Opinion Is playing for a powerhouse club no longer as appealing / advantageous as it used to be?

[GC2015]

I'll preface this by suggesting that the definition of 'powerhouse club' is likely to vary depending on who you're conversing with so I'll try to be as objective as possible here. The record books tell us that Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon are the most successful teams in VFL/AFL history with 16 premierships apiece and these three clubs also happen to top the table when it comes to runners-up Grand Final appearances as well. Unsurprisingly, these three clubs have assembled massive fanbases as a result of their historic success and are usually top 3 when it comes to H&A crowds each year. So I think it's fair to say that these three clubs are objectively powerhouse clubs in the AFL. Now I'm sure we'll see comments in this thread that advocate for 'powerhouse' status for clubs like Richmond, Hawthorn and West Coast, but I'll just stick to the big 3 for now because that should be universally accepted.

We're 25 years into this century (2000-25) and interestingly the big 3 clubs of Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon have only won a combined total of 3 flags. Compare that to the 25 years prior (1975-1999) and you'll see the big 3 clubs won triple the amount of premierships with 9 for the quarter century. For comparison, the big 3 powerhouse clubs won 8 premierships between 1950-1974 so you can see they were winning at a similar rate in the previous quarter century. So you can see the success has dramatically dropped off. We've also seen recent examples of high profile players like Joe Daniher and Charlie Curnow

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Charlie Curnow

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wanting to leave the powerhouse clubs in favour of smaller clubs and even Nick Daicos has publicly flirted with the idea of playing for a smaller club. Obviously the advent of social media/the internet in general plays its role these days with the pressure/stress that comes from being under the microscrope with one of the powerhouse clubs and that wasn't the case in previous decades.

So, in your opinion, is it no longer as appealing / advantageous to play for powerhouse clubs these days?

 

[LeBronco]

How come you didn't mention Geelong as a powerhouse club? They've won the most games and have the most All Australian selections no one else comes close.

 

[Robroy22]

Two paragraphs of absolute bait chuckin....and the baits off already.

You gotta get some fresh stuff mate, the fishy's just don't dig off bait.

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Ive read better from AI slop...

 

[SC_Power]

Ive read better from AI slop...

AI gives far better, almost read worthy answers to this question

 

[MisterMarcus]

OP is a truly odd mix of genuinely interesting talking points, and very very silly attempted bait.

 

[JackFlash]

Most players will prefer to play in a team that draws big crowds. Collingwood has many blockbusters and Anzac Day is the biggest no matter how badly Essendon are going. Geelong and Hawthorn will attract close to 90,000 to their game on Easter Monday while Carlton and Richmond have a strong following at any time. For all other Melbourne teams it's all money based for the player and where the draft landed them, if success comes their way it's a bonus. However, there must be a lot of envious players watching Anzac Day and Easter Monday wishing they were a part of it! So far Good Friday has not gained the same status because there is no powerhouse game scheduled. It probably should be Carlton v Richmond every year? It certainly must be played at the MCG. Powerhouse teams are still the preferred option and sometimes it can work out, but players will get itchy feet for a taste of the limelight at some point!

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

it's pointless to call essendon or carlton powerhouse clubs

 

[GC2015]

Most players will prefer to play in a team that draws big crowds.

Do they, though? Your club is probably a great example of how a smaller club can be more appealing to play for than a bigger one for several reasons like lifestyle factors. Look at Bailey Smith as a recent example - Melbourne boy who got drafted to one of the smaller Melbourne clubs and was chased by the bigger Melbourne clubs like Collingwood, but chose to join Geelong. He could've chosen Collingwood and played in front of big crowds at the MCG in 14 of 23 games last season, but he elected to join Geelong instead. Upon returning to Victoria, Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron could've joined big Melbourne clubs as well... but they didn't. Those are three examples of high profile players from all different parts of Victoria choosing Geelong over the big Melbourne clubs and it would appear most of them took less money to do so.

it's pointless to call essendon or carlton powerhouse clubs

I knew there would be some who would argue what a 'powerhouse club' looks like, but I think it would be hard to objectively argue that Carlton and Essendon aren't powerhouse clubs. The only argument you could really put forward is a lack of on field success in the last 20ish years, but there's obviously more to it than just on field success.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Yes. No one plays footy to win. They want to lose.


