Europe 500 years of the Reformation

[The Speaker]

One of those most significant events of all of history (though it wasn't known to be so at the time) is having its 500th anniversary on this day. The publishing of Martin Luther's 95 Theses was a tremor that turned into a tsunami, crashing over the Roman Catholic Church and irrevocably dividing the European continent - and later the places colonised by the great powers - in a way unseen in the era of Christendom.

Some questions for you to ponder in light of this:

a) Was the Reformation avoidable?
b) How long did it last?
c) Why did it have such a big impact?
d) How different would history have been had it not happened, or had it happened in a different way? (Whether it be Luther accepting the teaching of the Church at Worms, or Henry VIII remaining under the Papacy, or Henry IV attempting to rule as a Huguenot, or the Council of Trent never happened).

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Follow the money

 

[The Speaker]

Follow the money

You're going to have to clarify that

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

You're going to have to clarify that

Who made money out of this change?

 

[The Speaker]

Who made money out of this change?

Who do you think made money out of it, and how did they influence it?

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Who do you think made money out of it, and how did they influence it?

Money has influenced everything the Europeans have ever done since that system was introduced.

Smedley Butler said war is a racket.

Your answers will be found when you look at it from this angle

 

[The Speaker]

Money has influenced everything the Europeans have ever done since that system was introduced.

Smedley Butler said war is a racket.

Your answers will be found when you look at it from this angle

I want you to give me the answers. Oblique questions are not a discussion.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

I want you to give me the answers. Oblique questions are not a discussion.

Do you remember the scene in empire strokes back when lluke is in training with Yoda? Luke gets inpatient like you are now when Yoda won't give him answers only show him where to look, as all great professors do

 

[The Speaker]

Do you remember the scene in empire strokes back when lluke is in training with Yoda? Luke gets inpatient like you are now when Yoda won't give him answers only show him where to look, as all great professors do

No, I'm asking it because this is a discussion forum, which means that someone poses the initial question (in this case, me), and then everyone else joins in with answers, from which further questions can be asked.

There is no discussion in a 'go away and look for yourself at this hidden conspiracy'.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

No, I'm asking it because this is a discussion forum, which means that someone poses the initial question (in this case, me), and then everyone else joins in with answers, from which further questions can be asked.

There is no discussion in a 'go away and look for yourself at this hidden conspiracy'.

You're funny.

 

[chelseacarlton]

[QUOTE="The Speaker, post: 53329933, member: 116771]"...this is a discussion forum........and then everyone else joins in...
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeh...and how has that worked out for ya’?
Lol
No one cares,because your religion is stupid and dying!
Hopefully my grandkids or great grandkids will witness the final nail in the coffin,or better still,be holding the hammer!
Sweeeeeet!

 

[King Brown]

a) Was the Reformation avoidable?

Probably not. The Catholic Church's grip on Western Europe depended on their near total control of information. The invention of the printing press broke that. Even then, the schism between east and west only 500 years earlier showed that you could break with Rome, as well as the Avignon papacy. What is more amazing is that the Catholic Church dominated for so long.

b) How long did it last?

Probably until the end of 30 years war, or even French Revolution. So ~250 years in total. I think ending the divine right of kings, the dechristianisation of France, and the Cult of Reason was the end run consequence of the Reformation.

c) Why did it have such a big impact?

Allowed religions in Western Europe to be determined along concepts of ethnicity, culture and nationhood. Many of the early Protestant churches were state based and gave sermons in the local language (e.g. Church of England, Church of Sweden, etc) and these were forerunners of the concept of the nation state. Reformation and counter Reformation lead to the Treaty of Westphalia which established the modern idea of international relations.

d) How different would history have been had it not happened

Very different. The break set ultimately set northern Europe on a different course to southern Europe. Power shifted towards the northern states, who gradually became the preeminent powers in Europe. The formerly powerful Catholic states like Spain, Austria and France probably would have remained powerful had it not happened.

Very likely that all of the Americas would be Spanish and French. Uncertain what the rest of the world would have looked like. The Enlightenment and associated scientific, agricultural and industrial revolutions may have taken longer to occur, or even never happened.

 

[GreyCrow]

Probably until the end of 30 years war, or even French Revolution. So ~250 years in total. I think ending the divine right of kings,

This for me is the big one. Once you remove the illusion of power then it becomes something wanting to be shared. Or grabbed. Once you make the rulers human then they have human foibles and traits and the emperors clothes don't seem so fancy

Added: The differences between Louis 14 and Louis 16 is a great example of that

 

[El Dubya]

a) Was the Reformation avoidable?
b) How long did it last?
c) Why did it have such a big impact?
d) How different would history have been had it not happened, or had it happened in a different way? (Whether it be Luther accepting the teaching of the Church at Worms, or Henry VIII remaining under the Papacy, or Henry IV attempting to rule as a Huguenot, or the Council of Trent never happened).

