Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

[Arwib]

The whole crowd narrative definitely needs some nuance. It's not the case in every city, and for every team within cities - Sydney and Brisbane are obviously doing well, Whitten Oval crowds look like they're on the uptick, Essendon at Windy Hell has been high, though lower this year. Geelong is pretty steady. Some of the secondary cities like GWS at Manuka, the Darwin game have also done well.

On the other hand, some of the other Melbourne venues and relatively homeless or peripherally located teams there aren't as high as you'd probably want. Then there's the WA and SA crowds, which while solid and fairly steady, are probably a bit lower than we'd probably expect there given the size of the cities and fanbases. Especially for the Crows and the Eagles? Is the Eagles venue badly located?

But even then that's all nuance within the picture of the second largest league in the country for womens attendances, after the much more well established netball.

 

[Cuzz09]

When was the last time any West Coast side was in the 8 with 3 rounds remaining?

Be nice to snag a spot but be tough, prob need to win 2 of 3

 

[Arwib]

I think there's like 4 teams all in that same position, probably. Everyone from Carlton down to Sydney probably need to win 2 of 3, especially with the Swans and Eagles a game behind Carlton and St Kilda but with better percentages. Carlton or the Saints might survive with 1 win but would be a little precarious.

Crows probably safe unless the Kangaroos really batter their percentage, and Geelong probably needs 3 from 3 including beating the Dees, and some other luck.

 

[Sphynx]

Well, get ready to be a sad panda because equalisation is coming whether you like it or not.

Gun players from my team and your team will be thrilled to go to cellar-dweller clubs who will have massive salary cap space and can pay them way more money.

Once the league has grown past the embryonic and struggling phase things will be different, but right now the long-term viability of the entire comp is more important than your or my club’s narrow self-interests.

Most of the girls go/went to North, because North were virtually the first AFL club heavily involved in womens footy and have been for around 2 decades. They have that reputation within the Melbourne womens suburban leagues.

North had a formal partnership with the Melbourne Uni girls team dating back to even the early 00's. They helped train coaches, had the girls over regularly for skills sessions, gave access to medical resources etc. Supported the local competition and particularly MUW. A genuine big brother/little sister partnership, not virtue signalling and well before it was commercially "cool" to be involved in womens footy, with no prospect of a pay off.

It's unheard of for AFL clubs to have a relationship with a suburban, non-state league football club...a women's club to boot....

A couple of exhibition games by Melbourne and the Dogs meant jack shit, as has been proven long term.

It's why plenty of Melbourne based female players took North's exclusion from the initial rounds of licenses so personally.

It's why all the EX MUW girls (like Kearney) jumped over as soon as North entered the league. They explained it as "coming home", not joining an expansion side.


That appreciation within the womens footy movement might die off eventually with the natural flow of the new junior pathways, but for the moment, no there will be that draw for the short term at least. Becoming a powerhouse within the comp, only helps that demand, obviously.


The real shit will hit the fan if someone like Conti eventually moves to North, who is a life long North fan and eventually wants to play at Arden St.

 

[Sphynx]

The correct figures for attendance indicate steady growth, and dwarf every other Aus women's league for traditionally male-dominated sport.

No deflection, just context. And no speech required, because we all know it's true.

Btw "crowds are shit and growth is shit" and "gifted 50 million a year" are clear indicators of somebody not interested in having a fair-minded discussion about the return on AFL investment.

There's something to be said for the sweet spot being smaller crowds and an ode to the traditional VFL/SANFL/WAFL i.e suburban footy.

We don't need everything to be in 40k all seaters.

I took my daughters to Moorabbin on Sunday, they had their faces painted, rode some rides, did some arts and crafts, met half of the Collingwood/Saints players after the game, were able to run around the hill and kick the footy constantly.

They loved it, way more than even a normal mens game in a packed stadium.

You don't get that with an average crowd of 30k.

That is the brand they need to build on, tbh there's room to double or triple to attendances and still maintain that vibe/feel. But they shouldn't aim to be the AFL 2.0 imo.

IT's not the same product and never will be. That is the trap the WNBA falls into.

Likewise, the AFL can never bring back the nostalgia of suburban footy, being able to drive to a local ground and watch a elite league in your local area, have a beer on a hill, get up close to the players, is what the AFLW needs to leverage off etc etc.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Most of the girls go/went to North, because North were virtually the first AFL club heavily involved in womens footy and have been for around 2 decades. They have that reputation within the Melbourne womens suburban leagues.

