be ahead of Sth Africa for a spot in Division 1, although the winner of their Div 2 final probably deserves to replace France in Div 1.

I know until now we've run with whoever has been able to make the long trip, but in the future, we might want to be a bit more discerning so that no more than 16 teams (in mens) make it so that we can split them up in an orderly manner.

This time round, it's a bit of a travesty that Ireland beat PNG but weren't able to make the final because they had to play NZ as well (having said that, I'm happy to see PNG in the final because they are probably the most exciting team to watch).

 

[RedV3x]

Personally, the ideal number is to have 8 teams in Div 1.

A nice piece of retrospective naval gazing. Why don't you organize the next one.

 

[RedV3x]

Croatia play a bit tougher competition.

Looking at Croatia, they're tough but they don't play that well.

 

[NoobPie]

A nice piece of retrospective naval gazing. Why don't you organize the next one.

Unjustifiably curt

Personally, the ideal number is to have 8 teams in Div 1 split into two groups of four (with similar structure in Div 2), such that you have 3 first round games, semi finals (1st of one group vs 2nd of other group), and then finals and placement play-offs (identical format for both divisions.

You'd keep the womens the same as now, similar format, being two groups of four.

I'm not convinced that Croatia and Germany deserve to be ahead of Sth Africa for a spot in Division 1, although the winner of their Div 2 final probably deserves to replace France in Div 1.

I know until now we've run with whoever has been able to make the long trip, but in the future, we might want to be a bit more discerning so that no more than 16 teams (in mens) make it so that we can split them up in an orderly manner.

This time round, it's a bit of a travesty that Ireland beat PNG but weren't able to make the final because they had to play NZ as well (having said that, I'm happy to see PNG in the final because they are probably the most exciting team to watch).

I'd be shooting for 24 for the men next time around and 3 divisions of 8....or at least have 2 divisions of 8 plus a third of the risidual. A lot fairer to have complete round robins than play 4 games in a ten team division to determine grand finalists as well.

Increase the number of women's teams but only have 8 in division one...ie hopefully New Zealand next time and either tonga or France / crusaders.

You'd hope there might be more Asian teams next time in both men's and women's

 

[Abram Jones]

I'm not convinced that Croatia and Germany deserve to be ahead of Sth Africa for a spot in Division 1, although the winner of their Div 2 final probably deserves to replace France in Div 1.

i'm not either. having said that i was a little surprised by South Africa's poor performance this year. but the point is Croatia certainly deserves to play more teams than just Asian teams. it would have been ideal if at very least Germany and Croatia could then play South Africa and France to see who is promoted and relegated. there needs to be diversity in matches. most predictions had Germany and Croatia getting by the Asian countries.. so what's left? a 5th place European Championship final. Germany and Croatia need to be tested against tougher nations. We know that Croatia and Germany don't fare well against Ireland... but there are better teams that aren't quite to Ireland's level that they could play.... Nauru, United States (are sometimes to Ireland's level), South Africa, Fiji, Canada, etc.

 

[Gigantor]

A nice piece of retrospective naval gazing. Why don't you organize the next one.

Thank you for your vote of confidence, but it was pretty clear from the start that a format where you have one group of 10 teams, with four games per team, and where the top two play off in the final, is flawed.

It was also pretty clear from the start that Ireland having to play both NZ and PNG is not really fair.

Do you disagree?

 

[Gigantor]

Unjustifiably curt



I'd be shooting for 24 for the men next time around and 3 divisions of 8....or at least have 2 divisions of 8 plus a third of the risidual. A lot fairer to have complete round robins than play 4 games in a ten team division to determine grand finalists as well.

That would work for me as well.

The idea of a residual group in both mens and womens has merit because you retain the option of having full divisions of 8 teams even if there are any last minute drop outs (as can happen in this sort of competition).

If you end up with a residual of 2 or 3 teams, you can throw in a multi-cultural teams as we did one year with the womens, to at least provide those teams with some competition, that's actually better than disrupting the groups with teams which are going to get flogged by 100 points anyway.

 

[RedV3x]

I'd be shooting for 24 for the men

Good luck with that. Are you underwriting the shortfall ?

 

[RedV3x]

Do you disagree?

