Round ball code talk

Remove this Banner Ad

Chewy316 said:
Fee costs for juniors is also an issue to a point but junior participation is pretty strong last I checked. And there are always ways around the fees - it is an excuse rather than an explanation imo.
Click to expand...
Fees: Around $650 for a 6yo kid at West Torrens Birkalla.
Pushing it a bit I reckon!
 
Lawnchair Larry said:
Fees: Around $650 for a 6yo kid at West Torrens Birkalla.
Pushing it a bit I reckon!
Click to expand...
Expect that to double by the time you get to u/12s.

Unfortunately since pay TV dollars started flooding through in Europe, Australia junior development has been left behind

Even if a-league clubs started running serious development programs from 12s upwards they just don't have the same financial incentives as European clubs.

For example, Inter just sold Casadei to Chelsea, transfer fee was reported to be in the range of €15 million plus €5 million in add-ons.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Cesare Casadei - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Not a bad return on investment for a junior that joined Inter as an u/15. With those sort of returns you can afford u/15 coaches with decades of top flight experience.

Let's say we put in world class junior coaching at Adelaide United tonight and by 2026 they developed the next Messi who was carving up the a-league. At best currently on the transfer market they'd struggle to get a transfer directly into the top flight leagues so would be lucky to get close to $2m in an European feeder league which reduces future investment.

It would take 10 years of investment to get Australian juniors to be taken serious, results at junior world cups would have to get back on par with the 90s and we'd need a constant production line of talent making it in the top leagues for our juniors to be considered on a global stage.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Chewy316 said:
The state development squads come together in Coffs Harbour yearly for a play off tournament but 1 week of competitive matches pushing these kids in an entire season is not enough if you want to fast track the development of the young players. Of course, funding is a massive hurdle to making this happen. But if the power brokers are serious about making Australian football a powerhouse they would implement a similar styled scheme.
Click to expand...
The A League clubs said the private owners since 2005-06 had lost between $250-$300m in the period before they won rights to control the A League from the FFA at the end of 2020. There isn't massive incentive for them to build expensive academy structures from U/12 onward if they lose substantial amount of money every year and don't have deep pockets.

The City Group are the obvious ones who can carry the loss. But most can't and a lot of A League club owners are hidden behind an opaque ownership structure, so we can't really see who owns some of the clubs and what resources they can bring to the table.

The old NSL clubs had development squad and teams in local clubs from U/8 onward. So it wasn't that uncommon that a couple of star players from one club had played for 10 years together in the juniors then a few years in the club's NSL team, then played for the Socceroos together. That had some huge advantages over the current situation.

You also had the fully funded AIS men's program between 1981-2013 where scholarships were handed out and kids spent 12 - 24 months together. That hasn't been replicated since the AIS cut these sports wide scholarships and now just offer individual scholarships.

Chewy316 said:
Fee costs for juniors is also an issue to a point but junior participation is pretty strong last I checked. And there are always ways around the fees - it is an excuse rather than an explanation imo.
Click to expand...
I don't know the situation in SA but I do know in Sydney, where the biggest group of Socceroos players come from, that its bloody expensive and has been for about 20 years, once again post NSL days and the old NSL clubs no longer doing as much development stuff.

I first became aware of how expensive it was in Sydney around 2005 when a mate's kid wanted to join a local club and it was almost $2000 for a year.

In 2015 I stayed a couple of days at another mate's place, normally don't stay with this mate, and he told me about his 10 or 11 year old son's local club set up. Being an economist he was invited to become Treasurer of the club, so we had a really good discussion about junior soccer set up in Sydney.

His son is on the autism spectrum and has trouble relating to / communicating with other kids, he had had some counselling, said he liked soccer so my mate took him to the club in upper north shore of Sydney. In 2015 he was paying $2,800 for his lessons, subs, and
2 x - jerseys, shorts, socks, and club hoodies,
a soccer ball and a pair of boots. I said that is bloody expensive and he said his mate's kid plays Aussie rules and it costs him all up abou $400-$500 for his kid to play footy. My mate and his wife have good paying jobs so they could afford it and it helped his son with his autism issues relating to other kids so he said it was worth it. Last time we spoke about this was in 2019 it was about $3,200 and his son had become a good player was winning trophies and making regional Sydney sides and his ability to get on with other kids had improved out of sight over those 4 or 5 years.

