List Mgmt. 2026 List management - pt.1

[Hugga]

Perhaps an opportunity to retire Butler and add Jayden Davey or Tex Wanganeen to this spot as backup small forward position. I've been impressed with Davey in the VFL this year.

 

[jwikked]

Hunter is a gun .... unfortunately his playing time has been curtailed by some pretty unfortunate injuries .... he is only 27 and contracted to end of 2027 so the naysayers are just gunna have to suck it up

A gun for 55% of the game, assuming he plays

 

[gringo2011]

I'll have a bit of Jack Mayo in the MSD please

We have had a few guys that were unlucky with injury that could have been super handy. Eli Templeton was one of the guns of the VFL after he got dumped. If injury hadn't got him I reckon he would have been a gun. Mayo and Jack Hayes too. Mayo coming on might have cost us looking at Sharman I guess.

 

[gringo2011]

Must keep Darcy Wilson.

It really shouldn't be a situation where we lose him due to cap space and if it is SOS has to be looked at.

 

[Sully111]

Hunter Clark

11

Hunter Clark

Age

27

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.9

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

was playing well for us.

Once he's over the latest injury, he'll most likely get picked and play well for us again.

The injury thing sucks, but as long as he's playing good footy when he's on the park he's a handy player to have on our list.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I'll have a bit of Jack Mayo in the MSD please

Take the piss whatever you want ... I disagree with your standard negative take

Negative because i dont think hunter is a Gun , Please , Take a nap would you

 

[thekizzler]

It really shouldn't be a situation where we lose him due to cap space and if it is SOS has to be looked at.

Can't agree with this.

You can't legislate for players getting offered huge amounts over their value and taking the money.

It isn't really black or white - when it comes to this.

If we push up the ladder, we are probably going to lose some players.

Take Sydney over the years. Off the top of my head, they have lost Brownlow Medallist Tom Mitchell, Adelaide captain Jordan Dawson, Will Hayward and Ollie Florent recently. There are heaps of examples.

Until it gets to the point, where players start taking less money because the prospect of success looks imminent, it's going to be a juggle and even then we still might lose some players.

This is not directed at you but the bedwetters in general. Sometimes bad things or frustrating things happen in football but not all of those situations need aggressive blame attached to them.

 

[Nutsngum]

Neither do I. Thought North Melbourne shut down those talks and jettisoned Tom Campbell to us instead. The next year they shifted Goldstein to full forward from opening round and handed Xerri the #1 ruck role.

Edit. Sorry thought we were talking about Big X. Play on.

I really feel like there was more to this (lack of) trade then was made out as a future 2nd wasnt exactly super crazy for a prospect we obviously rated.

 

[gringo2011]

Can't agree with this.

You can't legislate for players getting offered huge amounts over their value and taking the money.

It isn't really black or white - when it comes to this.

If we push up the ladder, we are probably going to lose some players.

Take Sydney over the years. Off the top of my head, they have lost Brownlow Medallist Tom Mitchell, Adelaide captain Jordan Dawson, Will Hayward and Ollie Florent recently. There are heaps of examples.

Until it gets to the point, where players start taking less money because the prospect of success looks imminent, it's going to be a juggle and even then we still might lose some players.

This is not directed at you but the bedwetters in general. Sometimes bad things or frustrating things happen in football but not all of those situations need aggressive blame attached to them.

Jordan Dawson only wanted to go home to SA, it wasn't money. Mitchell was considered excess to needs, they let him walk because they preferred others. The others are established GOPs. Wilson is an up and coming gun. If paying too much for TDK costs us our elite young talent then we are getting it wrong. It would be like Sydney letting 19 year old Heeney go because they were shitty about him wanting an extra $200k per year.

There is no world where letting the semi developed youth go before they peak is good management. He looks set to be potentially elite.

Let him walk then we step backwards as a side with a draft pick realistically not coming on for 4 to 5 years, long after Wilkie, Sincs and co are gone and we are back to building up. If we lose ground with the competition we are likely to leak more promising kids eager for success too.

