Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[WhiteHartLane23]

So I thought I would look at the more peculiar surnames on my VFA list. Just to see what comes up.
2.
G. Bambrook (spelling?) played Richmond VFA 1899-1900 for 6 games.
This say he was from Port Arlington (FC ?) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196513386
This may be him over in New Zealand ? Its from June 1904 "It says Mr G. Banbrook (sic), who at one time was a great Richmondite, wrties from Dunedin N.Z to state that the Australian Game has been established there. He writes very hopefully about the game which he says is progressing. Then he concludes with a desire to be remembered to all Richmond boys," http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241921681

From a review on Ancestry I think he is George Banbrook - although I cannot find any link to Portarlington
Born 1873 in Sebastopol
Died 1962 in Carrum
There is a New Zealand electoral roll record for him in 1905-1906 at Chalmers, Otago (suburb of Dunedin) - lists occupation as electric tramway operator
In 1912 he is in Australian electoral rolls with occupation motor man which correlates with this article: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11646355
In 1901 he served in Boer War and he later also served in WW1. (AWM site gives details)
Married Caroline Wilhelmina Juckert in 1902 - divorced in 1928 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article3950440) - 5 children

 

[35Daicos]

If you look at the 2004 Rd. 18 Football Record (page 74) there's coverage of the retrospective awards night, it names the medal winners over the years (file size for that page is too large, so I can't post it here). It has Harry Brereton as the winner of the 1911 Leading Goalkicker Medal, so I think it's very likely that the AFL (sort of) has this right; it may just be that only the Season Guide has it wrong. This doesn't mean they didn't erroneously give out a medal (in 2004) for Gardiner for 1911 leading goalkicker (H&A), but they probably didn't. As for the book ... !!

Wikipedia has this correct: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Coleman_Medal
However, it has it wrong for Dick Lee in the multiple winners section, still counting him as a winner for 1910, and with 8 wins instead of 7.

No matter what, this is rather puzzling to me, as what the AFL have in their records should be matched with what the Season Guide has, and any important changes made should appear in the book.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Can someone please confirm to me that John Reeves, the father of Michael Reeves and grandfather of Josh Caddy is the nephew of Colin and Ray Niven?

Cheers.

 

[rbartlett]

Found the first name of 'House" who played a handful of games for Richmond in 1888.
It is 'Frank House'. No further information yet, but I stumbled across his name in a boxing advertisement of all thing from Oct 3 1888 (Sportsman)
It also lists a couple of other playes.

 

[35Daicos]

Can someone please confirm to me that John Reeves, the father of Michael Reeves and grandfather of Josh Caddy is the nephew of Colin and Ray Niven?

Cheers.

This says he was: https://australianfootball.com/players/player/john+reeves/7729

John Reeves

Family links
Les Reeves (Brother)Michael Reeves (Son)Colin Niven (Uncle)Ray Niven (Uncle)Josh Caddy (Grandson)

So does this: http://demonwiki.org/Family+at+other+clubs

Uncle - Nephew
Colin Niven - Les Reeves (North Melbourne)
Ray Niven - John Reeves (North Melbourne/St Kilda)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

This says he was: https://australianfootball.com/players/player/john+reeves/7729

John Reeves

Family links
Les Reeves (Brother)Michael Reeves (Son)Colin Niven (Uncle)Ray Niven (Uncle)Josh Caddy (Grandson)

So does this: http://demonwiki.org/Family+at+other+clubs

Uncle - Nephew
Colin Niven - Les Reeves (North Melbourne)
Ray Niven - John Reeves (North Melbourne/St Kilda)

I've seen those plenty of times but cross referencing doesn't conclusively state the connection.

I've looked on various trees on Ancestry to see if either name pops up in the same tree but they don't.

Further to that, if there is confirmation, Josh Caddy should also be referred to as a great-great-nephew of Colin and Ray.