My mate was in the position to pay such fees. A lot of others aren't.

2016 SMH article
www.smh.com.au

NSW youth football registration fees prompt questions about club funding models

NSW parents can pay up to $2400 for their children to play elite youth football. But questions have been raised about how the fees are spent.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au
Questions have been raised about the funding arrangements of football clubs in the elite youth National Premier League and how registration fees of up to $2400 per child are being spent.

More than 8300 players from the age of nine to 16 are registered in the Football NSW youth and children's programs, for which clubs are permitted to charge fees of up to $2400 a year, to be reinvested into the same programs under the rules of Football NSW.

2020 story
www.smh.com.au

'Winning at any cost': Inside the cut-throat and 'cliquey' world of youth soccer

Football insiders and parents have taken aim at Football NSW's system to develop youth players, accusing clubs of running an unfair system.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

Parents and football insiders have taken aim at Football NSW's system to develop youth players, accusing clubs of running a cliquey and "cut-throat" system not in the best interests of children or the game of soccer. Multiple parents have described an unfair recruitment process for the skills acquisition programs (SAPs) and National Premier Leagues (NPL) teams, a cavalier attitude to children's wellbeing and an emphasis on money.

Under a strategy in place since 2010, Football NSW has licensed 48 clubs to provide SAPs for children aged nine to 13 at a cost of $1500 a season. Once players outgrow the SAP phase, they can compete for places in a junior NPL team, the tier below the A-League, with fees set at $2650. Jim Apostolovski, the immediate past-president of Leichhardt Tigers Junior Soccer Club and a senior figure in the sport in NSW, said he had never supported the SAP system and agreed problems were rife because clubs were interested in "winning at any cost".

And from 2 days ago
www.smh.com.au

At up to $2000 a season, will the cost of kids’ soccer keep a cap on the boom?

It’s soccer’s moment in the sun, but the costs of playing can be prohibitively expensive, up to $2000 for kids.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au
 
Last edited:
dirty2 said:
If they rang me... Said I got robbed and needed to go home.. would tell them to go * themselves...
Click to expand...

From what I have read, it was more than just a simple robbery. His family were home at the time, and the intruders were armed.
 
For me, this R16 started with 4 matches with clear favorites and 4 even matches (or with a slight favorite).

Clear favorites: NED, ARG, FRA, BRA.

I thought that SEN beating ENG wouldn’t be a surprise.

The fact that ENG defeated SEN soundly makes it the most impressive R16 victory so far.

FRA has beaten the weakest team to qualify. NED and, specially ARG, had more trouble than they should have had to qualify.

I expect an even match between JAP and HRV. My question on KOR is for how long they can handle BRA attacking waves relentlessly striking on them.

Now, of course, I could be completely wrong. Worse, being soccer, I can be right, but the games simply go wild.

Yet, this is how I view the 2022 World Cup R16.
 
GremioPower said:
For me, this R16 started with 4 matches with clear favorites and 4 even matches (or with a slight favorite).

Clear favorites: NED, ARG, FRA, BRA.

I thought that SEN beating ENG wouldn’t be a surprise.

The fact that ENG defeated SEN soundly makes it the most impressive R16 victory so far.

FRA has beaten the weakest team to qualify. NED and, specially ARG, had more trouble than they should have had to qualify.

I expect an even match between JAP and HRV. My question on KOR is for how long they can handle BRA attacking waves relentlessly striking on them.

Now, of course, I could be completely wrong. Worse, being soccer, I can be right, but the games simply go wild.

Yet, this is how I view the 2022 World Cup R16.
Click to expand...
I assume you expect Spain to beat Morocco and Portugal to beat Switzerland although that is pretty even.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
I assume you expect Spain to beat Morocco and Portugal to beat Switzerland although that is pretty even.
Click to expand...

For me, the slight favorites were HRV and ENG. I see MAR-ESP and POR-SUI as even. In all 4 matches, though, any winner wouldn’t surprise me.

I actually have a pretty big prejudice against this Portuguese team. So far, it has been proven wrong, but I’m holding it for one extra round. If POR goes through, I surrender.