Really interesting questions you raise. I think the state of the Catholic Church at that time made the reformation unavoidable, so many factors led to the corrupt institution that Catholicism is/was.

One interesting outcome is the prevalence of atheism. Without Luther I don't think there would have been an accepted precedent of questioning the Church, which leads quickly to questioning faith in general.

 

[Power Raid]

Probably not. The Catholic Church's grip on Western Europe depended on their near total control of information. The invention of the printing press broke that. Even then, the schism between east and west only 500 years earlier showed that you could break with Rome, as well as the Avignon papacy. What is more amazing is that the Catholic Church dominated for so long.

Probably until the end of 30 years war, or even French Revolution. So ~250 years in total. I think ending the divine right of kings, the dechristianisation of France, and the Cult of Reason was the end run consequence of the Reformation.

Allowed religions in Western Europe to be determined along concepts of ethnicity, culture and nationhood. Many of the early Protestant churches were state based and gave sermons in the local language (e.g. Church of England, Church of Sweden, etc) and these were forerunners of the concept of the nation state. Reformation and counter Reformation lead to the Treaty of Westphalia which established the modern idea of international relations.


Very different. The break set ultimately set northern Europe on a different course to southern Europe. Power shifted towards the northern states, who gradually became the preeminent powers in Europe. The formerly powerful Catholic states like Spain, Austria and France probably would have remained powerful had it not happened.

Very likely that all of the Americas would be Spanish and French. Uncertain what the rest of the world would have looked like. The Enlightenment and associated scientific, agricultural and industrial revolutions may have taken longer to occur, or even never happened.

I never thought of the potential impact on colonialisation. It’s hard to fathom what the world would look like with a Spanish and French North America and Oz.

 

[sydney eagle]

Was the reformation avoidable ? I think that it could have been postponed at least IF the Pope had actually taken notice of (and acted upon) the points raised in Luther's 95 theses.

 

[Gavin Excell]

The german consequence is interesting.

 

[Pessimistic]

Pretty pointless because the Masses rejected bot versions as soon as they didn't need to

When you see all thos huge churches in europe. you get a false impression that religion must have been popular.

Interestingly this is not a true impression and many of these churches were built huge for effect, and they have rarely been filled on a regular basis, especially after religion became optional (ie they didn't kill you for refusing any more)

 

[The Speaker]

Probably not. The Catholic Church's grip on Western Europe depended on their near total control of information. The invention of the printing press broke that. Even then, the schism between east and west only 500 years earlier showed that you could break with Rome, as well as the Avignon papacy. What is more amazing is that the Catholic Church dominated for so long.

I agree, I can't think of a way for Rome to hold on to its position in the 16th century, even if it hadn't been so rife with corruption and worldliness that a Reformation was necessary.

Probably until the end of 30 years war, or even French Revolution. So ~250 years in total. I think ending the divine right of kings, the dechristianisation of France, and the Cult of Reason was the end run consequence of the Reformation.

This I am not so sure of. While it is true that all those things were a consequence of the Reformation, in so far as history flowed in that direction, I don't think the Reformation itself lasted that long. I would say that sometime around the Thirty Years' War is the most likely point - a lot of people claim that the end of it, with the Peace of Westphalia, would be the one, but I think the Reformation ceased to be the main cause of the war much earlier than that, if at all.

Allowed religions in Western Europe to be determined along concepts of ethnicity, culture and nationhood. Many of the early Protestant churches were state based and gave sermons in the local language (e.g. Church of England, Church of Sweden, etc) and these were forerunners of the concept of the nation state. Reformation and counter Reformation lead to the Treaty of Westphalia which established the modern idea of international relations.

Yes, and I think this is because Christianity was still seen as the most important part of the identity of the peoples of Europe. It had defined them for centuries.

Very different. The break set ultimately set northern Europe on a different course to southern Europe. Power shifted towards the northern states, who gradually became the preeminent powers in Europe. The formerly powerful Catholic states like Spain, Austria and France probably would have remained powerful had it not happened.

Very likely that all of the Americas would be Spanish and French. Uncertain what the rest of the world would have looked like. The Enlightenment and associated scientific, agricultural and industrial revolutions may have taken longer to occur, or even never happened.

Indeed, although I wonder whether these powers would have bothered colonising to such a large extent had they remained in power? Might they have been lured back into the Middle East instead? Portugal may have been the main beneficiary.