Close thread.

 

[Shane Heard]

It’s about the huge crowds at the G.

Only pies, dons, tigs, cartoon, Geelong and only when they are winning..HFC..bring the big 80k plus crowds in.

 

[Sttew]

How come you didn't mention Geelong as a powerhouse club? They've won the most games and have the most All Australian selections no one else comes close.

We're not a powerhouse club, but a destination club

 

[Robroy22]

Do they, though? Your club is probably a great example of how a smaller club can be more appealing to play for than a bigger one for several reasons like lifestyle factors. Look at Bailey Smith as a recent example - Melbourne boy who got drafted to one of the smaller Melbourne clubs and was chased by the bigger Melbourne clubs like Collingwood, but chose to join Geelong. He could've chosen Collingwood and played in front of big crowds at the MCG in 14 of 23 games last season, but he elected to join Geelong instead. Upon returning to Victoria, Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron could've joined big Melbourne clubs as well... but they didn't. Those are three examples of high profile players from all different parts of Victoria choosing Geelong over the big Melbourne clubs and it would appear most of them took less money to do so.


I knew there would be some who would argue what a 'powerhouse club' looks like, but I think it would be hard to objectively argue that Carlton and Essendon aren't powerhouse clubs. The only argument you could really put forward is a lack of on field success in the last 20ish years, but there's obviously more to it than just on field success.

Have you actually done the research on those claims you make or are they just "more bait"?

• Collingwood went after Bailey Smith did they? Please provide your source for this allegation. (and various media claims that "The Pies are into Bailey Smith" are not evidence of anything other than his manager wanting to up his trade price. (Pies get linked to everybody that's on the market....they did not go after Smith)
• "Upon returning to Victoria, Patrick Dangerfield...could have joined big Melbourne Clubs as well but didn't" ....OK this one you have completely arse around. Patrick had told the Crows midseason where he was going (and it was never Melbourne). His family all knew the arrangements, he even had started building his house at Moggs in preparation. Patrick handled all the "negotiations" with both Adelaide and Geelong and ensured that Adelaide were well looked after in the trade. He was never EVER going anywhere but Geelong and there were no external negotiations between Patrick and any Melbourne based clubs. So he was never lost to a big club....he was always going home. So please in future, don't try to cast aspersions against any "powerhouse" club with regards to this trade.
• Jezza was another seeking the quieter life outside the AFL bubble and as a child of the Western District, Geelong too was his chosen destination.

One wonders why Patty or Jezza didn't head North to sunny Gold Coast.....cos that's where all this bait is headed.

 

[GC2015]

Have you actually done the research on those claims you make or are they just "more bait"?

• Collingwood went after Bailey Smith did they? Please provide your source for this allegation. (and various media claims that "The Pies are into Bailey Smith" are not evidence of anything other than his manager wanting to up his trade price. (Pies get linked to everybody that's on the market....they did not go after Smith)

Didn't they? I thought this was public knowledge. Here's a link from April 2024 when it was reported that Collingwood were the frontrunners to land him.

‘Clear frontrunner’ for Dogs star Bailey Smith revealed as Magpies place ‘photo ban’ on trade target

‘Clear frontrunner’ for Dogs star revealed as Magpies place ‘photo ban’ on trade target

www.foxsports.com.au

• "Upon returning to Victoria, Patrick Dangerfield...could have joined big Melbourne Clubs as well but didn't" ....OK this one you have completely arse around. Patrick had told the Crows midseason where he was going (and it was never Melbourne). His family all knew the arrangements, he even had started building his house at Moggs in preparation. Patrick handled all the "negotiations" with both Adelaide and Geelong and ensured that Adelaide were well looked after in the trade. He was never EVER going anywhere but Geelong and there were no external negotiations between Patrick and any Melbourne based clubs. So he was never lost to a big club....he was always going home. So please in future, don't try to cast aspersions against any "powerhouse" club with regards to this trade.