North had a formal partnership with the Melbourne Uni girls team dating back to even the early 00's. They helped train coaches, had the girls over regularly for skills sessions, gave access to medical resources etc. Supported the local competition and particularly MUW. A genuine big brother/little sister partnership, not virtue signalling and well before it was commercially "cool" to be involved in womens footy, with no prospect of a pay off.

It's unheard of for AFL clubs to have a relationship with a suburban, non-state league football club...a women's club to boot....

A couple of exhibition games by Melbourne and the Dogs meant jack shit, as has been proven long term.

It's why plenty of Melbourne based female players took North's exclusion from the initial rounds of licenses so personally.

It's why all the EX MUW girls (like Kearney) jumped over as soon as North entered the league. They explained it as "coming home", not joining an expansion side.


That appreciation within the womens footy movement might die off eventually with the natural flow of the new junior pathways, but for the moment, no there will be that draw for the short term at least. Becoming a powerhouse within the comp, only helps that demand, obviously.


The real shit will hit the fan if someone like Conti eventually moves to North, who is a life long North fan and eventually wants to play at Arden St.

I think this is being a bit dismissive of the fact that Melbourne and Western Bulldogs did actually put in a lot of legwork to make the games happen, and obviously while it's not North, it's also more than 15 other clubs.

The issue stemmed from the fact that North were not given the license instead of Collingwood (who didn't even have a ground to play on), where if once North were forced into an even draft with the rest of the league upon the league starting, it would have been harder for them to recruit players en masse from other clubs because they weren't entering with a relative blank slate.

 

[Arwib]

It's also a bit of a Victoria-centric perspective, we had almost a decade of state based recruiting that simply wasn't a level playing field over the formative years.

GWS most notably have self-inflicted plenty of their own problems over the journey, but it's not as though they had a VFLW to tap into or use for development, or the ability to recruit freely from stronger states either by draft or by players being able to afford financially to move.

Basically if you wanna talk about the advantages a club gained by pre AFLW engagement with the women's league in Melbourne, that's 9 clubs only who could've done that. Maybe 10.

 

[weevil]

The correct figures for attendance indicate steady growth, and dwarf every other Aus women's league for traditionally male-dominated sport.

No deflection, just context. And no speech required, because we all know it's true.

Btw "crowds are shit and growth is shit" and "gifted 50 million a year" are clear indicators of somebody not interested in having a fair-minded discussion about the return on AFL investment.

Sigh, no, they are clear indicators of someone who is finding it increasingly tiresome trying to discuss very complex topics with someone whose only tactic is to childishly argue the complete opposite to every single point, to the death, no matter what.

"because we all know it's true" is not a credible argument; you either have actual numbers to back up your claims or you are just projecting your feelings.

As it is, if I said the sky was blue, you would insist it was bright purple.

I've said previously, I'm more than happy to change my opinion based on real evidence. I’m trying to have an actual dialogue like grown-ups. That's not possible if you can't come to the table.

 

[weevil]

The whole crowd narrative definitely needs some nuance. It's not the case in every city, and for every team within cities - Sydney and Brisbane are obviously doing well, Whitten Oval crowds look like they're on the uptick, Essendon at Windy Hell has been high, though lower this year. Geelong is pretty steady. Some of the secondary cities like GWS at Manuka, the Darwin game have also done well.

On the other hand, some of the other Melbourne venues and relatively homeless or peripherally located teams there aren't as high as you'd probably want. Then there's the WA and SA crowds, which while solid and fairly steady, are probably a bit lower than we'd probably expect there given the size of the cities and fanbases. Especially for the Crows and the Eagles? Is the Eagles venue badly located?

But even then that's all nuance within the picture of the second largest league in the country for womens attendances, after the much more well established netball.

Of course, there is a huge amount of nuance. It just takes people who are willing to discuss rather than simply lecture.

Can you pinpoint why it is working so well in Sydney? Beyond “marketing”, I’m not really sure.

I think it’s going okay in Brisbane, but I think a lot of that is based on how successful the team has been for so long. I worry that if performances drop off, it will start to look different. Springfield is significantly better than what we had, but it has some real limitations.