On MAR-ESP, I have been quite impressed with the Moroccans. I think they will be the hardest test the Spaniards will face so far.

—

I don’t pic necessarily the favourites, so my tips were:

USA, AUS, FRA, ENG, JAP, BRA, MAR, SUI.
 
GremioPower said:
For me, this R16 started with 4 matches with clear favorites and 4 even matches (or with a slight favorite).

Clear favorites: NED, ARG, FRA, BRA.

I thought that SEN beating ENG wouldn’t be a surprise.

The fact that ENG defeated SEN soundly makes it the most impressive R16 victory so far.

FRA has beaten the weakest team to qualify. NED and, specially ARG, had more trouble than they should have had to qualify.

I expect an even match between JAP and HRV. My question on KOR is for how long they can handle BRA attacking waves relentlessly striking on them.

Now, of course, I could be completely wrong. Worse, being soccer, I can be right, but the games simply go wild.

Yet, this is how I view the 2022 World Cup R16.
Click to expand...
Senegal with Mane might have won. Without him they are a shadow.
 
GremioPower said:
For me, the slight favorites were HRV and ENG. I see MAR-ESP and POR-SUI as even. In all 4 matches, though, any winner wouldn’t surprise me.

I actually have a pretty big prejudice against this Portuguese team. So far, it has been proven wrong, but I’m holding it for one extra round. If POR goes through, I surrender.

On MAR-ESP, I have been quite impressed with the Moroccans. I think they will be the hardest test the Spaniards will face so far.

—

I don’t pic necessarily the favourites, so my tips were:

USA, AUS, FRA, ENG, JAP, BRA, MAR, SUI.
Click to expand...
Wow we strongly disagree on Portugal. I think they might take the whole thing.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

RussellEbertHandball said:
The old NSL clubs had development squad and teams in local clubs from U/8 onward. So it wasn't that uncommon that a couple of star players from one club had played for 10 years together in the juniors then a few years in the club's NSL team, then played for the Socceroos together. That had some huge advantages over the current situation.
Click to expand...

I can remember Adelaide City being able to collect close to $1m a season on the back on Aurelio & Tony Vidmar, (Belgium clubs), Carl Veart (Sheffield United) and Damian Mori (Borussia Mönchengladbach) which was needed to help the club break even.

Although with Damian I think the transfer wasn't as lucrative to City when Mönchengladbach changed coaches mid season and the new coach wasn't keen on Damian.

It also helped City draw talent as kids coming through could see Adelaide City as a stepping stone to Europe.

RussellEbertHandball said:
I don't know the situation in SA but I do know in Sydney, where the biggest group of Socceroos players come from, that its bloody expensive and has been for about 20 years, once again post NSL days and the old NSL clubs no longer doing as much development stuff.

I first became aware of how expensive it was in Sydney around 2005 when a mate's kid wanted to join a local club and it was almost $2000 for a year.

My mate and his wife have good paying jobs so they could afford it and it helped his son with his autism issues relating to other kids so he said it was worth it. Last time we spoke in 2019 it was about $3,200 and his son had become a good player was winning trophies and making regional Sydney sides and his ability to get on with other kids had improved out of sight over those 4 or 5 years.

My mate was in the position to pay such fees. A lot of others aren't.

[/URL]
Click to expand...

Most parents in SA, would be paying $1-2k per kid at a club. Of that money my best guess would be approximately
  • $100 would go to the FFSA, FSA.
  • $200 would go to equipment uniforms etc
  • $50 would go to ref payments
  • $100 would go to coaching directors, coaching training programs etc.
and majority of the rest would most likely go to paying first team players.

Most clubs wouldn't be paying junior coaches much more than $2k/ year and suspect most of those payments would be waiver of registration fees as the coach is a parent.

Although I have heard of some junior coaches starting to get offered $3-5k per season for their time to coach a team that doesn't include their child.

On top of that, there's plenty of parents paying $1-2k on additional academy programs that run roughly 10-20 weeks (usually 2-4 programs per season). These parents happily pay that in the hope it gives their kids that extra chance to make it to State selected sides etc.