I wasn't suggesting Danger had met with Melbourne clubs. Just that he could have gone to a big Melbourne club if he wanted to play in front of big crowds most weeks, but he chose against that. Obviously growing up in the Geelong area was a big factor for him and that's why I included other examples like Melbourne's Bailey Smith and Jeremy Cameron because they didn't have that natural connection to the area, but the point remains that Danger could've had his pick of the bunch when it came to clubs in Melbourne if he preferred playing in front of big crowds, but he chose Geelong instead. It's probably also important to point out that Geelong missed the finals in 2015 when Danger chose to join the Cats so they were going through a rebuilding/retooling phase when he made the decision and that rams home the idea of the lifestyle factor trumping success even more IMO.

• Jezza was another seeking the quieter life outside the AFL bubble and as a child of the Western District, Geelong too was his chosen destination.

Doesn't that prove my point? After playing in front of small crowds in western Sydney for 9 years, he didn't crave playing in front of big crowds for a club like Collingwood. He preferenced lifestyle over playing in front of big crowds on a regular basis. That's essentially the whole point of this thread. For context, Collingwood were in need of a tall forward and tried to lure Cameron as evidenced in the article below, but he chose the Cats in the end.

Cats coach confirms recent chat with Jeremy Cameron as Giant trade bombshell revealed

Cats coach confirms recent chat with Cameron as Giant trade bombshell revealed

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

There's a reason why Cameron, Smith and Co have chosen Geelong instead of West Coast.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

The advayntages are quite large. Even if the big club is basket-case on field.
The big clubs generally have far more access to more money outside football. Priority access to investment deals, all clubs can off that but the big clubs can mostly offer more. The same football salary can be supplemented by a fair bit for a big club first-teamer (whether that big club is Collingwood or Adelaide); in addition to more media opportunities, prime time plugs amidst commentary, and so forth for those who want to build themselves into a brand.

There are exceptions; where a mid or smaller club is particularly well connected, or particularly well performing.

 

[JackFlash]

Do they, though? Your club is probably a great example of how a smaller club can be more appealing to play for than a bigger one for several reasons like lifestyle factors. Look at Bailey Smith as a recent example - Melbourne boy who got drafted to one of the smaller Melbourne clubs and was chased by the bigger Melbourne clubs like Collingwood, but chose to join Geelong. He could've chosen Collingwood and played in front of big crowds at the MCG in 14 of 23 games last season, but he elected to join Geelong instead. Upon returning to Victoria, Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron could've joined big Melbourne clubs as well... but they didn't. Those are three examples of high profile players from all different parts of Victoria choosing Geelong over the big Melbourne clubs and it would appear most of them took less money to do so.
Geelong can give you the best of both worlds, lifestyle, anonymity to a certain degree and still play in MCG blockbusters, players no longer come to play with Melbourne clubs for the nightlife life anymore. Gone are the days when players would go out every night to the Tunnel, King Street clubs or Saloon Bar and stagger out of there at all hours and no one would know. They are attracted to powerhouse clubs in 2025 and can live well away from the limelight, go to training and just disappear into the suburbs. Players want lifestyle and to be left alone as much as possible these days and that means living some distance from their place of work. I wonder how many hearts sink deep down when they are drafted by the Roos or Saints unless they grew up supporting them?

I knew there would be some who would argue what a 'powerhouse club' looks like, but I think it would be hard to objectively argue that Carlton and Essendon aren't powerhouse clubs. The only argument you could really put forward is a lack of on field success in the last 20ish years, but there's obviously more to it than just on field success.

 

[Robroy22]

Didn't they? I thought this was public knowledge. Here's a link from April 2024 when it was reported that Collingwood were the frontrunners to land him.

‘Clear frontrunner’ for Dogs star Bailey Smith revealed as Magpies place ‘photo ban’ on trade target

‘Clear frontrunner’ for Dogs star revealed as Magpies place ‘photo ban’ on trade target

www.foxsports.com.au

I wasn't suggesting Danger had met with Melbourne clubs. Just that he could have gone to a big Melbourne club if he wanted to play in front of big crowds most weeks, but he chose against that. Obviously growing up in the Geelong area was a big factor for him and that's why I included other examples like Melbourne's Bailey Smith and Jeremy Cameron because they didn't have that natural connection to the area, but the point remains that Danger could've had his pick of the bunch when it came to clubs in Melbourne if he preferred playing in front of big crowds, but he chose Geelong instead. It's probably also important to point out that Geelong missed the finals in 2015 when Danger chose to join the Cats so they were going through a rebuilding/retooling phase when he made the decision and that rams home the idea of the lifestyle factor trumping success even more IMO.


