National Reserves Competition

[SgtSchulz]

There is a lot of talk in South Australia currently about creating a National Reserves competition for AFL clubs due the Adelaide Crows dominating the SANFL finals at the moment (won first final by 72 and second by 54).

I'm not really fussed with the Crows dominating the SANFL. However I think a national reserves competition has a range of benefits.

1. Preserve integrity of lower levels.
   • Having a national reserves competition will allow the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and NEAFL to be a level playing field.
2. Ability to ease in new AFL teams.
   • Brining in a new club like Tasmania through the national reserve competition could prove a easier process than throwing a club straight into the AFL.
3. More consistent level of play for AFL reserve teams.
   • The weaker teams of state leagues often are at such a lower standard to AFL reserve teams that the exercise for the AFL reserve club is borderline a waste of time.
4. Remove top up players.
   • If a national competition were to eventuate clubs would not have to have a two class of players in the sides.
   • May result in larger AFL squads.

 

[madmug]

The AFL dumped the reserves comp because of the costs involved in running extra players & shunting them around the countryside.

 

[budge27]

Totally agree with the National reserves comp.

In the WAFL, Peel Thunder (Dockers reserves) are totally dominating the finals this year coming from 4th to play in the GF this week cause all the Dockers are playing. Last year it was the total opposite as Lyon made the Thunder rest all their Dockers and they got belted in both finals and went out in straight sets.

The current arrangement, especially in the WAFL & SANFL, totally stuffs the local comps with semi-pro players playing against fully professional players. Is this an even playing field?

I can't see the Northern states AFL teams players going back into the NEAFL and playing against a decent standard of opposition either...

The AFL needs to spend some of its $ on propping up a National reserves comp to create a level playing field across the country.

 

[NoobPie]

There is a lot of talk in South Australia currently about creating a National Reserves competition for AFL clubs due the Adelaide Crows dominating the SANFL finals at the moment (won first final by 72 and second by 54).

I'm not really fussed with the Crows dominating the SANFL. However I think a national reserves competition has a range of benefits.

1. Preserve integrity of lower levels.
   • Having a national reserves competition will allow the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and NEAFL to be a level playing field.
2. Ability to ease in new AFL teams.
   • Brining in a new club like Tasmania through the national reserve competition could prove a easier process than throwing a club straight into the AFL.
3. More consistent level of play for AFL reserve teams.
   • The weaker teams of state leagues often are at such a lower standard to AFL reserve teams that the exercise for the AFL reserve club is borderline a waste of time.
4. Remove top up players.
   • If a national competition were to eventuate clubs would not have to have a two class of players in the sides.
   • May result in larger AFL squads.

This is a great idea...which is why it would never happen

You could allow the other clubs to play - at a higher salary cap to reflect the absence of AFL players cycling through - in order to achieve balance. As you said, this would be a better pathway for future expansion.

I think you would still need top up players. Expanding AFL squads would have a similar effect of draining the state leagues. I would have it that top up players could not play at State League clubs

You could also, of course, structure it in a way that reduced the amount of travel, particular of West Australian clubs (all number of different conferencing etc)

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

This is another thing that those in the "traditional" states don't understand about the problems associated with running clubs in the northern states. I get the argument about costs - but from where I sit, in relation to my team, I just don't see that as a valid argument.

The Vic/SA/WA reserves NEVER have to travel. Ever. (Well, maybe up to Ballarat or Bendigo)

Ours do - and often to opposite ends of the country to our Seniors.

When our Seniors fly off to play a game in Melbourne or Adelaide or Perth, more often than not our reserves are also flying off to play a game in Brisbane, or Darwin, or Cairnes or Wagga or some place else.

With them has to go runners, physios, coaches, medicos, support staff, equipment etc. we have to book and pay for flights, transfers, hotels etc. as well.

A National Reserves competition would actually save us money as some of these costs could be folded in. If both teams are in Melbourne, you could probably get away with one set of physios and medicos. One set of runners - and get a bigger discount for booking more hotel rooms in a package.

