Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[RedmanWasHere]

Do we know how old she is and who her dad is?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

RedmanWasHere - Lisa Hardeman - any relation to Gary or is it Gary HardemaNN ?

From her APM page

Born and bred in Melbourne’s western suburbs, Lisa is an avid Western Bulldogs supporter. She had a distinguished football career herself but is best known for her role in the creation of a national women’s football competition. Lisa sat on the inaugural Victorian Football League (VFL) Women’s Advisory Committee, advising on the history and future of women’s football, the fastest growing sport for women in Australia.

Lisa was admitted into the Victoria Police Sporting Hall of Fame (2017) for achievements in football and awarded the Australian Police Medal in the 2018 Australia Day awards. The Melbourne and Western Bulldogs football clubs’ women’s teams have played for the Hampson– Hardeman Cup since 2013. Each year, Lisa presents the Lisa Hardeman Medal to the player voted best on ground in the VFL Grand Final.

Upon checking and looking, I've found a Lisa Hardeman living in Spotswood in 1980 courtesy of the electoral roll.

She's living with a Gillian, Graeme and Steven Hardeman.

HARDEMAN, Graeme | Death Notices | Melbourne | My Tributes

Hardeman, Graeme Leslie11/8/1935 - 13/2/2023Dearly loved husband of Gillian for 64 years, best friend and soulmate.Life will not be the same without you.Loving…

www.mytributes.com.au

This obit mentions all 4 of the above names.


Lisa's VicPol career seems to have started in 1983 which could marry up with the electoral roll finding.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

The above Lisa Hardeman has her middle name 'Joy' listed in the 1980 electoral roll.

Something of possible interest.

https://www.gg.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-02/ad18_media_notes_-_meritorious1.pdf.

Tangential slightly.

 

[rbartlett]

Howdy,
Apparently in the Season Guide for the last year or so is a page detailing TV commentators of each Grand Final. Is anyone able to scan that page if they have it in their collection please.

Cheers
Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

Howdy,
Apparently in the Season Guide for the last year or so is a page detailing TV commentators of each Grand Final. Is anyone able to scan that page if they have it in their collection please.

Cheers
Rhett

3 pages! FWIW I find it quite difficult taking photos from that book in the night time (pesky shadows get in the way), so apologies for the fact these aren't particularly clear!:



I could try again in the morning (shadows will be gone!) if these aren't clear enough.

 

[rbartlett]

3 pages! FWIW I find it quite difficult taking photos from that book in the night time (pesky shadows get in the way), so apologies for the fact these aren't particularly clear!:
View attachment 2564860
View attachment 2564864
View attachment 2564871
I could try again in the morning (shadows will be gone!) if these aren't clear enough.

That quality is fine thank you Daics, I appreciate that.

I was just checking because I'm pretty certain my father was special comments in the 1987 ABC broadcast not Doug Heywood.

Ive got the full game here in my vault so I will listen back to it

 

[rbartlett]

I'm trying to fill in some of the TV Grand Final broadcasts gap, to perhaps send to the AFL at end of year,
I'm about 80% fine back to 1957.

But for the life of me I can't find who called:

1960 - ABC commentators
1961 - ABC seems to have only shown highlights, but were their own commentator there MAY NOT HAVE BEEN INVITED
1961 - Ch 9 commentators
1962 - Ch 7 commentators ( I assuming Williamson and someone)
1964 - ABC again did highlights for their footy panel, but did anyone actually commentate it. WILL HAVE TO SOURCE THEIR BROADCAST
1966 - ABC - did Roy Wright join the broadcast? He's listed on the TV guide with Mason, Bigelow. And we know Dakin is on the tv youtube broadcast, but does Wright appear during the telecast? WILL HAVE TO WATCH BROADCAST WHICH IS UP ON YOUTUBE
1968 - ABC commentators
1969- Ch9 commentators

 

[Gibbsy]

I'm trying to fill in some of the TV Grand Final broadcasts gap, to perhaps send to the AFL at end of year,
I'm about 80% fine back to 1957.