Doesn't that prove my point? After playing in front of small crowds in western Sydney for 9 years, he didn't crave playing in front of big crowds for a club like Collingwood. He preferenced lifestyle over playing in front of big crowds on a regular basis. That's essentially the whole point of this thread. For context, Collingwood were in need of a tall forward and tried to lure Cameron as evidenced in the article below, but he chose the Cats in the end.

Cats coach confirms recent chat with Jeremy Cameron as Giant trade bombshell revealed

Cats coach confirms recent chat with Cameron as Giant trade bombshell revealed

www.foxsports.com.au

So, as expected you provide a Foxsports exclusive that's based on insta pix (and is an obvious ploy by Smith's manager to up the ante with the Cats).....
Oh yeah Pies were going down that avenue....not. They told the boys not to get more pix with Smith because of his rep, NOT because he was ever being sought by the club.
so, next bait please....that one's a definite piece of first class media tripe.

Oh and that proves your point about players NOT wanting to go to certain clubs, but just loving other ones?
As I pointed out both Patrick and Jezza grew up in the country...and both when given the choice wanted to go HOME. They sought things that Geelong FC provided. OK....terrific, but just as you're eluding (or trying to) they could have just as easily chosen to want to go to the Gold Coast....so why didn't they?
You're trying to cast aspersions against certain clubs (mainly a group of the older, more established Melbourne based clubs) because 2-3 players chose to return to their roots where they'd be near their families. What about Tom Lynch? Did he go to a big club? What about Steven May? How about Judd? Ablett Jnr?

We get that the Goldies are "Up and about" after last year and all the added herbs and spices that the AFL has lavished upon them, but I reckon history shows that players move for reasons better known only to themselves and that the media reports only superficially on these movements (spinning a narrative that sells news...or rather gossip)
The fact that every "name player" that's ever been involved in any trade or player movement gets linked to "Collingwood" is just lazy media and player managers attempting to manipulate better financial deals for their players. It's true the Pies were into Tom Lynch for quite a while before Richmond got him (but again that deal had a lot to do with Neil Balme switching his allegiances from Pies to Tiges and taking Tom Lynch with him).
Trying to make a case that Gun Players don't want to play for "Big Clubs" is just a little too generalised. Some might not want the limelight whilst others adore it, most players (particularly the guns these days) want to play for successful sides and ones that regularly contend for flags.
And a couple of the big clubs still do do this.

 

[GC2015]

There's a reason why Cameron, Smith and Co have chosen Geelong instead of West Coast.

Because they're from Victoria? I assume it's the same reason Tim Kelly wanted to go back to Perth after finishing fourth in the Brownlow in his second year with Geelong. There's obviously going to be a natural bias towards your home state with some players, but Victoria is unique in the sense that players theoretically have 10 separate options if they want to head home like Jeremy Cameron and Patrick Dangerfield did. Hence the reason I used the Cameron, Dangerfield and Smith examples because they're all Victorian and all could've gone to a big club if they wanted to, but all chose Geelong instead. Some want to head home / stay in their home state, others are keen to move elsewhere like Buddy Franklin and Joe Daniher. Just depends on what the player wants, but it does seem lifestyle is often a big factor when it comes to a lot of these high profile moves.

Geelong can give you the best of both worlds, lifestyle, anonymity to a certain degree and still play in MCG blockbusters, players no longer come to play with Melbourne clubs for the nightlife life anymore. Gone are the days when players would go out every night to the Tunnel, King Street clubs or Saloon Bar and stagger out of there at all hours and no one would know. They are attracted to powerhouse clubs in 2025 and can live well away from the limelight, go to training and just disappear into the suburbs. Players want lifestyle and to be left alone as much as possible these days and that means living some distance from their place of work. I wonder how many hearts sink deep down when they are drafted by the Roos or Saints unless they grew up supporting them?