It would also be a better quality competition than the one we currently compete in (though the standard is improving, it will never be the VFL) how do you accurately assess a player racking up 40+ possessions in the NEAFL? It is, after all, only the NEAFL and a listed player should be racking up monster numbers in such a competition.

So from where I sit - I say - bring it on, the sooner the better.

 

[pOleK]

One thing I would find difficult for a reserves system is the list size for clubs. I think this year we had 46 players listed (both main and rookie list) and at one point we only had 6 listed players running around in the reserves. Although a great idea, expanding list size or creating a top up system would be necessary and essential for clubs struggling with injuries, such as the Lions this year. But with the talent pool already being stretched (hopefully may fix itself in future years) it really becomes impracticable to run a national reserves competition.

 

[NoobPie]

One thing I would find difficult for a reserves system is the list size for clubs. I think this year we had 46 players listed (both main and rookie list) and at one point we only had 6 listed players running around in the reserves. Although a great idea, expanding list size or creating a top up system would be necessary and essential for clubs struggling with injuries, such as the Lions this year. But with the talent pool already being stretched (hopefully may fix itself in future years) it really becomes impracticable to run a national reserves competition.

In that case you'd have 16 top up players playing! Presumably this is what you did this year?

You'd still be flying the same number of players around.

I'd say for nsw/qld clubs you'd draw top ups from your top division but wouldn't be permitted to in Vic/sa/wa comps

 

[Ice-Wolf]

The AFL bastardisation of the VFA has claimed another scalp the Frankston Football Club is dead.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...e/news-story/3983720186d40b65166f9a16ce4324d1

Will Port Melbourne be next?

 

[madmug]

The AFL bastardisation of the VFA has claimed another scalp the Frankston Football Club is dead.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...e/news-story/3983720186d40b65166f9a16ce4324d1

Will Port Melbourne be next?

Thats very sad news. Could they possibly go back into a local suburban comp?

 

[telsor]

Thats very sad news. Could they possibly go back into a local suburban comp?

Probably depends on their creditors as much as anything. They'd own/control the club now.

Really, the independent VFL clubs should all just get out while they can. There is no real state Vic 'competition', and the finances of clubs like this reflect that...When most games are glorified training runs, sponsors are hard to attract.

I'm not really a fan of a national reserves comp, but it would be far better for 2nd tier football in Vic if they did create one.

 

[JohnZ]

National reserves comp: 16 a side, 20 min quarters. 2 hour broadcast leading into the main AFL game. Can't go wrong, and would preserve what we have left of the VFA (VFL), SANFL and WAFL

 

[telsor]

National reserves comp: 16 a side, 20 min quarters. 2 hour broadcast leading into the main AFL game. Can't go wrong, and would preserve what we have left of the VFA (VFL), SANFL and WAFL

16 a side/20 mins qtrs...coaches would want the reserves to play the same way as the main team, so no.

Broadcast...how much do you think you'd need to pay Ch7 to broadcast that?

 

[JohnZ]

16 a side/20 mins qtrs...coaches would want the reserves to play the same way as the main team, so no.

Broadcast...how much do you think you'd need to pay Ch7 to broadcast that?

Nothing. They pay for the production, and in return get a product with advertising $$$, more so than re-reuns of zumbo's just deserts.

 

[telsor]

Nothing. They pay for the production, and in return get a product with advertising $$$, more so than re-reuns of zumbo's just deserts.

They charge to show things like the WAFL. Why would they show this for free? Especially given the time (leadup to main night games would be ~5-7pm...decent ratings times).

If ch7 would get better ratings for zumbo's deserts, and it costs less to show that, then they'd need to be well compensated in order to get them to show the reserves.

 

[JohnZ]

They charge to show things like the WAFL. Why would they show this for free? Especially given the time (leadup to main night games would be ~5-7pm...decent ratings times).

If ch7 would get better ratings for zumbo's deserts, and it costs less to show that, then they'd need to be well compensated in order to get them to show the reserves.