By the time you throw in boots, petrol running around etc I'd say most of these families are easily spending $5k/ year trying to keep their kids dreams alive. Not factoring travel costs/ accommodation if they actually make selective sides.

Most would argue this is pretty cheap, elite swimming or cycling programs would be on par if not more (depending how much you can recoup on selling your bike second hand).

I'd also hate to think what quality tennis coaching would cost.

Sad really, as a kid growing up, sports used to be about helping the poor, these days feels like they make you poor 🤣

​

 
Vagabond0 said:
Not a bad return on investment for a junior that joined Inter as an u/15. With those sort of returns you can afford u/15 coaches with decades of top flight experience.

Let's say we put in world class junior coaching at Adelaide United tonight and by 2026 they developed the next Messi who was carving up the a-league. At best currently on the transfer market they'd struggle to get a transfer directly into the top flight leagues so would be lucky to get close to $2m in an European feeder league which reduces future investment.

It would take 10 years of investment to get Australian juniors to be taken serious, results at junior world cups would have to get back on par with the 90s and we'd need a constant production line of talent making it in the top leagues for our juniors to be considered on a global stage.
Click to expand...

Between the NSL clubs’ childhood to first grade system and the AIS, we had all this 20-30 years ago.

Clubs like Melbourne Croatia and Wollongong were able to upgrade their stadiums with transfer fees received for the likes of Mark Viduka and Scott Chipperfield.

The player-agent Peter Jess, who owned the majority stake in the short-lived Carlton SC, was still receiving cuts of transfer fees for future clauses he’d installed for the likes of Marco Bresciano, Vince Grella, Josh Kennedy and Simon Colosimo long after the entity itself had been wound up.

Now we’re effectively starting from the ground up, or in the very early stages of doing so, some 10-17 years after the A-League replaced these proven pipelines.
 
Garibaldi Red said:
From what I have read, it was more than just a simple robbery. His family were home at the time, and the intruders were armed.
Click to expand...
Oh 😳 well I take my comment back... Hope they are all good... That's ****ed... I know a few players over the last few years have had issues with that sort of thing it's ****ed.
 
tribey said:
Between the NSL clubs’ childhood to first grade system and the AIS, we had all this 20-30 years ago.

Clubs like Melbourne Croatia and Wollongong were able to upgrade their stadiums with transfer fees received for the likes of Mark Viduka and Scott Chipperfield.

The player-agent Peter Jess, who owned the majority stake in the short-lived Carlton SC, was still receiving cuts of transfer fees for future clauses he’d installed for the likes of Marco Bresciano, Vince Grella, Josh Kennedy and Simon Colosimo long after the entity itself had been wound up.

Now we’re effectively starting from the ground up, or in the very early stages of doing so, some 10-17 years after the A-League replaced these proven pipelines.
Click to expand...
No argument from me, I always thought the link between the a-league and the negative impact on Australian youth teams was fairly obvious.

They tried to build it from the top down, rather than from the roots upwards. Which basically put a ceiling on how many kids could break through to play seniors in a national comp.

I'd love to know how many kids are still leaving Australia as teenagers trying to cut a break overseas.

I've met a few families over the years. One had his lad go to the US on a college scholarship, which I thought was a great RoI for the family.

Another family from Melbourne had their lads in European academies (in Italy and Spain) from age 15-23, fully sponsored places, but the kids never got a professional contract and are now back in Australia working 9-5 jobs.

A couple felt like they were getting strung along by English academy teams, asked to pay $5-10k a year to keep them in their programs, felt like they were being exploited to me.
 
3 or 4 years ago I wrote on the Footy Industry board's non AFL sports discussion thread that the FFA or old NSL clubs should set up a national 2nd division with the aim being for the old NSL clubs to get some recognition for what they did for the game and get back on the national stage. I said it had to be set up in such a way that revenue from crowds of 3k to 5k would be the norm and a bit of TV $$ would make the league viable.

I based the 3k to 5k figure on having lived in Walkerville for 5 years last decade, and sometimes when going for a run, instead of heading to the CBD, I went the other way and many times seeing 2k to 3k crowds at Marden Sports Complex, home ground of NPLSA club Adelaide Blue Eagles for games played there. They have over 2,000 seats and capacity is 6,000.