Yes. Without doubt this has been an enthralling series.

 

[NoobPie]

Good luck with that. Are you underwriting the shortfall ?

No. Why would I? What a bizarre thing to say

 

[RedV3x]

No. Why would I? What a bizarre thing to say

So why make a "bizarre" suggestion ?
Talk about shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[NoobPie]

That would work for me as well.

The idea of a residual group in both mens and womens has merit because you retain the option of having full divisions of 8 teams even if there are any last minute drop outs (as can happen in this sort of competition).

If you end up with a residual of 2 or 3 teams, you can throw in a multi-cultural teams as we did one year with the womens, to at least provide those teams with some competition, that's actually better than disrupting the groups with teams which are going to get flogged by 100 points anyway.

Yep, great idea. I was actually thinking with a couple more european teams (ie Scandinavian, dutch) or another islander team you could have decent 2nd division e.g. South Africa; Canada; France; Germany; Croatia; Sweden; Denmark; China; Japan

That leaves the sub continent teams and indonesia from this time...there seems to be significant efforts to develop nationals in other parts of south east asia

In the womens it seems like, with the addition of NZ, there is likely to be 7 very competitive teams. Maybe the french can establish sufficient numbers over the next three years (not sure the crusaders concept is a goer when all the other teams have 12 month build ups)

 

[NoobPie]

So why make a "bizarre" suggestion ?
Talk about shoot yourself in the foot.

Because it's not bizaare. How about you just engage with the other contributors here with a bit more respect?

If you disagree, explain why. Your "are you underwriting the short fall?" question made no sense to me. Short fall in what? Finance? Teams?

There seems to be a very small group of contributors here interested in the international development, and you manage to have insulted all of them from one time or other

 

[Gigantor]

Yes. Without doubt this has been an enthralling series.

It's been a good series, but the big division of 10 teams was a mistake. Hopefully it will never happen again.

 

[RedV3x]

Because it's not bizaare. How about you just engage with the other contributors here with a bit more respect?

It's bizarre that exactly 24 teams will compete.
It's more bizarre that they will fall conveniently into three divisions of equal standard.
Not going to happen.

How about you just engage with the other contributors here with a bit more respect?

You used the word "bizarre". If the cap fits...

 

[RedV3x]

It's been a good series, but the big division of 10 teams was a mistake. Hopefully it will never happen again.

Why ?
This series been a standout success IMO.

 

[NoobPie]

It's bizarre that exactly 24 teams will compete.
It's more bizarre that they will fall conveniently into three divisions of equal standard.
Not going to happen.



You used the word "bizarre". If the cap fits...

It's bizarre that you are unable to read and comprehend a full sentence yet take an almost comically ridiculous conceited attitude to others around these threads

I said "the residual" would fall into the third group (ideally but not necessarily 8 of them.) I never suggested they would "fall conveniently into three divisions of equal standard". I just don't think the game lends itself to big differences in capabilities...and I think if you have 5 games to play with than 2 groups of 4 per division with semis and finals is the best model

 

[Gigantor]

Why ?
This series been a standout success IMO.

Why was one big division of 10 teams a mistake?

Well Ireland's predicament provides the very best evidence, but that aside, the 10 teams are playing 4 games each, so obviously who you get to play is going to affect where you end up on the ladder after four games.

If you got to play the two bottom sides, for argument's sake, not only do you have two guaranteed wins, but you might end up with two 100+ point wins, with the likelihood of pushing your percentage beyond those teams who did not get to play the two bottom teams.

And as Noob Pie suggests, it was all unncessary. Rather than allowing the 2nd division to have the neat 8 teams split into two groups of four, the top division should have had that, because that's the division which matters most, then you can do whatever you please with the remainder.

So yes, quite clearly, the one big division of 10 teams was a mistake, hopefully never to be repeated.

 

[RedV3x]

Rather than allowing the 2nd division to have the neat 8 teams split into two groups of four, the top division should have had that,

But that would not be fair on two first division teams. No system is perfect. Second division wasn't perfect.
Everybody I've talked to at IC17 is extremely happy with the event.
Easily the best fit for the circumstances.