No one wants to watch Zumbo's just desert re-runs, that's why networks can't sell ad space for any sort of premium during that time. It's just people at home, doing the cooking or cleaning with the TV on in the background. Put on the AFL reserves 4 to 6pm running into the news before a 7pm main game between Collingwood and Carlton, or a showdown or a western derby, and all of a sudden you have a whole household watching the TV from 4pm to 10pm. And, all of the equipment is paid for by the main game at 7pm, just need to pay the extra 3 hours of wages.

 

[telsor]

No one wants to watch Zumbo's just desert re-runs, that's why networks can't sell ad space for any sort of premium during that time. It's just people at home, doing the cooking or cleaning with the TV on in the background. Put on the AFL reserves 4 to 6pm running into the news before a 7pm main game between Collingwood and Carlton, or a showdown or a western derby, and all of a sudden you have a whole household watching the TV from 4pm to 10pm. And, all of the equipment is paid for by the main game at 7pm, just need to pay the extra 3 hours of wages.

Nobody wants to watch the reserves either....

Check the ratings for 2nd tier comps (the ones that already pay to get on TV), now remember that a major concern with AFL 2nds clubs there is that they treat such games as training runs ... A separate reserves 'competition' would remove any pretense of 'competition' from those games making them even less attractive to watch.

 

[Muggs]

No one wants to watch Zumbo's just desert re-runs, that's why networks can't sell ad space for any sort of premium during that time. It's just people at home, doing the cooking or cleaning with the TV on in the background. Put on the AFL reserves 4 to 6pm running into the news before a 7pm main game between Collingwood and Carlton, or a showdown or a western derby, and all of a sudden you have a whole household watching the TV from 4pm to 10pm. And, all of the equipment is paid for by the main game at 7pm, just need to pay the extra 3 hours of wages.

Would expect the demographics of people watching TV 4-6 on a Friday are the demographics that want to watch reruns of Zumba just deserts and not the demographics that would watch a reserves game.

 

[JohnZ]

Nobody wants to watch the reserves either....

Check the ratings for 2nd tier comps (the ones that already pay to get on TV), now remember that a major concern with AFL 2nds clubs there is that they treat such games as training runs ... A separate reserves 'competition' would remove any pretense of 'competition' from those games making them even less attractive to watch.

Yes, but that's because people who would previously have supported Frankston as their VFA team all of a sudden were faced with the proposition that players from their AFL team (say Collingwood for example) were versing each other. That makes no sense. But an expanded 60-70 player list, with a Main and reserve comp, where the reserve comp had to be 70% under 21yo would get more people watching.

 

[walhawk]

There is a lot of talk in South Australia currently about creating a National Reserves competition for AFL clubs due the Adelaide Crows dominating the SANFL finals at the moment (won first final by 72 and second by 54).

I'm not really fussed with the Crows dominating the SANFL. However I think a national reserves competition has a range of benefits.

1. Preserve integrity of lower levels.
   • Having a national reserves competition will allow the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and NEAFL to be a level playing field.
2. Ability to ease in new AFL teams.
   • Brining in a new club like Tasmania through the national reserve competition could prove a easier process than throwing a club straight into the AFL.
3. More consistent level of play for AFL reserve teams.
   • The weaker teams of state leagues often are at such a lower standard to AFL reserve teams that the exercise for the AFL reserve club is borderline a waste of time.
4. Remove top up players.
   • If a national competition were to eventuate clubs would not have to have a two class of players in the sides.
   • May result in larger AFL squads.

Problems with that
1. VFL and NEAFL dead if you remove AFL clubs. They are not like WA/SA clubs, most have no money or support.
2. A new club is decades away. Not a factor.
3. Not true in VFL, maybe other states. VFL has dumped the two weak clubs. If you look at state league ladder the AFL clubs have very mixed results.
4. Reserves side will still need the exact number of top ups as they do now.

I see no advantage in have a ressies comp.

Some disadvantages:-
1. Cost
2. Young WA/SA/QLD/NSW players wiupd need to travel every 2nd week. Top up woupd find that difficult if working
3. Death of state leagues
4. Splitting the second tier players in two could actually weaken the standard.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Yes, but that's because people who would previously have supported Frankston as their VFA team all of a sudden were faced with the proposition that players from their AFL team (say Collingwood for example) were versing each other. That makes no sense. But an expanded 60-70 player list, with a Main and reserve comp, where the reserve comp had to be 70% under 21yo would get more people watching.