People are losing their shit because Travaglia is still developing like a normal AFL player does. If we swap Wilson for another Travaglia I don't see how we are progressing forward.

Pollyannas making excuses for poor management don't hold the moral high ground. You just look like sycophantic nuffies.

 

[thekizzler]

Jordan Dawson only wanted to go home to SA, it wasn't money. Mitchell was considered excess to needs, they let him walk because they preferred others. The others are established GOPs. Wilson is an up and coming gun. If paying too much for TDK costs us our elite young talent then we are getting it wrong. It would be like Sydney letting 19 year old Heeney go because they were shitty about him wanting an extra $200k per year.

There is no world where letting the semi developed youth go before they peak is good management. He looks set to be potentially elite.

Let him walk then we step backwards as a side with a draft pick realistically not coming on for 4 to 5 years, long after Wilkie, Sincs and co are gone and we are back to building up. If we lose ground with the competition we are likely to leak more promising kids eager for success too.

People are losing their shit because Travaglia is still developing like a normal AFL player does. If we swap Wilson for another Travaglia I don't see how we are progressing forward.

Pollyannas making excuses for poor management don't hold the moral high ground. You just look like sycophantic nuffies.

Negs - it just isn't a good or rational argument.

First of all, it's the worrying (or bedwetting - if you want to call it that - over two things that haven't happened yet) - Wilson leaving and TDK not contributing to success or flag over his contract.

If we lose multiple players and TDK is no good/doesn't contribute to success, well yeah - I guess we've cooked it.

But it's ridiculously premature to even suggest the above is happening or has happened.

If we keep producing gun youngsters, something is going to give.

If Wilson, Garcia, Tauru, Banfield - among others - become absolute weapons and get offered all they money in the world down the line to go elsewhere, it's going to be pretty close to impossible to keep them all - regardless of any other salary cap decision.

Unless some choose to stay for less - which will hopefully come once we are close to success/having success.

It's good development and drafting if you are selecting player after player that other clubs want to pay big money for.

It's been done to death that we overpaid to bring TDK in the club but we needed to overpay to secure him.

And fact is if TDK forms part of a ruck partnership with Marshall and/or Dodson down the line, that performs anything like it did against Carlton most weeks, we hopefully might realise we haven't overpaid in a few years time.

Sycophantic nuffies? Lol. I'd rather look at what's right in front of my face than worrying about things that haven't happened.

 

[gringo2011]

Negs - it just isn't a good or rational argument.

First of all, it's the worrying (or bedwetting - if you want to call it that - over two things that haven't happened yet) - Wilson leaving and TDK not contributing to success or flag over his contract.

If we lose multiple players and TDK is no good/doesn't contribute to success, well yeah - I guess we've cooked it.

But it's ridiculously premature to even suggest the above is happening or has happened.

If we keep producing gun youngsters, something is going to give.

If Wilson, Garcia, Tauru, Banfield - among others - become absolute weapons and get offered all they money in the world down the line to go elsewhere, it's going to be pretty close to impossible to keep them all - regardless of any other salary cap decision.

Unless some choose to stay for less - which will hopefully come once we are close to success/having success.

It's good development and drafting if you are selecting player after player that other clubs want to pay big money for.

It's been done to death that we overpaid to bring TDK in the club but we needed to overpay to secure him.

And fact is if TDK forms part of a ruck partnership with Marshall and/or Dodson down the line, that performs anything like it did against Carlton most weeks, we hopefully might realise we haven't overpaid in a few years time.

Sycophantic nuffies? Lol. I'd rather look at what's right in front of my face than worrying about things that haven't happened.

List management is literally about planning for the future. If Stavro is saying that the club think we can't afford Wilson due to money being tight, it's a pretty easy conclusion to draw that we have spent too much on a few players. Paying a guy elite money on potential is a huge risk and you are going to wear the consequences if it doesn't pay off.

Of course you'll leak players once you are a good side and things get tight but there is no way we are even close to being able to let players leak out as fast as we can replace them yet.