Of course the meat and 1.5 veg AFL only type usual suspects, said it was a stupid idea and would never work. They had no understanding of niche markets, you don't have to try and be the biggest sport or biggest competition to be successful. I did say it wouldn't be a promotion and relegation league to the A League.

Looks like some wheels have been put in motion to start up a 2nd division. I'm not sure about the promotion and relegation concept, especially in the first 5 years during the establishment period as there are likely to be huge differences in size of the clubs between first and second division. Maybe some of those old development structures will come back into vogue from these community clubs.

Thanks to GC2015 who wrote this on the Association Football board thread about the World Cup Group D teams (ie Oz's group)

I think you'll find they'll (Adelaide City) be one of the teams invited to join the National Second Division competition that's expected to be established in the next year or two, which will mean we're very likely to see Adelaide derbies in the future. Here are the 12 teams that are expected to be a part of the founding members of the NSD who will be given the opportunity to be promoted into the A-League each and every season:

New South Wales (4)
  • APIA Leichardt
  • Sydney Olympic
  • Sydney United 58
  • Wollongong Wolves
Victoria (3)
  • Heidelberg United
  • Melbourne Knights
  • South Melbourne
Queensland (2)
  • Brisbane Strikers
  • Gold Coast United
ACT (1)
  • Canberra FC
South Australia (1)
  • Adelaide City
Tasmania (1)
  • Hobart FC

It'll be nice to see former A-League team Gold Coast United have the opportunity to re-enter the A-League and right the wrongs of previous management instead of just being remembered as a joke. I think the Gold Coast as a city has changed a fair bit since the old GCU days and I'd expect the team to do a lot better this time around. Like Adelaide City, the Brisbane Strikers will also create the opportunity for a genuine local derby with the Brisbane Roar, who have had the city of Brisbane to themselves for a while now. Obviously the introduction of old NSL rivalries like South Melbourne vs Melbourne Knights adds another layer of intrigue to this movement and including teams in Canberra/Hobart gives it a genuine national feel. Just missing a team from the NT but who knows if they'll ever be in a position to genuine run a professional sports team.

Anyway. Back on point. Queensland and Western Australia need to step up their game in terms of producing Socceroos!
 
Vagabond0 said:
No argument from me, I always thought the link between the a-league and the negative impact on Australian youth teams was fairly obvious.

They tried to build it from the top down, rather than from the roots upwards. Which basically put a ceiling on how many kids could break through to play seniors in a national comp.

I'd love to know how many kids are still leaving Australia as teenagers trying to cut a break overseas.

I've met a few families over the years. One had his lad go to the US on a college scholarship, which I thought was a great RoI for the family.

Another family from Melbourne had their lads in European academies (in Italy and Spain) from age 15-23, fully sponsored places, but the kids never got a professional contract and are now back in Australia working 9-5 jobs.

A couple felt like they were getting strung along by English academy teams, asked to pay $5-10k a year to keep them in their programs, felt like they were being exploited to me.
Click to expand...

Hopefully the FFA don’t use these results as an excuse to wallpaper over the cracks. While Arnold and others calling for some long overdue investment in the game is a good start, there’s also been some giddy comparisons to 2006, which even without context is a fairly long bow to draw.

If the third choice goalie didn’t weave his wacky magic against Peru on neutral territory, you wonder where the game would be over the next 4 years.

They dodged that bullet and now must capitalise.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Sydney United 58
Click to expand...

At the recent cup final the boneheads who support this mob almost singlehandedly set back the cause of the original top flight clubs by 20 years, ticking every box of normie mistrust of the game and its ethnic roots, replete with fascist salutes.

A real “good one fellas” moment.
 
GremioPower said:
I expect an even match between JAP and HRV. My question on KOR is for how long they can handle BRA attacking waves relentlessly striking on them.

Now, of course, I could be completely wrong. Worse, being soccer, I can be right, but the games simply go wild.

Yet, this is how I view the 2022 World Cup R16.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see if Korea and Japan's fast counter attacking moves they have shown so far, catch out both opponents. There are 3 or 4 players for both nations who have blistering speed and can create real havoc.
 