But for the life of me I can't find who called:

1960 - ABC commentators
1961 - ABC seems to have only shown highlights, but were their own commentator there
1961 - Ch 9 commentators
1962 - Ch 7 commentators ( I assuming Williamson and someone)
1964 - ABC again did highlights for their footy panel, but did anyone actually commentate it.
1966 - ABC - did Roy Wright join the broadcast? He's listed on the TV guide with Mason, Bigelow. And we know Dakin is on the tv youtube broadcast, but does Wright appear during the telecast?
1968 - ABC commentators
1969- Ch9 commentators

It's hard to tell with most of these; no doubt you have been going back through the old Age TV guides and trying to figure it out from there? They are more likely to list radio commentators than TV commentators it seems.

1961: I don't think ABC would have used their own commentary team as according to this article they weren't even invited to the game. Couldn't find any commentary for GTV-9.



1962: Ch 7 had Mike Williamson and Butch Gale on comms.



1964: No mention of specific commentators. HSV-7 and GTV-9 had the full replays each at 6:00pm, ABV-2 had highlights and a panel discussion from 8:00–8:30pm, and ATV-0 also had an hour of discussion, interviews and higlights from 9:00–10:00pm. Not to mention country channels like GLV-10 (Traralgon), BCV-8 (Bendigo) and BTV-6 (Ballarat) also took replays or highlights!

ABV-2's program was as below:




1969: Looks like the GTV-9 line-up of commentators was Jim Taylor, Norm Smith, Paddy Guinane and Alan Killigrew.



FWIW, the ABC took Channel 7's coverage and broadcast it at the same time, but interrupted by 18 minutes of news and weather at half time.

 

[rbartlett]

Appreciate that thank you. Yes I had been looking through the Age newspapers and missed a couple that you picked.
In some cases its hard to figure out who was calling and who is there for a footy program. Lke ABCs 1964. So no point putting all those names down for instance because they were most likely a panel discussion around the highlights.

Any yes, I'm slowly working through the radio commentators as well.

 

[rbartlett]

Pretty much collated Radio GF broadcasts from 1924 - 1957 (introduction of tv boradcasts)
A few outstanding questions that I may have missed going cross-eyed doing research

3LO/ 3AR
1925-1945 is alternated between 3AR and 3LO with no rhyme or reason (so it wasn't one year on and off).
Just not sure who called:
1929 3LO GF - either Mel Morris or Rod McGregor or both
1933 3LO GF -either combination of Mel Morris Rod McGregor or Sharland
*1934 3LO GF
1935 3LO GF -either combination of Mel Morris Rod McGregor or Sharland
1938 + 1939 3AR GF - either combination of Mel Morris, McGregor
1942 3LO GF
1948 and 19348 replay 3AR - probably Mel Morris , along with possibly his brother Les who did the following year together.


Now I can most likely say it was Mel Morris because upon his retirement in 1951 the newspaper says he had called abc sports for more than 20 years - but was hoping for it to be written somewhere in one of the newspapers at the time for each season.

1934 is a bit odd, as Rod McGregor and Jumbo Sharland clearly call a match earlier in the season, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article183733439 , but Mel Morris also called a game too http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164470199 , so unsure who did 1934 GF

3GL
Obviously 3GL (Geelong) broadcast GF matches too, and I seem to have them first in 1947, which doesn't soud right as I'm sure there is earlier, but can't quite find an GF broadcast earlier than that for them.
Plus I can't quite find them broadcasting 1948 GF and 1948 GF replay, but they must have has I have 1947 and 1949.
Reg Gray and Ivor Grundy seem to be the callers during the season, so I assume they were the GF callers even though advertising doesnt mention the callers.

3KZ
1948GF and 1948 GF replay - I assume Norman Banks called this, but cant find the evidence

Also, Norman Banks citation at MCC Media says he called footy in 1931 for 3KZ. 3KZ certainly broadcast matches during the season, but I can't quite find any reference to them calling the 1931 Grand Final.

3DB
1951 - unknown, - did they call this match. I have 1950 callers (which I believe is their first year), and 1952, so did they miss the 1951 grand final ?