We probably need to add some value pieces while retaining everything we have and hope that they all hit their potential to even be in top 4 challenge mode. Let alone bridge the gap between us and the top few sides.

Obviously if the TDK move becomes a success it's a success but like you say things that haven't happened yet aren't a solid argument.

 

[thekizzler]

List management is literally about planning for the future. If Stavro is saying that the club think we can't afford Wilson due to money being tight, it's a pretty easy conclusion to draw that we have spent too much on a few players. Paying a guy elite money on potential is a huge risk and you are going to wear the consequences if it doesn't pay off.

Of course you'll leak players once you are a good side and things get tight but there is no way we are even close to being able to let players leak out as fast as we can replace them yet.

We probably need to add some value pieces while retaining everything we have and hope that they all hit their potential to even be in top 4 challenge mode. Let alone bridge the gap between us and the top few sides.

Obviously if the TDK move becomes a success it's a success but like you say things that haven't happened yet aren't a solid argument.

List management is about planning for the future, you're right.

And you are simply going on about something that hasn't happened...way in the future.

You might as well crawl under the bed covers now and start bemoaning your death in 30-40 years time.

Darcy Wilson is a St Kilda player. TDK formed a match-winning partnership with Marshall on the weekend.

These are facts.

If we lose Wilson because we can't afford to match what is paid by another club, or we don't want to pay as much as another club, blaming the TDK deal is such a simple, basic-b*tch argument - which isn't in your usual style as you usually considered.

Maybe it's a coping mechanism?

The sum of a salary cap is huge amounts of moving parts - and these are the facts on the situation and why your argument is currently defunct.

1. Darcy Wilson is a St Kilda player
2. TDK formed a match-winning partnership with Marshall on the weekend
3. TDK can pay his contract back in two ways - being dominant or contributing significantly to a flag and we hope both. We won't know for many years
4. We don't really know how much he is being paid in terms of overall deal, whether front or back ended, triggers etc.

Then there are unanswered questions that probably no one can answer here:

• IF Wilson decides to leave but it isn't for exorbitant amounts of extra money, is that someone you want as part of St Kilda culturally going forwards?
• IF Wilson decides to leave after demanding exorbitant money, you can also ask the question above (which can be asked of Nas too).

Now I'm not questioning Wilson's character or his right to get a payday but they are all reasonable questions to ask in the event.

It's like saying that a missed set shot from 35m out in the first quarter cost you the game in a one-point loss.

A game is a sum of many parts and actions - and singling out any one action is not right - although human nature sees us pick the last thing that happened in a match - which was Daniel Wulf hitting the post from 5 metres out

The salary cap and list management are a similar with all the moving pieces across the journey.

 

[Captain Paddy]

Gotta admire the guys that still maintain Clark is an elite professional that has only had his career derailed by injuries and nothing more

 

[The Punter]

Gotta admire the guys that still maintain Clark is an elite professional that has only had his career derailed by injuries and nothing more

Gotta admire the guys who insert words like "only", "all" and "every" to argue against a contention that was not made due to the actual absence of those words.

A lot of things have multiple causes. My contention that the beginning of Hunter Clark's fitness struggles was when David Mackay turned his jaw into cream cheese remains.

 

[Nutsngum]

Gotta admire the guys that still maintain Clark is an elite professional that has only had his career derailed by injuries and nothing more

I'm glad you admire people willing to apply logical and reasonable assessment of players, acknowledging that player's good traits can often make up for their deficiencies that are continuously exaggerated by people on this board.

 

[gringo2011]

List management is about planning for the future, you're right.

And you are simply going on about something that hasn't happened...way in the future.

You might as well crawl under the bed covers now and start bemoaning your death in 30-40 years time.

Darcy Wilson is a St Kilda player. TDK formed a match-winning partnership with Marshall on the weekend.

These are facts.

If we lose Wilson because we can't afford to match what is paid by another club, or we don't want to pay as much as another club, blaming the TDK deal is such a simple, basic-b*tch argument - which isn't in your usual style as you usually considered.

Maybe it's a coping mechanism?