Reserves sides 20 years ago were different to how they are now, they were the seconds side in your club but were hell bent on winning the Reserves premiership. They were a side in their own right and clubs embraced and enjoyed the success they had.
Fast forward to now they are purely a training and development ground, winning is of no interest one way or another. The reserves players are there as back ups only.
You are right that it may make your day more enjoyable at the footy because there is two games on but bottom line who cares about watching teams train. Broadcasters certainly won't. And who would want to be a top up player in a side like these? I will try my guts out and the AFL listed players don't care at all.

The past is the past and Reserves football is dead, thank your AFL coaches for that. It is not ideal for the state leagues but they just have to keep finding a way to make it work. Personally i don't see any need for AFL aligned clubs to be playing finals, they don't care about it so why bother. If they need a hit out they can call one of the other AFL clubs and organise something.

 

[Bokonon]

Problems with that
1. VFL and NEAFL dead if you remove AFL clubs. They are not like WA/SA clubs, most have no money or support.
2. A new club is decades away. Not a factor.
3. Not true in VFL, maybe other states. VFL has dumped the two weak clubs. If you look at state league ladder the AFL clubs have very mixed results.
4. Reserves side will still need the exact number of top ups as they do now.

I see no advantage in have a ressies comp.

Some disadvantages:-
1. Cost
2. Young WA/SA/QLD/NSW players wiupd need to travel every 2nd week. Top up woupd find that difficult if working
3. Death of state leagues
4. Splitting the second tier players in two could actually weaken the standard.

In too minds about the NEAFL. One one hand it's disrespectful to teams like NT Thunder and Aspley who try teally hard to win it for teams not really focussed to be ther. On the other hand it would fold without the AFL sides.
This year really an anomaly with AFL sides playing off in the GF. With our expanded list, when we have low nos of injuŕies couldn't really support an argument it was fair.

 

[Bokonon]

Personally i don't see any need for AFL aligned clubs to be playing finals, they don't care about it so why bother. If they need a hit out they can call one of the other AFL clubs and organise something.[/QUOTE]
Bit like tanking for picks I think, you can do it as long as it's not done openly and honestly.
Good reason a national reserves comp which would have more integrity. Would almost ceerainly have to kiss rhe NEAFL goodbyè. Maybe NT Thunder could join the WAFL? I've lived up there and they like to feel a part of things, and are pretty gòod màking sporting things like that work. Soccer into SE Asia, is the only failure I can think of.

 

[Jack Stevens]

ADELAIDE could look to have its Crows reserves join the VFL or NEAFL if the SANFL introduces a cap on the number of AFL-listed players who can be fielded in the State league.

The SANFL has begun its annual review of AFL clubs Adelaide and Port Adelaide fielding AFL reserves teams in the State league — as demanded by the licence agreement. But this year there is extra pressure from the eight traditional SANFL clubs to introduce a cap on AFL-listed players named for State league action.

The SANFL wrote to both the Crows and Power last week to declare the question of “competitive balance” in the State league was again on the SA Football Commission agenda. The commission last year rejected the push for a cap that would have limited the number of AFL-listed players to between 12-15 in each of the Crows and Power reserves teams.

But the pushback from the eight traditional SANFL clubs is harder this year, particularly after the debate on AFL reserves teams in the State league became hot with Adelaide’s emphatic wins in the SANFL elimination final against Central District and first semi-final against South Adelaide — the two SANFL clubs that in August 2013 voted against AFL reserves team in their competition.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...n/news-story/58d9f2cae8f1db310846799342b5332a

I think the benefits of a national reserves out weigh the negatives for the AFL clubs, particularly now that the AFL is flush with cash. If the NEAFL fell, would anyone really care? The VFL going would be more shocking, but I don't personally know anyone who cares about it beyond seeing AFL listed players, and those who are dedicated to it on BigFooty are few and far between. The old VFA clubs could join and strengthen an existing comp, and it'd probably be more graceful than teams like Box Hill, Preston and now seemingly Sandringham who have had their soul sucked out anyway.