3XY
Just making sure there's no earlier GF broadcast by them prior to 1956 which is when I have them starting.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Rod McGregor

His wife was Alice Bickford, the sister of Albert and Edric Bickford.

Albert married my 3rd great-uncle.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'm posting here in the hope some of the regulars can review the below and ideally help confirm my thinking/research

I've been working on properly identifying VFA players from the 1890s and came across Frank Bray who played for Richmond in 1893 (coming from Marylebone) and then St Kilda in 1895. In 1894 he was linked with moves to both North Melbourne and Port Melbourne but seemed to end up back at Marylebone.

Permits identify him as "F. P. Bray" and looking at Victorian BDM the only Victorian birth that is feasible with those initials is Francis Patrick Bray - birth registered in 1876 in Richmond, son of John Michael Bray (1833–1922) and Bridget Maher (1839–1907). This is the name that Pennings has in his books that cover the VFA in the 1890s. (note: it is always possible that there was a typo in the surname, initials or an interstate/overseas birth though)

F. P. Bray appears to have gone to school at Christian Brothers College and his family was fairly well off - father's occupation being "independent means"!

First key question: Is Francis Patrick Bray definitely the person who played for Richmond and St Kilda?

Bray took a role in mine management in Tasmania, then one in Victoria and then was in America in 1904 as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162256596 F. P. Bray then spent several years spent mining in West Africa: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199447937

This article describes his mining career, and references that he was born in Richmond. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227872443

Second key question: Is the mining guy definitely the same person as the footballer - are there any sources that indicate this?

The really interesting part is then from this WWI notice - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155135284 which says:
"Major Frank P. BRAY, son of Mr, John Bray, of Middle Park, has been reported missing in France. He was commanding the 518th London Field Co., Royal Engineers, British Expeditionary Forces." He was later confirmed as dead.

His father, John, was the only John Bray living at Albert Park/Middle Park in 1918 according to electoral records

So Frank Bray was serving in the British Army when he died (which probably explains why no one seems to have come across this before) - according to official records his death date was 23 Mar 1918.

This is him at Australian War Memorial: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P11039007

Third key question: Are we 100% sure this WWI death is the for same Francis Patrick Bray?

I'm asking because this would add a war death to the historical records for both Richmond and St Kilda and both clubs will want as solid evidence as we can possibly gather before any change is made

rbartlett

 

[35Daicos]

I'm posting here in the hope some of the regulars can review the below and ideally help confirm my thinking/research

I've been working on properly identifying VFA players from the 1890s and came across Frank Bray who played for Richmond in 1893 (coming from Marylebone) and then St Kilda in 1895. In 1894 he was linked with moves to both North Melbourne and Port Melbourne but seemed to end up back at Marylebone.

Permits identify him as "F. P. Bray" and looking at Victorian BDM the only Victorian birth that is feasible with those initials is Francis Patrick Bray - birth registered in 1876 in Richmond, son of John Michael Bray (1833–1922) and Bridget Maher (1839–1907). This is the name that Pennings has in his books that cover the VFA in the 1890s. (note: it is always possible that there was a typo in the surname, initials or an interstate/overseas birth though)

F. P. Bray appears to have gone to school at Christian Brothers College and his family was fairly well off - father's occupation being "independent means"!

First key question: Is Francis Patrick Bray definitely the person who played for Richmond and St Kilda?

Bray took a role in mine management in Tasmania, then one in Victoria and then was in America in 1904 as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162256596 F. P. Bray then spent several years spent mining in West Africa: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199447937

This article describes his mining career, and references that he was born in Richmond. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227872443

Second key question: Is the mining guy definitely the same person as the footballer - are there any sources that indicate this?

The really interesting part is then from this WWI notice - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155135284 which says:
"Major Frank P. BRAY, son of Mr, John Bray, of Middle Park, has been reported missing in France. He was commanding the 518th London Field Co., Royal Engineers, British Expeditionary Forces." He was later confirmed as dead.