 

[Gigantor]

But that would not be fair on two first division teams. No system is perfect. Second division wasn't perfect.
Everybody I've talked to at IC17 is extremely happy with the event.
Easily the best fit for the circumstances.

If you looks at the WFN rankings, the top 8 teams (after Australia) are:

2. Papua New Guinea 59.04 3 37 +1

3. New Zealand 58.09 2 42 -1

4. Ireland 57.40 4 57 -

5. United States 51.49 5 46 -

6. Great Britain 47.96 6 63 -

7. Nauru 47.76 7 30 -

8. Canada 46.97 8 46 -

9. South Africa 46.49 10 30 +1

In 10th place is Denmark, who didn't attend for the first time in its history.

Fiji and France are a fair bit behind Sth Africa in the rankings, so arguably, it would have been more than fair for both to miss out on being in Division One.

You can see how good two groups of four teams would have been (as an example):
Group A - PNG, Ireland, Great Britain, Canada
Group B - NZ, USA, Nauru, Sth Africa

It would have worked much, much better than what we ended up with. Ireland would have topped its group and played the USA in the semi-final for a spot in the final.

 

[RedV3x]

Fiji and France are a fair bit behind Sth Africa in the rankings, so arguably, it would have been more than fair for both to miss out on being in Division One.

Fair ? These teams are paying thousands to play for their country and people who don't pay one cent say they should be in second division.
What about the potential for blowouts in second division or doesn't that matter ?
No teams are complaining. All teams are happy.
Then there are people saying it wasn't fair for Croatia and Germany to be in second division.
These people again aren't people attending the games.

The R.S.A. just managed to defeat Fiji so you got that one wrong.

 

[Gigantor]

Fair ? These teams are paying thousands to play for their country and people who don't pay one cent say they should be in second division.
What about the potential for blowouts in second division or doesn't that matter ?
No teams are complaining. All teams are happy.
Then there are people saying it wasn't fair for Croatia and Germany to be in second division.
These people again aren't people attending the games.

The R.S.A. just managed to defeat Fiji so you got that one wrong.

Correct, focus should be on first division, that's where the IC winner comes from.

As discussed, SA have declined from where they were 9 years ago, but they are still the 8th best ranked team. If down the track Fiji improves their ranking, then they will replace SA in the top 8.

 

[RedV3x]

Correct, focus should be on first division,

Focus should be on the TEAMS that expend a whole lot of money, time and effort in getting to these games.
The games are arranged in conjunction of the team's wishes.
The format of the games is what they want.

If you have strong opinions otherwise maybe you should get involved.
If you do get involved you'll find just how difficult things are
because as we know everybody has slightly different ideas.
One thing that is needed is a positive outlook and I don't see anyone here doing that.
What about some praise for the U.S.A. for just missing out on the G.F.
What about acknowledging some of the fantastic skills on display at the cup.
As for results there's a good article on the clash of styles and the results it produces.

 

[Abram Jones]

Focus should be on the TEAMS that expend a whole lot of money, time and effort in getting to these games.
The games are arranged in conjunction of the team's wishes.
The format of the games is what they want.

If you have strong opinions otherwise maybe you should get involved.
If you do get involved you'll find just how difficult things are
because as we know everybody has slightly different ideas.
One thing that is needed is a positive outlook and I don't see anyone here doing that.
What about some praise for the U.S.A. for just missing out on the G.F.
What about acknowledging some of the fantastic skills on display at the cup.
As for results there's a good article on the clash of styles and the results it produces.

i agree that the countries putting the most money and effort into it should have more of a say of how things go to a degree... but it gets tricky. obviously countries like the United States and Britain are going to have access to more wealth and resources than Croatia or Sri Lanka, so it's not fair in that respect. at any rate, i think the International Cup is an excellent tournament. but we are fans, and we are going to have our criticisms. i don't think anyone here is being that negative... we are just giving our 2 pesos (maybe that's all we have).

my disappointment that Croatia didn't play tougher teams is just what it is from my perspective (especially because i need them to play tougher teams for my ranking purposes). i am not nagging on the tournament, it is over all a positive tournament. of course something with such small funding is always guaranteed to have problems. hell, the FIFA world cup has virtually unlimited riches, and it's an obsolete pile of shit.