My idea is to scrap the rookie list, and instead each club has a bigger supplementary list of reserves players. Any of those players can be upgraded under current rookie upgrading rules, although full promotion to the senior list via the draft would probably have some sort of bidding process like for father-sons and academy players. Clubs would still be able to sign international and non-traditional pathway players, like they currently can with the cat b rookie list.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

ADELAIDE could look to have its Crows reserves join the VFL or NEAFL if the SANFL introduces a cap on the number of AFL-listed players who can be fielded in the State league.

The SANFL has begun its annual review of AFL clubs Adelaide and Port Adelaide fielding AFL reserves teams in the State league — as demanded by the licence agreement. But this year there is extra pressure from the eight traditional SANFL clubs to introduce a cap on AFL-listed players named for State league action.

The SANFL wrote to both the Crows and Power last week to declare the question of “competitive balance” in the State league was again on the SA Football Commission agenda. The commission last year rejected the push for a cap that would have limited the number of AFL-listed players to between 12-15 in each of the Crows and Power reserves teams.

But the pushback from the eight traditional SANFL clubs is harder this year, particularly after the debate on AFL reserves teams in the State league became hot with Adelaide’s emphatic wins in the SANFL elimination final against Central District and first semi-final against South Adelaide — the two SANFL clubs that in August 2013 voted against AFL reserves team in their competition.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...n/news-story/58d9f2cae8f1db310846799342b5332a

I think the benefits of a national reserves out weigh the negatives for the AFL clubs, particularly now that the AFL is flush with cash. If the NEAFL fell, would anyone really care? The VFL going would be more shocking, but I don't personally know anyone who cares about it beyond seeing AFL listed players, and those who are dedicated to it on BigFooty are few and far between. The old VFA clubs could join and strengthen an existing comp, and it'd probably be more graceful than teams like Box Hill, Preston and now seemingly Sandringham who have had their soul sucked out anyway.

My idea is to scrap the rookie list, and instead each club has a bigger supplementary list of reserves players. Any of those players can be upgraded under current rookie upgrading rules, although full promotion to the senior list via the draft would probably have some sort of bidding process like for father-sons and academy players. Clubs would still be able to sign international and non-traditional pathway players, like they currently can with the cat b rookie list.

No one is going to watch though, the games will not be before the main game and that will not change, they will be at a different ground at a different time. As the clubs don't care about win or loss then Tv won't be interested either.

Now personally i think AFL clubs should have their own seconds side as its good for them to all play together but does it really make a difference? And because your club says it does then does that mean it really is true.
The Eagles won 3 flags without a seconds side, the players were split throughout the WAFL clubs, since they have been aligned the Eagles have not won a flag. That does not mean it isn't the right thing to do but I am asking the question is all the trouble this causes worth it in the long run.
AFL clubs are like sheep, if one club does something the rest follow it blindly.

I don't mind the Eagles and Dockers being in the WAFL, my problem is that everything is designed around them being in the WAFL when it should be them fitting into the WAFL structure under the WAFL terms.

AFL reserves would be a joke of a comp, they will not let AFL lists go to 60-70 players which is what is required. Which means you need top up players. Where do they come from and who will pay them? And how will they feel about playing their heart out each week while the AFL listed players are working on development and don't care if they win or lose.

I don't know the answer but it certainly is not an AFL reserves comp in my opinion. I don't see why the AFL clubs can't just have structured organised hitouts weekly with no ladders, no media, no finals. The clubs don't care so why would the patrons.

 

[telsor]

Personally i don't see any need for AFL aligned clubs to be playing finals, they don't care about it so why bother. If they need a hit out they can call one of the other AFL clubs and organise something.

I agree with the post, but on this....It's to maintain the pretense that they're out there doing something more than training. What sort of message would it send if the WAFL said they couldn't play finals because they weren't a 'real' team? While it'd be refreshingly honest, it'd crush the validity of the entire competition (not just those clubs) to admit that through the H&A 2 games a week have a team that is just there for a practice game.

I'm usually a fan of substance over PR, but in this case, the illusion needs to be maintained.