Netball is a bit like soccer, big participation but no focus at the top end. I’ve actually played a little bit of netball, and I think it’s one of those sports that is waaaaay better to play than it is to watch on TV. It's a lot like one big constant midfield battle in footy. Lots of super quick ball movement and changes in direction. But it doesn’t have the big spectacular marking of footy or scoring like in basketball.

I don’t think there is any way of getting around the issue that AFLW has huge built-in financial and media access advantages over Netball. You can bet your life netball would give anything to have the stepladder into the market AFLW has.

 

[Arwib]

I mean, netball crowds are massive. I think the only bigger leagues in the world for that are the WNBA, NWSL and English soccer and the latter is strongly boosted by just a couple of huge clubs with a lower median.

Of course AFLW attendances do also stack up fairly well domestically and globally as well, despite the room for improvement. In every city with both they're the second biggest attendance events after the super netball. Elsewhere, in Canberra they're roughly on par with the Capitals, in regional Victoria they're the biggest. Only really in regional Queensland are the Suns well down the rankings.

This was made using 2024 numbers but not much will have changed. As a league the W is right around the expected zone. Low to mid single digit thousands is generally the global norm, only the major North American leagues with their huge cities and single teams have started to push past it yet.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Yeah, hasn't got a clue.

Posts on an AFLW board and says "crowds are shit".

Doesn't back it up with comparisons to Aus women's domestic leagues for soccer, cricket, basketball, rugby league, etc.

Starts throwing around "childish" accusations after making a context-free claim and demanding others disprove it.

 

[weevil]

Yeah, hasn't got a clue.

Posts on an AFLW board and says "crowds are shit".

Doesn't back it up with comparisons to Aus women's domestic leagues for soccer, cricket, basketball, rugby league, etc.

Starts throwing around "childish" accusations after making a context-free claim and demanding others disprove it.

I previously provided heaps of context; you ignored all of it. I quoted numbers from the AFL Annual Report. Your response was "Don't worry about it".

The onus is on you to put up or shut up. You love to talk a huge game, but you have consistently failed to produce any numbers to back your argument.

Deflect, deflect, deflect, run run, run, hide, hide, hide.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Also notice how "crowds are shit" is an actual quote.

The likely reality that we're headed for a 3rd consecutive Melbourne grand final in a 12k venue (locking out at least tens of thousands of fans), despite hundreds of millions of dollars in government funding supposedly spent on Victorian AFLW venues recently, is something that certainly impacts AFLW crowds and is a reasonable cause of concern.

 

[Arwib]

Also notice how "crowds are shit" is an actual quote.

The likely reality that we're headed for a 3rd consecutive Melbourne grand final in a 12k venue (locking out at least tens of thousands of fans), despite hundreds of millions of dollars in government funding supposedly spent on Victorian AFLW venues recently, is something that certainly impacts AFLW crowds and is a reasonable cause of concern.

Sydney owe it to the league to earn a Henson Park grand final one day, just to see exactly how many people the modern fire and OHS standards will allow to get crammed into a venue that once had 30k plus people lol.

 

[timokane]

What do we think of the Carlton girls.
i really like them.
Nice team nice to watch.
handy talent under rated as well.

 

[jatz14]

Of course, there is a huge amount of nuance. It just takes people who are willing to discuss rather than simply lecture.

Can you pinpoint why it is working so well in Sydney? Beyond “marketing”, I’m not really sure.

I think it’s going okay in Brisbane, but I think a lot of that is based on how successful the team has been for so long. I worry that if performances drop off, it will start to look different. Springfield is significantly better than what we had, but it has some real limitations.

Netball is a bit like soccer, big participation but no focus at the top end. I’ve actually played a little bit of netball, and I think it’s one of those sports that is waaaaay better to play than it is to watch on TV. It's a lot like one big constant midfield battle in footy. Lots of super quick ball movement and changes in direction. But it doesn’t have the big spectacular marking of footy or scoring like in basketball.

I don’t think there is any way of getting around the issue that AFLW has huge built-in financial and media access advantages over Netball. You can bet your life netball would give anything to have the stepladder into the market AFLW has.

Queensland got into womens footy earlier and harder than pretty much every other state. Starcevich had a role in that, and helped set up and coach the girls development pathway years before the AFLW was a thing. The feeling prior to the AFLW was that Queensland had probably become the second strongest state in terms of female football, surpassing both WA and SA who both lagged significantly. Queensland had more clubs, and more comps for womens football than both WA and SA.