That's a fair point. Playing for Geelong and living in the area does seem to offer a good balance of lifestyle, anonymity and limelight. You see videos of Jeremy Cameron just enjoying life on his farm and you wouldn't think he was even a footballer if you didn't already know. I'm sure life is very different for a guy like Nick Daicos.

So, as expected you provide a Foxsports exclusive that's based on insta pix (and is an obvious ploy by Smith's manager to up the ante with the Cats).....
Oh yeah Pies were going down that avenue....not. They told the boys not to get more pix with Smith because of his rep, NOT because he was ever being sought by the club.

Yeah, look. We'll obviously never truly know, but my read on the situation at the time was Collingwood were interested in Bailey Smith and turned their attention to Christian Petracca at a certain point in time. Were they ever truly the frontrunner for Smith or even interested at all? Who knows. It's all speculation unless you have definitive proof, but I'm just basing these opinions on reports from the media. Could be way off.

Oh and that proves your point about players NOT wanting to go to certain clubs, but just loving other ones?

Proves the point in the sense that Collingwood tried to recruit Jeremy Cameron and he chose Geelong after playing in front of small crowds for 9 years at GWS. There wasn't a strong desire to play in front of big crowds most weeks like he would if he chose the Pies.

As I pointed out both Patrick and Jezza grew up in the country...and both when given the choice wanted to go HOME. They sought things that Geelong FC provided. OK....terrific, but just as you're eluding (or trying to) they could have just as easily chosen to want to go to the Gold Coast....so why didn't they?

Because they wanted to go home to Victoria? As I mentioned earlier in this post, some want to go home and others want to get away, but players have many options when it comes to going to Victoria and we're not seeing an even spread of talent in that regard. They are preferencing certain clubs over others and I think lifestyle is a big factor when it comes to these decisions. If it's not already clear, I think the lifestyle that comes with playing for a powerhouse club like Carlton, Collingwood or Essendon may actually be a deterrent these days, whereas it was probably advantageous when it came to recruitment in the past.

You're trying to cast aspersions against certain clubs (mainly a group of the older, more established Melbourne based clubs) because 2-3 players chose to return to their roots where they'd be near their families.

Well you can't say Bailey Smith went back to his roots. He's a Melbourne boy who chose to leave Melbourne for Geelong. Fair enough with Danger and possibly even Cameron considering he grew up in the country.

Trying to make a case that Gun Players don't want to play for "Big Clubs" is just a little too generalised. Some might not want the limelight whilst others adore it, most players (particularly the guns these days) want to play for successful sides and ones that regularly contend for flags.
And a couple of the big clubs still do do this.

Of course it's more nuanced than just 'not wanting to play for a big club'. I'm sure the lack of success for Carlton and Essendon in the last 20ish years has hurt them when it comes to recruitment, but there's more to it than just that. Money can be a big factor too - but Dusty Martin would be a good example of a guy who turned down enormous money from the Roos to remain where he was comfortable and continue chasing success with Richmond. So there's lots of factors that go into it, but the main question I'm trying to ask here is whether playing for a big club is not as appealing is it was in the past. That's not to say it's no longer appealing to play for a powerhouse club, just whether it's less appealing these days.

Look at what just happened with Carlton. They did a tremendous job when it came to keep their young players together for so long, but the media/fan pressure seemed to get to them in the end and guys like TDK + Curnow had enough. Obviously there was a financial factor at play for TDK, but he still chose to leave and I think it was made pretty clear that Curnow was seeking a cruisier lifestyle when it emerged that he wanted to leave the Blues. I can't imagine being inside the four walls of a powerhouse club would be an enjoyable place to be when you're underperforming like that.

 

[Demon in Hell]

There's a reason why Cameron, Smith and Co have chosen Geelong instead of West Coast.

Is it because of the free Cotton On franchises or is because of the free farms.

 

[HairyO]

How come you didn't mention Geelong as a powerhouse club? They've won the most games and have the most All Australian selections no one else comes close.

Yeah those AA jackets are way more important than premiership rings.

Any player not putting flags ahead of everything else isnt serious about football. Plenty are in it for the cash and perks but the best players just want flags.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Is that true about Geelong and cotton on ships and farms etc?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I think above all, players will prioritise success. After they’ve won a flag or something they may prioritise money - and some may even do that beforehand - but I think largely, players are driven by success.