His father, John, was the only John Bray living at Albert Park/Middle Park in 1918 according to electoral records

So Frank Bray was serving in the British Army when he died (which probably explains why no one seems to have come across this before) - according to official records his death date was 23 Mar 1918.

This is him at Australian War Memorial: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P11039007

Third key question: Are we 100% sure this WWI death is the for same Francis Patrick Bray?

I'm asking because this would add a war death to the historical records for both Richmond and St Kilda and both clubs will want as solid evidence as we can possibly gather before any change is made

rbartlett

I think it just has to be the same person all the way through! Proving it is another matter! This must be Francis Patrick Bray involved as a player and official with Albert Park Cricket Club:


That^ should be him at his father's address. From Sands & McDougall 1900:




That will be him playing cricket in Tasmania in 1901. And probably him here as well:

None of that proves he was the footballer from a few years earlier, but it does show that he was the "sporty type".

I think this will be his brother, secretary of East Richmond FC in 1888:

Francis Patrick did have lots of siblings:

He also seems to have been the "sporty type":


==========================================================================================================================

This is another brother, and he appears to have been a decent name in cycling:


Yet another brother, William John Bray, was elected a councillor for Richmond in 1894, so there was still a strong family connection at around the time Francis Patrick Bray played for Richmond.
=======================================================================================================================
We know F. P. Bray was with Marylebone in 1893 prior to joining Richmond that year, and fair chance he was playing with brother John here:

 

[rbartlett]

Although presented with guernsey number 39 before the game, Flynn Perez of Hawthorn wore No. 40 in his debut game due to sizing issue.
AFLTables, AustFootball will need to be updated.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Although presented with guernsey number 39 before the game, Flynn Perez of Hawthorn wore No. 40 in his debut game due to sizing issue.View attachment 2578043
AFLTables, AustFootball will need to be updated.

I can only guess Flynn's Gather Round guernsey will be more of a fit for him.

 

[stemline]

Apparently jumper 39 did not have the Dare To Hope logo.

 

[Oliver G]

Although presented with guernsey number 39 before the game, Flynn Perez of Hawthorn wore No. 40 in his debut game due to sizing issue.
AFLTables, AustFootball will need to be updated.

Thanks Rhett. For reference, these are the jumper numbers I have in my records for V/AFL and AFLW matches since 2017. This includes both jumper changers that were worn for the entire match, and ones switched out during the game. If anyone has any more and or corrections, please do let me know, and I'll update AF.

2026
V/AFL
R4 - Flynn Perez (Hawthorn) - #40 instead of #39

2024
AFLW
R6 - Brooke Lochland (Sydney) - #34 instead of #1

2023
V/AFL
R24 - James Blanck (Hawthorn) - #39 instead of #36

AFLW
R7 - Breanna Koenen (Brisbane) - #32 instead of #3
1QF - Najwa Allen (Adelaide) - #19 instead of #8

2022
V/AFL
R2 - Xavier Duursma (Port Adelaide) - #50 instead of #7

West Coast - COVID Top Up Players
Brayden Ainsworth wore #33 in R2
Aaron Black wore #26 in R2
Angus Dewar wore #39 in R2
Stefan Giro wore #22 in R2
Declan Mountford wore #31 in R2 and #47 in R8
Patrick Naish wore #36 R1-R2, #28 R3-R8, #43 R9-R12
The AFL API (AFL website) had the wrong numbers for several of the West Coast top-up players, the above have been confirmed to be the correct jumper numbers.