This I would assume (not from Qld), built a ready made supporter base for a womens team. The community clubs, girls teams, family and friends thereof, become your AFLW club supporter base.

 

[liz]

Sydney owe it to the league to earn a Henson Park grand final one day, just to see exactly how many people the modern fire and OHS standards will allow to get crammed into a venue that once had 30k plus people lol.

I think the official capacity of Henson is around 20k (per AusStadiums). It’s probably a little lower this season with the development on the broadcast side of the ground.

Getting people in and out for a finals sized crowd might be a challenge. For the derby a few weeks ago I missed the first ten mins of the game because there was a very long queue at the Woodland St entrance. At the weekend I entered via the Sydenham Rd entrance, which was a lot smoother. The gate people seemed to know how to use their hand-held scanners.

 

[weevil]

Also notice how "crowds are shit" is an actual quote.

The likely reality that we're headed for a 3rd consecutive Melbourne grand final in a 12k venue (locking out at least tens of thousands of fans), despite hundreds of millions of dollars in government funding supposedly spent on Victorian AFLW venues recently, is something that certainly impacts AFLW crowds and is a reasonable cause of concern.

Wow, this coming from the guy who thinks it’s perfectly okay for him to regularly write condescending, contemptuous, “reviews” of women's footy players you believe deserve public shaming. I’m sure Lauren Bella’s family and friends are looking forward to your next put-down. All from safely behind your keyboard, what a hero.

You’ve got zero credibility. You will just say anything to try to deflect from the fact that you were caught lying.

Put up or shut up, show your evidence or admit you lied about having any.

It’s beyond tedious, the issue is that you just can’t tolerate being wrong, and you will say or do anything to avoid dealing with it.

 

[Arwib]

I think the official capacity of Henson is around 20k (per AusStadiums). It’s probably a little lower this season with the development on the broadcast side of the ground.

Getting people in and out for a finals sized crowd might be a challenge. For the derby a few weeks ago I missed the first ten mins of the game because there was a very long queue at the Woodland St entrance. At the weekend I entered via the Sydenham Rd entrance, which was a lot smoother. The gate people seemed to know how to use their hand-held scanners.

That sounds closer to the mark. They once had 40k for cycling in the 30s but I think there must have been people crammed into the inside of the track (ie on the field) too

 

[Teen Wolf]

When somebody comes on here and declares "crowds are shit and growth is shit"...

It's a safe bet that person won't acknowledge easy-to-find contrary info, such as post #4835 earlier on the page by Arwib, or the latest post in the 2025 Attendances thread.

More likely that person will instead resort to throwing a tantrum about something irrelevant.

 

[Biggie]

Arguments been going on for a few days now. Let’s leave it there.

 

[weevil]

I mean, netball crowds are massive. I think the only bigger leagues in the world for that are the WNBA, NWSL and English soccer and the latter is strongly boosted by just a couple of huge clubs with a lower median.

Of course AFLW attendances do also stack up fairly well domestically and globally as well, despite the room for improvement. In every city with both they're the second biggest attendance events after the super netball. Elsewhere, in Canberra they're roughly on par with the Capitals, in regional Victoria they're the biggest. Only really in regional Queensland are the Suns well down the rankings.

This was made using 2024 numbers but not much will have changed. As a league the W is right around the expected zone. Low to mid single digit thousands is generally the global norm, only the major North American leagues with their huge cities and single teams have started to push past it yet.

View attachment 2455506

WNBA: crowds up 48% year on year, TV up 170%.

WNBA Delivers Record-Setting 2024 Season

The WNBA delivered its most-watched regular season in 24 years and set records for digital consumption and merchandise sales in 2024.

www.wnba.com

NRLW: crowds up 115% year on year, TV up 45%.

‘Depth not width’: After NRLW’s greatest season yet, these crucial calls will decide its future

‘Depth not width’: After NRLW’s greatest season yet, these crucial calls will decide its future

www.foxsports.com.au

WBBL crowds up 23% year on year, TV up 46%

WBBL viewership up 46% across TV and streaming - SportsPro

Tenth edition of Australian women's T20 competition also sees average attendance grow 23 per cent this season.

www.sportspro.com

Australian Netball crowds up 25% year on year, TV “third consecutive year of record-breaking growth”

Record crowds power financial results

Netball Australia’s full year financial results published in its Annual Report today show an operating surplus of $650,883 for the year ended 31 December 2024 – up from 2023’s surplus of $235,657. Netball Australia also continued to reduce its debt over the 12 months by $1.2 million and is on...

netball.com.au

Australian population: up 1.6% year on year.