Where I think being a “powerhouse” is useful is when you’re trying to sell the prospect of success. If you’ve got a few clubs chasing you, all of whom are working just on the “prospect” of success, then the big club probably has the advantage as the lure of being part of the group that delivers it is bigger. The odd time Essendon have managed to land a decent player, they’ve spoken about that (or maybe they’ve really just paid them more, who knows).

But if a club comes knocking that is clearly in their premiership window right now, then they’ll attract the player, no matter who the club is.

 

[GC2015]

I think above all, players will prioritise success. After they’ve won a flag or something they may prioritise money - and some may even do that beforehand - but I think largely, players are driven by success.

Where I think being a “powerhouse” is useful is when you’re trying to sell the prospect of success. If you’ve got a few clubs chasing you, all of whom are working just on the “prospect” of success, then the big club probably has the advantage as the lure of being part of the group that delivers it is bigger. The odd time Essendon have managed to land a decent player, they’ve spoken about that (or maybe they’ve really just paid them more, who knows).

But if a club comes knocking that is clearly in their premiership window right now, then they’ll attract the player, no matter who the club is.

This is a big part of the reason that I showed the comparison in premierships won by the 3 powerhouse clubs in the last 75 years in the OP. So you've got 3 flags won between 2000-2025, 9 flags won between 1975-1999 and 8 flags won between 1950-1974. So it's very clear that there's been a dramatic drop off of success this century and 1 of those 3 flags barely makes it in (Essendon in 2000) so it's actually only 2 flags in the last 25 years and both were won by Collingwood. The prospect of success with the 3 powerhouse clubs just isn't there in the way it used to be prior to 2000 and I think it's fair to say that's hurt the big 3 when it comes to recruitment this century because, like you say, players do tend to prioritise success (or at least the prospect of success).

Interestingly, a lot of this changeover period of success from powerhouse clubs winning regularly every 3ish years to only winning a flag once every 12.5 years in the last 25 seasons, seems to coincide with abolishment of the old VFL zones in the late 80s, the establishment of a proper national draft in the late 80s, the league turning fully professional in the 90s and the inclusion of more teams around Australia entering in the late 80s/90s. The 90s were really the transition period where most of those changes were felt and it also happened to be the last period in which the 3 powerhouse clubs were winning regularly. The equalisation methods that the AFL introduced in the late 80s/90s really did halt the domination of success we saw from the 3 powerhouse clubs and that has appeared to result in a greater spread of talent around the league these days.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

This is a big part of the reason that I showed the comparison in premierships won by the 3 powerhouse clubs in the last 75 years in the OP. So you've got 3 flags won between 2000-2025, 9 flags won between 1975-1999 and 8 flags won between 1950-1974. So it's very clear that there's been a dramatic drop off of success this century and 1 of those 3 flags barely makes it in (Essendon in 2000) so it's actually only 2 flags in the last 25 years and both were won by Collingwood. The prospect of success with the 3 powerhouse clubs just isn't there in the way it used to be prior to 2000 and I think it's fair to say that's hurt the big 3 when it comes to recruitment this century because, like you say, players do tend to prioritise success (or at least the prospect of success).

Interestingly, a lot of this changeover period of success from powerhouse clubs winning regularly every 3ish years to only winning a flag once every 12.5 years in the last 25 seasons, seems to coincide with abolishment of the old VFL zones in the late 80s, the establishment of a proper national draft in the late 80s, the league turning fully professional in the 90s and the inclusion of more teams around Australia entering in the late 80s/90s. The 90s were really the transition period where most of those changes were felt and it also happened to be the last period in which the 3 powerhouse clubs were winning regularly. The equalisation methods that the AFL introduced in the late 80s/90s really did halt the domination of success we saw from the 3 powerhouse clubs and that has appeared to result in a greater spread of talent around the league these days.

Absolutely, equalisation has largely worked.

And interestingly, some of the most successful clubs in recent years have benefited hugely from factors that bypass equalisation, such as father/son. Geelong did very well out of it, as have Brisbane. Only natural.