Last edited:
RussellEbertHandball said:
3 or 4 years ago I wrote on the Footy Industry board's non AFL sports discussion thread that the FFA or old NSL clubs should set up a national 2nd division with the aim being for the old NSL clubs to get some recognition for what they did for the game and get back on the national stage. I said it had to be set up in such a way that revenue from crowds of 3k to 5k would be the norm and a bit of TV $$ would make the league viable.

I based the 3k to 5k figure on having lived in Walkerville for 5 years last decade, and sometimes when going for a run, instead of heading to the CBD, I went the other way and many times seeing 2k to 3k crowds at Marden Sports Complex, home ground of NPLSA club Adelaide Blue Eagles for games played there. They have over 2,000 seats and capacity is 6,000.

Of course the meat and 1.5 veg AFL only type usual suspects, said it was a stupid idea and would never work. They had no understanding of niche markets, you don't have to try and be the biggest sport or biggest competition to be successful. I did say it wouldn't be a promotion and relegation league to the A League.

Looks like some wheels have been put in motion to start up a 2nd division. I'm not sure about the promotion and relegation concept, especially in the first 5 years during the establishment period as there are likely to be huge differences in size of the clubs between first and second division. Maybe some of those old development structures will come back into vogue from these community clubs.

Thanks to GC2015 who wrote this on the Association Football board thread about the World Cup Group D teams (ie Oz's group)

I think you'll find they'll (Adelaide City) be one of the teams invited to join the National Second Division competition that's expected to be established in the next year or two, which will mean we're very likely to see Adelaide derbies in the future. Here are the 12 teams that are expected to be a part of the founding members of the NSD who will be given the opportunity to be promoted into the A-League each and every season:

New South Wales (4)
  • APIA Leichardt
  • Sydney Olympic
  • Sydney United 58
  • Wollongong Wolves
Victoria (3)
  • Heidelberg United
  • Melbourne Knights
  • South Melbourne
Queensland (2)
  • Brisbane Strikers
  • Gold Coast United
ACT (1)
  • Canberra FC
South Australia (1)
  • Adelaide City
Tasmania (1)
  • Hobart FC

It'll be nice to see former A-League team Gold Coast United have the opportunity to re-enter the A-League and right the wrongs of previous management instead of just being remembered as a joke. I think the Gold Coast as a city has changed a fair bit since the old GCU days and I'd expect the team to do a lot better this time around. Like Adelaide City, the Brisbane Strikers will also create the opportunity for a genuine local derby with the Brisbane Roar, who have had the city of Brisbane to themselves for a while now. Obviously the introduction of old NSL rivalries like South Melbourne vs Melbourne Knights adds another layer of intrigue to this movement and including teams in Canberra/Hobart gives it a genuine national feel. Just missing a team from the NT but who knows if they'll ever be in a position to genuine run a professional sports team.

Anyway. Back on point. Queensland and Western Australia need to step up their game in terms of producing Socceroos!
Click to expand...

A “League Cup” competition between D-I and D-II teams could help both promoting the D-II league and its clubs and measuring their quality against the D-I clubs.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
It will be interesting to see if Korea and Japan's fast counter attacking moves they have shown so far, catch out both opponents. There are 3 or 4 players for both nations who have blistering speed and can create real havoc.
Click to expand...

I expect Japan to be successful. Korea, not so much.

I think Brazil’s pressure to be second-best behind Spain, if not the best in the comp. We recover the ball fast.

The difference between us and Spain is that we don’t do the tiki-taka. We pounce again and again and again.
 
GremioPower said:
A “League Cup” competition between D-I and D-II teams could help both promoting the D-II league and its clubs and measuring their quality against the D-I clubs.
Click to expand...
There is an FFA Cup competition, now called Australia Cup, took a long time to be set up, think 10 seasons after the A League was set up.

It includes the 10 or 11 A League teams, NZ team Wellington doesn't get a gig, and teams from the 8 state and territory federations, plus the Northern NSW Federation, which covers cities and towns totalling 1.5 million people, which is bigger than most state and territories federations measured by revenue and assets.

There are 32 teams that compete for the Cup and most if not all of the 14 in the post I took from the soccer board, would be in those 22 non A league teams.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top