 

[rbartlett]

So in 1891-1893 Richmond had a player called William McLaverty, or perhaps William McClaverty (as written in club's 1891 Annual Report).
The Age calls him McCaverty in a public notice asking for the return of a lost gold locket in July 1891.
He was at Port Melbourne FC in 1890.
Solved. See post 1436

 

[RedmanWasHere]

The Age calls him McCaverty

Presumably good at filling in people's teeth.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I've seen those plenty of times but cross referencing doesn't conclusively state the connection.

I've looked on various trees on Ancestry to see if either name pops up in the same tree but they don't.
Further to that, if there is confirmation, Josh Caddy should also be referred to as a great-great-nephew of Colin and Ray.

I'm pretty skeptical about the uncle claim...
Colin and Ray Niven were the children of Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947). If they are both uncles of John Reeves then John Reeves must be the son of one of their sisters.
Their female siblings that I can find on BDM/Ancestry were (there are also five sons including Colin and Ray)
1. Clarice Margaret Niven (1898 - 1964) m William Johnstone Rooney
2. Isabel Kate Niven (1900 - 1989) m Alfred Reginald Seuling
3. Thelma Joyce Niven (1914 -1999) m Alan Angrove Fitcher
...no Reeves connections show up (there is no Vic BDM record of a Niven ever marrying a Reeves)

Looking at John Norman Reeves (1929 - 1970), his parents were George Norman Reeves (1905 - 1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903 - 1963)
(note: Myrtle Ivy re-married after his death - to John Joseph Vincent)
Uncles would be siblings/spouses of female siblings of John's parents who are:
Father's side
Harold Henry Reeves (1896–1957) - half sibling
Harry Cole m Eileen May Reeves (1902–1950)
Mother's side
William Stanley Love (b 1901)
Charles Alfred Erickson m Olive Alma Blanche Love (1901-1948)
..again no match

It is always possible that I've missed a re-marriage (or a relative) somewhere but I strongly suspect that any relationship (if there is one at all) is more distant than that of uncle

 

[the croucher]

I'm pretty skeptical about the uncle claim...
Colin and Ray Niven were the children of Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947). If they are both uncles of John Reeves then John Reeves must be the son of one of their sisters.
Their female siblings that I can find on BDM/Ancestry were (there are also five sons including Colin and Ray)
1. Clarice Margaret Niven (1898 - 1964) m William Johnstone Rooney
2. Isabel Kate Niven (1900 - 1989) m Alfred Reginald Seuling
3. Thelma Joyce Niven (1914 -1999) m Alan Angrove Fitcher
...no Reeves connections show up (there is no Vic BDM record of a Niven ever marrying a Reeves)

Looking at John Norman Reeves (1929 - 1970), his parents were George Norman Reeves (1905 - 1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903 - 1963)
(note: Myrtle Ivy re-married after his death - to John Joseph Vincent)
Uncles would be siblings/spouses of female siblings of John's parents who are:
Father's side
Harold Henry Reeves (1896–1957) - half sibling
Harry Cole m Eileen May Reeves (1902–1950)
Mother's side
William Stanley Love (b 1901)
Charles Alfred Erickson m Olive Alma Blanche Love (1901-1948)
..again no match

It is always possible that I've missed a re-marriage (or a relative) somewhere but I strongly suspect that any relationship (if there is one at all) is more distant than that of uncle

Good detective work. I had also started checking BDMs and Ancestry for clues, but couldn't find any direct link to confirm "uncle" status.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So in 1891-1893 Richmond had a player called William McLaverty, or perhaps William McClaverty (as written in club's 1891 Annual Report).
The Age calls him McCaverty in a public notice asking for the return of a lost gold locket in July 1891.
He was at Port Melbourne FC in 1890.

There really only appears to be one possibility:
William Thomas McLaverty
Born 1867 Melbourne, Victoria
Died 20 Feb 1922 Kew, Victoria (see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4699185)
Occupation: Carpenter

note: The family registered births using both McClaverty and McLaverty but William was always registered using McLaverty in BDM and electoral rolls.

Almost all football records (as far as I can see he played for Union Jack, then Port Melb, then Richmond and then from mid 1893 Albion United) seem to use the surname McClaverty.