AFLW
2022B
R3 - Ashlee Atkins (Gold Coast) - #42 instead of #37
R4 - Orla O’Dwyer (Brisbane) - #19 instead of #9
R8 - Lauren Szigeti (Sydney) - #29 instead of #28
R9 - Tarni White (St Kilda) - #41 instead of #9
Amy McDonald (Geelong) wore #55 in R3 and R7 instead of #3

2021
AFLW
R5 - Cathy Svarc (Brisbane) #11 instead of #25

2019
V/AFL
R11 - David Mundy (Fremantle) - #23 instead of #16

2018
V/AFL
R15 - Lin Jong (Western Bulldogs) - #24 instead of #46
R20 - Brody Mihocek (Collingwood) - #23 instead of #41

2017
V/AFL
Sir Doug Nicholls Round (R10) changes to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1967 Australian Aboriginal referendum…

#50
Dayne Beams (Brisbane)
Shannon Hurn (West Coast)
Neville Jetta (Melbourne)
Tom Lynch (Gold Coast)
Dane Rampe (Sydney

#67

Shaun Burgoyne (Hawthorn)
Shane Edwards (Richmond)
Lance Franklin (Hawthorn)
Jeff Garlett (Melbourne)
Josh Hill (West Coast)
Daniel Wells (Collingwood)
Zac Williams (GWS)

AFLW
R3 - Taylah Angel (Fremantle) - #25 instead of #9
R3 - Lauren Tesoriero (Collingwood) - #13 instead of #7
Kira Phillips (Fremantle) wore #9 in R3 and #13 for the remainder of the season.

 

[Oliver G]

Oliver, I'm quite puzzled with this one, and wondering if you have any more info on it!:
View attachment 2579201
That was Brody's Collingwood debut. The Rd. 11 Football Record had him set to wear #41:
View attachment 2579267
View attachment 2579283

You can see him in every quarter of the game here, always with #41 on his back:


I just can't see why, or when, he'd have had a different jumper number in that game!!

Sorry that should be R20 2018 vs. Sydney at the SCG, I've updated the original post.

 

[35Daicos]

Okay, that makes a difference!

Here we see him in the opening seconds of the game (wearing #23):

And he still has it on in the last quarter:

 

[Oliver G]

Okay, then!:

Here he is, 23 visible in the bottom right on the second screenshot...

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Here he is, 23 visible in the bottom right on the second screenshot...

View attachment 2579560
View attachment 2579562

As an aside, the guernsey here suits the Swans.

 

[35Daicos]

Here he is, 23 visible in the bottom right on the second screenshot...

View attachment 2579560
View attachment 2579562

Thanks for that. We don't have that on Collingwood Forever, so I'll pass it on to my Collingwood 'contacts'.

 

[35Daicos]

Sorry that should be R20 2018 vs. Sydney at the SCG, I've updated the original post.

The club did have that change in it's records, but for some reason it hadn't made its way onto Collingwood Forever. It's fixed now!: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/brody-mihocek

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I think it just has to be the same person all the way through!

I've now spent quite a bit of time now looking through Trove, BDM and Ancestry records and I'm confident there aren't any other viable candidates - I am confident that “F. P. Bray,” who played for Richmond (1893) and St Kilda (1895), is Francis Patrick Bray (1876–1918), and further, that he is the same individual as Major Frank P. Bray (Royal Engineers), who was killed in action in France on 23 March 1918.

1. Identification of “F. P. Bray” (footballer)

The player recorded as “F. P. Bray” appears as playing for:

• Marylebone (1892-1894)
• Richmond (1893)
• St Kilda (1895)

A review of Victorian birth records (1860–1880), electoral rolls, and marriage records was undertaken to identify all candidates matching the name “F. Bray.”

Family name	Given name(s)	Event	Mother's given names	Mother's family name at birth	Father's name	Place of birth	Reg. year	Reg. number
BRAY	Frederick James	Birth	Lizzy	DOYLE	BRAY, James Edwin	WAH'GAH	1866	11786/1866
BRAY	Robert Ford	Birth	Jane	KNEEBONE	BRAY, Robert Ford	EAGLEHAWK	1867	21567/1867
BRAY	Thomas Joseph Franklin	Birth	Maria	WHITE	BRAY, John	RICH	1868	11640/1868
BRAY	Robert Ford	Birth	Abigail Jane	TREGONING	BRAY, James	BALL	1872	7039/1872
BRAY	Francis	Birth	Sarah	SHUEARD	BRAY, William	ST AR	1875	5716/1875
BRAY	Francis Patrick	Birth	Bridget Maria	MAHER	BRAY, John	RICH	1876	18566/1876
BRAY	Frank Davies	Birth	Elizabeth	DAVIES	BRAY, Samuel	NAPOLEONS	1877	4228/1877

​

This process identified Francis Patrick Bray, born 1876 in Richmond (son of John Michael Bray and Bridget Maher), as the only credible candidate.