Pretty pointless because the Masses rejected bot versions as soon as they didn't need to

When you see all thos huge churches in europe. you get a false impression that religion must have been popular.

Interestingly this is not a true impression and many of these churches were built huge for effect, and they have rarely been filled on a regular basis, especially after religion became optional (ie they didn't kill you for refusing any more)

I think you may be imagining things.

 

[Pessimistic]

Well I wasn’t actually there granted

What I was meaning is growing up in England at a time when churchgoing decreased massively, you just look at all the churches and think well they must have been very religious once, all these huge churches everywhere. I was wrong
It appears there was massive building in the 1800s by Anglican Church in response to more popular religions such as Methodism who were expanding tiny churches regularly to meet the demand. Anglican often built a church near a Methodist and built it much bigger in order to impress the locals. Naturally many of them rarely filled
This is an english UK thing but anywhere where a massive church building happened in the 1800s would have been a folly because churchgoing was already on a long track to lower popularity
It was a massive waste of resources by the government


http://richardjohnbr.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/victorian-age-was-self-consciously.html

 

[The Speaker]

What I was meaning is growing up in England at a time when churchgoing decreased massively, you just look at all the churches and think well they must have been very religious once, all these huge churches everywhere. I was wrong
It appears there was massive building in the 1800s by Anglican Church in response to more popular religions such as Methodism who were expanding tiny churches regularly to meet the demand. Anglican often built a church near a Methodist and built it much bigger in order to impress the locals. Naturally many of them rarely filled
This is an english UK thing but anywhere where a massive church building happened in the 1800s would have been a folly because churchgoing was already on a long track to lower popularity
It was a massive waste of resources by the government


http://richardjohnbr.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/victorian-age-was-self-consciously.html

No, you weren't wrong.

Christianity went through ups and downs in England over the years. The 1700s were generally a down period, as the Church of England, in particular, struggled to deal firstly with the influence of the Enlightenment in the higher echelons of society, and then the appearance of nationalism during the Revolutionary Wars.

The 1800s went in the opposite direction. There was not merely a population boom, but also a concious, societal revival of Christian thinking and belief. The CoE, being a large, episcopal body, was unable to respond quickly to this, and as a result in the early part of the century many of the emerging 'working class' in the rapidly expanding big cities attached themselves to nonconformist churches or trade union bodies. It was only in the latter half of the century that the amount of CoE clergymen being trained and the number of churches being built was matching, and then exceeding, the rate of population growth.

The size of the churches was because all Englishmen were, by law, members of the Church of England, and the parish needed to have space for all the people in that parish. Naturally, in a new industrial parish there would need to be a large church to fit the population into, regardless of how many would actually join that church. The hypothesis that church attendance was declining before the First World War is a misnomer. It was the attachment of the CoE to the war that truly began the decline, even though official numbers actually rose for about a decade after the Second World War.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

When they over run the civilisations in Victoria in the 1800s they turned to Lutherans 'from Prussia to oversee the genocide.

The whole point was to steal recources

 

[skilts]

It must be 50 years since I studied this subject, at secondary college. This thread has provided a lot of what I've forgotten. Be warned, I'll be visiting again.

 

[its free real estate]

It must be 50 years since I studied this subject, at secondary college. This thread has provided a lot of what I've forgotten. Be warned, I'll be visiting again.

Are you coming back?

 

[its free real estate]

No, you weren't wrong.

Christianity went through ups and downs in England over the years. The 1700s were generally a down period, as the Church of England, in particular, struggled to deal firstly with the influence of the Enlightenment in the higher echelons of society, and then the appearance of nationalism during the Revolutionary Wars.

The 1800s went in the opposite direction. There was not merely a population boom, but also a concious, societal revival of Christian thinking and belief. The CoE, being a large, episcopal body, was unable to respond quickly to this, and as a result in the early part of the century many of the emerging 'working class' in the rapidly expanding big cities attached themselves to nonconformist churches or trade union bodies. It was only in the latter half of the century that the amount of CoE clergymen being trained and the number of churches being built was matching, and then exceeding, the rate of population growth.

The size of the churches was because all Englishmen were, by law, members of the Church of England, and the parish needed to have space for all the people in that parish. Naturally, in a new industrial parish there would need to be a large church to fit the population into, regardless of how many would actually join that church. The hypothesis that church attendance was declining before the First World War is a misnomer. It was the attachment of the CoE to the war that truly began the decline, even though official numbers actually rose for about a decade after the Second World War.

This post reminds that I know a lot of European history between 1000 and 1600 but comparatively nothing between 1600-1900, aside from a few major events.