 

[35Daicos]

I'm pretty skeptical about the uncle claim...
Colin and Ray Niven were the children of Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947). If they are both uncles of John Reeves then John Reeves must be the son of one of their sisters.
Their female siblings that I can find on BDM/Ancestry were (there are also five sons including Colin and Ray)
1. Clarice Margaret Niven (1898 - 1964) m William Johnstone Rooney
2. Isabel Kate Niven (1900 - 1989) m Alfred Reginald Seuling
3. Thelma Joyce Niven (1914 -1999) m Alan Angrove Fitcher
...no Reeves connections show up (there is no Vic BDM record of a Niven ever marrying a Reeves)

Looking at John Norman Reeves (1929 - 1970), his parents were George Norman Reeves (1905 - 1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903 - 1963)
(note: Myrtle Ivy re-married after his death - to John Joseph Vincent)
Uncles would be siblings/spouses of female siblings of John's parents who are:
Father's side
Harold Henry Reeves (1896–1957) - half sibling
Harry Cole m Eileen May Reeves (1902–1950)
Mother's side
William Stanley Love (b 1901)
Charles Alfred Erickson m Olive Alma Blanche Love (1901-1948)
..again no match

It is always possible that I've missed a re-marriage (or a relative) somewhere but I strongly suspect that any relationship (if there is one at all) is more distant than that of uncle

Here's a couple of Colin Niven's death notices from The Age (3 Dec. 1968), where a nephew and nieces are mentioned, but I'm not sure that it helps at all: https://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19681203&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

It says "Dearly loved brother of Jack, brother-in-law of Daisy, loved uncle of Jenny and John" and "dearly loved brother of Kate, brother-in-law of Alf, and loving uncle of Carol and June". Les Reeves died the previous year.

Edit: Alan Angove Fitcher, who married Thelma Joyce Niven played 98 games for Fitzroy:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alan_Fitcher
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Alan+Fitcher/4957

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'm pretty skeptical about the uncle claim...

Looking at John Norman Reeves (1929 - 1970), his parents were George Norman Reeves (1905 - 1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903 - 1963)
(note: Myrtle Ivy re-married after his death - to John Joseph Vincent)
Uncles would be siblings/spouses of female siblings of John's parents who are:
Father's side
Harold Henry Reeves (1896–1957) - half sibling
Harry Cole m Eileen May Reeves (1902–1950)

Found one person I missed but still no matches for the Niven / Reeves families
Death notice for George Norman Reeves mother, Mary Monica (nee Hewitt), can be seen here: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2TNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5681,1815214
It lists an additional sibling for George Norman Reeves (thus an uncle of John Norman Reeves) - William John Reeves (1899-1967)

 

[the croucher]

Found one person I missed but still no matches for the Niven / Reeves families
Death notice for George Norman Reeves mother, Mary Monica (nee Hewitt), can be seen here: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2TNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5681,1815214
It lists an additional sibling for George Norman Reeves (thus an uncle of John Norman Reeves) - William John Reeves (1899-1967)

The death notice in 1974 for William John's widow (Jessie Maude Reeves) is visible in deaths column
immediately to the left of this:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=H9FaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MpIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2090,2394326

Nothing evident which would help us clarify the matter, or not that I can see.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

This says he was: https://australianfootball.com/players/player/john+reeves/7729
John Reeves
Family links
Les Reeves (Brother)Michael Reeves (Son)Colin Niven (Uncle)Ray Niven (Uncle)Josh Caddy (Grandson)

So does this: http://demonwiki.org/Family+at+other+clubs
Uncle - Nephew
Colin Niven - Les Reeves (North Melbourne)
Ray Niven - John Reeves (North Melbourne/St Kilda)

Just looked at this again - Les Reeves is definitely not John Reeves' brother - not even a cousin as far as I can tell.

 

[35Daicos]

Just looked at this again - Les Reeves is definitely not John Reeves' brother - not even a cousin as far as I can tell.