Other individuals with similar names were excluded on the basis of:

• Inconsistent initials (e.g. Thomas Joseph Franklin Bray consistently recorded as “T. J.” or “T. J. F.”)
• Residence in regional Victoria with no link to the South Melbourne/Richmond area
• No evidence of presence in metropolitan Melbourne during the relevant period

No alternative candidate has been identified despite exhaustive searching, including phonetic variants.

2. Alignment with known biographical details

Francis Patrick Bray aligns closely with the known profile of the footballer:

• Born in Richmond, consistent with early association with the Richmond club and family lived in Richmond/South Melb areas
• Of appropriate age (17–19 during playing years)
• Demonstrated involvement in organised sport (including administration of sporting events in Victoria & Tasmania)
• Family connection to elite football (younger brother, Joseph Michael Bray, played VFL football with Melbourne in 1908 and points raised by 35Daicos in his earlier post)

No evidence has been located that contradicts this identification.

3. Confirmation Francis Patrick Bray was a mining engineer

Contemporary newspaper reports (Trove) document a mining engineer named “F. P. Bray” / “Frank P. Bray” whose career included:

• Tasmania (mine management roles 1899-1903)
• United States (c.1904-05)
• Victoria (mine management role 1906-07)
• West Africa (extended period from 1908)

Crucially, at least one article explicitly states that this individual was born in Richmond, directly aligning with Francis Patrick Bray.

This establishes, to a high degree of confidence, that the mining engineer and Francis Patrick Bray are the same individual.

4. Identification of WWI casualty

A World War I notice reports: “Major Frank P. Bray, son of Mr John Bray, of Middle Park, has been reported missing in France…”

He was subsequently confirmed killed in action on 23 March 1918 while serving with the Royal Engineers.

Supporting evidence:

• Father’s name matches (John Bray) and electoral rolls indicate only one plausible John Bray in the Middle Park/Albert Park area at the time
• Age is consistent with a man born in 1876
• Professional background (mining engineer) strongly aligns with commissioning in the Royal Engineers

This provides a strong and coherent link between:
Francis Patrick Bray → mining engineer → Major Frank P. Bray (WWI casualty)

5. Conclusion

My conclusion is that:

Francis Patrick Bray (1876–1918) is, to a very high degree of probability, the same person as “F. P. Bray” who played for Richmond (1893) and St Kilda (1895), and the same individual who died as Major Frank P. Bray (Royal Engineers) on 23 March 1918.

While no single document has been located that explicitly links his football career to his later life, the cumulative evidence leaves no reasonable alternative identification.

 

[GreyCrow]

A World War I notice reports: “Major Frank P. Bray, son of Mr John Bray, of Middle Park, has been reported missing in France…”

He was subsequently confirmed killed in action on 23 March 1918 while serving with the Royal Engineers.

Supporting evidence:

• Father’s name matches (John Bray) and electoral rolls indicate only one plausible John Bray in the Middle Park/Albert Park area at the time
• Age is consistent with a man born in 1876
• Professional background (mining engineer) strongly aligns with commissioning in the Royal Engineers

This provides a strong and coherent link between:
Francis Patrick Bray → mining engineer → Major Frank P. Bray (WWI casualty)

5. Conclusion

My conclusion is that:

Francis Patrick Bray (1876–1918) is, to a very high degree of probability, the same person as “F. P. Bray” who played for Richmond (1893) and St Kilda (1895), and the same individual who died as Major Frank P. Bray (Royal Engineers) on 23 March 1918.

While no single document has been located that explicitly links his football career to his later life, the cumulative evidence leaves no reasonable alternative identification.

1919 notice adds the mothers name as Bridget M ( dec) and I found she died 1907 aged 57

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 24 Mar 1919

nla.gov.au