National, state and territory population, March 2025

Statistics about the population and components of change (births, deaths, migration) for Australia and its states and territories

www.abs.gov.au

AFLW crowds down 0.97% year on year. AFL and broadcasters declined to make TV numbers public

AFL Annual Reports - AFL.com.au

View the Australian Football League annual reports

www.afl.com.au

The NRL states that their regular season games average 143,000 viewers while AFLW games average 55,000

Record-breaking season set to fuel further NRLW growth

Australian Rugby League Commission chairman Peter V'landys has outlined the organisation's plan to expand the NRLW competition on the back of record participation and viewership numbers in 2024.

www.nrl.com

 

[The_Wookie]

WNBA: crowds up 48% year on year, TV up 170%.

WNBA Delivers Record-Setting 2024 Season

The WNBA delivered its most-watched regular season in 24 years and set records for digital consumption and merchandise sales in 2024.

www.wnba.com

NRLW: crowds up 115% year on year, TV up 45%.

‘Depth not width’: After NRLW’s greatest season yet, these crucial calls will decide its future

‘Depth not width’: After NRLW’s greatest season yet, these crucial calls will decide its future

www.foxsports.com.au

WBBL crowds up 23% year on year, TV up 46%

WBBL viewership up 46% across TV and streaming - SportsPro

Tenth edition of Australian women's T20 competition also sees average attendance grow 23 per cent this season.

www.sportspro.com

Australian Netball crowds up 25% year on year, TV “third consecutive year of record-breaking growth”

Record crowds power financial results

Netball Australia’s full year financial results published in its Annual Report today show an operating surplus of $650,883 for the year ended 31 December 2024 – up from 2023’s surplus of $235,657. Netball Australia also continued to reduce its debt over the 12 months by $1.2 million and is on...

netball.com.au

Australian population: up 1.6% year on year.

National, state and territory population, March 2025

Statistics about the population and components of change (births, deaths, migration) for Australia and its states and territories

www.abs.gov.au

AFLW crowds down 0.97% year on year. AFL and broadcasters declined to make TV numbers public

AFL Annual Reports - AFL.com.au

View the Australian Football League annual reports

www.afl.com.au

The NRL states that their regular season games average 143,000 viewers while AFLW games average 55,000

Record-breaking season set to fuel further NRLW growth

Australian Rugby League Commission chairman Peter V'landys has outlined the organisation's plan to expand the NRLW competition on the back of record participation and viewership numbers in 2024.

www.nrl.com

AFLW Crowds are actually up 3% this season, and on actual numbers, not percentages are only behind netball in Australia. More than half the NRLW matches were curtain raisers to a mens match - and most games are played Saturday and Sunday, which gives a huge advantage to NRLW coverage.

 

[weevil]

AFLW Crowds are actually up 3% this season, and on actual numbers, not percentages are only behind netball in Australia. More than half the NRLW matches were curtain raisers to a mens match - and most games are played Saturday and Sunday, which gives a huge advantage to NRLW coverage.

Yep, would not be surprised there is better AFLW growth this year, getting rid of the compressed fixture alone will help. But it’s still miles behind.

I think by this stage it’s fair to say the NRL have got their strategy right and they are leveraging some natural advantages they have.

I think doubleheaders are much easier for them because the games are so much shorter. And maybe what you initially lose by scheduling the seasons at the same time, you may eventually gain back because it helps forge that one club feeling amongst supporters. It feels like they are winning over club supporters really well to their women’s teams.

Just being able to tell a story of how your code is growing strongly and moving forward is really powerful. The NRLW GF having a million viewers is killer.

 

[pattymalone00]

AFLW Crowds are actually up 3% this season, and on actual numbers, not percentages are only behind netball in Australia. More than half the NRLW matches were curtain raisers to a mens match - and most games are played Saturday and Sunday, which gives a huge advantage to NRLW coverage.

Hot take: I always wonder if the AFLW crowds narrative is a victim on the success the men have pulling crowds because it feels like AFLW still pulls bigger crowds then NRLw and ALw for stand alone games… (not sure about wbbl)