Interesting! This is what it says on Boyles' website: http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article68-Jock-Spencer-The-Flying-Kangaroo

INJURY STRIKES
Missing the 1952 VFL finals was disappointing for the supporters but worse news was in store. In December, Jock and three of his team mates were involved in a serious motor accident in Curzon Street, North Melbourne. ‘The Argus’ carried the full details…

“Four North Melbourne footballers, were injured last night when their car crashed into a tree in North Melbourne. Three of them are in Royal Melbourne Hospital with possible fractures of the skull. They are : John Reeves, interstate follower-condition serious…Les Reeves, half-back, his brother-condition serious…Jock Spencer, interstate full forward. The fourth man, Pat Kelly, suffered minor injuries, and was due to go home early this morning.

Note: There are conflicting views as to whether John and Len Reeves were actually related as stated in the above newspaper report.

Edit: The Argus then had this to say "John Reeves, ruckman, who fractured his jaw and had several stitches in cuts under his eye and across his mouth, was reported yesterday to be "improving."

Half-back flanker Les Reeves, no relation to John, has a lacerated ear and cuts on his face, but his condition is "good.""

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23219042 (3 Dec. 1952)

So the very next day after saying the two were brothers The Argus corrected it ^
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23209622 (2 Dec. 1952)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Interesting! ...
Note: There are conflicting views as to whether John and Len Reeves were actually related as stated in the above newspaper report.

Although the newspaper was clearly confused at the time, from Ancestry it is clear that:

Leslie Charles Reeves (born 22 Jun 1923) has parents Harold Leonard Reeves (1892–1953) and Ellen Louise Smith (1899–1962) - married in UK in 1919
Harold's death notice (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206907096) mentions his two children (includes Leslie but not John)

John Norman Reeves (born 2 Sep 1929) has parents George Norman Reeves (1905–1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903–1963) - married in 1927
George's death notice (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205184214) mentions his two children (includes John but not Leslie)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I'm pretty skeptical about the uncle claim...
Colin and Ray Niven were the children of Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947). If they are both uncles of John Reeves then John Reeves must be the son of one of their sisters.
Their female siblings that I can find on BDM/Ancestry were (there are also five sons including Colin and Ray)
1. Clarice Margaret Niven (1898 - 1964) m William Johnstone Rooney
2. Isabel Kate Niven (1900 - 1989) m Alfred Reginald Seuling
3. Thelma Joyce Niven (1914 -1999) m Alan Angrove Fitcher
...no Reeves connections show up (there is no Vic BDM record of a Niven ever marrying a Reeves)

Looking at John Norman Reeves (1929 - 1970), his parents were George Norman Reeves (1905 - 1938) and Myrtle Ivy May Love (1903 - 1963)
(note: Myrtle Ivy re-married after his death - to John Joseph Vincent)
Uncles would be siblings/spouses of female siblings of John's parents who are:
Father's side
Harold Henry Reeves (1896–1957) - half sibling
Harry Cole m Eileen May Reeves (1902–1950)
Mother's side
William Stanley Love (b 1901)
Charles Alfred Erickson m Olive Alma Blanche Love (1901-1948)
..again no match

It is always possible that I've missed a re-marriage (or a relative) somewhere but I strongly suspect that any relationship (if there is one at all) is more distant than that of uncle

I have looked at the same trees many times and I saw the same names to no avail.

 

[35Daicos]

It would be interesting to know where the story of the Niven and Reeves "family connection" came from in the first place!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

It would be interesting to know where the story of the Niven and Reeves "family connection" came from in the first place!

That's my biggest point of confusion.

 

[35Daicos]

That's my biggest point of confusion.

At least the Les Reeves-John Reeves "connection" story has been sorted out, and the records can be amended.

On another note, I see the AFL Season Guide still names Jack B. O'Rourke (instead of Basil) as the grandfather of Hawthorn's Jonathan O'Rourke. After you raised the issue last year I passed on the information to the AFL; what was presented to them seemed rather conclusive (especially as there had been an article on their website which said "There's some football genes in the family that might explain O'Rourke's talent.

Stephen's dad (and Jonathan's grandfather) is Basil O'Rourke, who played four games for Richmond in 1951. Basil's brother, Jack, was a star for the Tigers in 44 games between 1949-53, kicking 134 goals." (the link doesn't work now but that was meant to be on the AFL website).

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...fficial-records.1089761/page-25#post-49093735

Very strange that this didn't get changed, but it's well worth following up again.

AustralianFootball.com does seem to have it right, though I'm not sure how long they've shown it this way: https://australianfootball.com/players/player/jonathan+o%27rourke/17214

 

[rbartlett]

So wiki and AFLTables says that Ted Fisher, played for StKilda in 1907 and then next played in 1918 for Richmond.
A gap of 11 years. Has this been confirmed they were the same person ?
We know he went to war at one point, and his debut with Richmond is mentioned here but no mention of a prev StKilda game. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242738732

This lovely article talks about him and says he was also a Preston player in 1913 prior to the War
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93811651

It may be all above board, but thought I'd flag it

 

[35Daicos]

So wiki and AFLTables says that Ted Fisher, played for StKilda in 1907 and then next played in 1918 for Richmond.
A gap of 11 years. Has this been confirmed they were the same person ?
We know he went to war at one point, and his debut with Richmond is mentioned here but no mention of a prev StKilda game. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242738732

This lovely article talks about him and says he was also a Preston player in 1913 prior to the War
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93811651

It may be all above board, but thought I'd flag it

This is what it says about him in the Football Record, Rd. 4 2005 (p. 10): Ted Fisher represented St Kilda twice in 1907. After appearing against Fitzroy at the Junction Oval in round 17, he left to play for Northcote in the VFA. Later, he joined Preston in the same competition before enlisting in World War I. After leaving the army, he played one match for the Tigers against the Dons at the East Melbourne Cricket Ground in round eight, 1918, just under 10 years after leaving the Saints.

This ^ doesn't match what the records now say about his VFL appearances, but in the Rd. 15 2017 Record he gets a brief mention as having had a ten year gap between games, and a career tally of 5 matches (which agrees with what the records say).

Edit: I'm pretty sure he's Edward Edgar Fisher in the army records. Since he was born at Richmond and living at Brunswick when he signed up (which matches what the article says) it seems to be the right one. His age looks about right as well. The Encyclopedia calls him Ted. E. Fisher.

Interesting to note that the article also suggests he had been given a clearance to Richmond prior to the war. B. Herbert and Fisher (Richmond) played for a police team in September 1913: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7237718

 

[the croucher]

This is what it says about him in the Football Record, Rd. 4 2005 (p. 10): Ted Fisher represented St Kilda twice in 1907. After appearing against Fitzroy at the Junction Oval in round 17, he left to play for Northcote in the VFA. Later, he joined Preston in the same competition before enlisting in World War I. After leaving the army, he played one match for the Tigers against the Dons at the East Melbourne Cricket Ground in round eight, 1918, just under 10 years after leaving the Saints.

This ^ doesn't match what the records now say about his VFL appearances, but in the Rd. 15 2017 Record he gets a brief mention as having had a ten year gap between games, and a career tally of 5 matches (which agrees with what the records say).

Edit: I'm pretty sure he's Edward Edgar Fisher in the army records. Since he was born at Richmond and living at Brunswick when he signed up (which matches what the article says) it seems to be the right one. His age looks about right as well. The Encyclopedia calls him Ted. E. Fisher.

Interesting to note that the article also suggests he had been given a clearance to Richmond prior to the war. B. Herbert and Fisher (Richmond) played for a police team in September 1913: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7237718

This June 1918 article (see near bottom of first column) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242516623
notes a permit date of 1912, and here on page 29 of VFL Record Rnd 8 1912 is the exact ref
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/141957
a permit from Northcote to Richmond.

 

[the croucher]

This June 1918 article (see near bottom of first column) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242516623
notes a permit date of 1912, and here on page 29 of VFL Record Rnd 8 1912 is the exact ref
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/141957
a permit from Northcote to Richmond.

I was wondering if a ref to him getting permit from St Kilda to Northcote would show up and it has, in June 1909:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196119674

Interesting that he is listed as G E Fisher !

Now to try and figure out if those initials are a typo, or if indeed we have two separate players.