The sum of a salary cap is huge amounts of moving parts - and these are the facts on the situation and why your argument is currently defunct.

1. Darcy Wilson is a St Kilda player
2. TDK formed a match-winning partnership with Marshall on the weekend
3. TDK can pay his contract back in two ways - being dominant or contributing significantly to a flag and we hope both. We won't know for many years
4. We don't really know how much he is being paid in terms of overall deal, whether front or back ended, triggers etc.

Then there are unanswered questions that probably no one can answer here:

• IF Wilson decides to leave but it isn't for exorbitant amounts of extra money, is that someone you want as part of St Kilda culturally going forwards?
• IF Wilson decides to leave after demanding exorbitant money, you can also ask the question above (which can be asked of Nas too).

Now I'm not questioning Wilson's character or his right to get a payday but they are all reasonable questions to ask in the event.

It's like saying that a missed set shot from 35m out in the first quarter cost you the game in a one-point loss.

A game is a sum of many parts and actions - and singling out any one action is not right - although human nature sees us pick the last thing that happened in a match - which was Daniel Wulf hitting the post from 5 metres out

The salary cap and list management are a similar with all the moving pieces across the journey.

Not sure your argument is in any way deep. You are saying close your eyes and block your ears and just let the universe decide your fate. You are obfuscating to avoid actually coming up with a counter point.

Paying very high wages for a player when you have a limited cap is not the same as missing a goal early in a match. What you do now has consequences in the future with that cap space.

TDK has to play at least close to what his pay packet dictates or he'll come under intense scrutiny. He and his manager would have known that when he signed.

We need to make sure we do everything we can to keep hold of our list and not make more holes. Players have clubs over a barrel right now and we probably should have planned for that to eventuate but were very keen to land a player.

We are struggling to attract players and need to overpay to get them to look. Losing quality players can then only be replaced in the draft which then takes time making you less attractive and keeping the cycle of shitness going.

 

[BrutThough]

Gotta admire the guys that still maintain Clark is an elite professional that has only had his career derailed by injuries and nothing more

Same way many people admire the guys who think they know more about how a player prepares and works behind the scenes then the people offering the contracts

 

[gringo2011]

Gotta admire the guys who insert words like "only", "all" and "every" to argue against a contention that was not made due to the actual absence of those words.

A lot of things have multiple causes. My contention that the beginning of Hunter Clark's fitness struggles was when David Mackay turned his jaw into cream cheese remains.

Clark was always rumoured to not love the AFL lifestyle and was into partying and even sucking back a cigarette or two when he was younger. No judgement, I would have been exactly the same. I was better party boy than sports person so never had to straddle a line.

He was never in the pre season fitness groups that a lot of them did and he's never really progressed his time on ground figures.

That said I think that there is a bit of both. Injury has curtailed his career and he was never given a clean run at it and probably has a naturally less obvious endurance than others.

That injury really started his injury curse though. There were games early on where he looked set to be an absolute gun.

Now he's more a handy fringe player that looks like at some point he'll come under pressure from youth but the coaches seem to want him in whenever he's fit despite some downsides.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[botts]

Isn’t this the same guy who said nas was leaving ?

 

[thekizzler]

Not sure your argument is in any way deep. You are saying close your eyes and block your ears and just let the universe decide your fate. You are obfuscating to avoid actually coming up with a counter point.

Paying very high wages for a player when you have a limited cap is not the same as missing a goal early in a match. What you do now has consequences in the future with that cap space.

TDK has to play at least close to what his pay packet dictates or he'll come under intense scrutiny. He and his manager would have known that when he signed.

We need to make sure we do everything we can to keep hold of our list and not make more holes. Players have clubs over a barrel right now and we probably should have planned for that to eventuate but were very keen to land a player.

We are struggling to attract players and need to overpay to get them to look. Losing quality players can then only be replaced in the draft which then takes time making you less attractive and keeping the cycle of shitness going.

No I'm not lol.

I'm looking at facts and reality - that's the only point I need in this and it trumps all.

A lot of the argument put out there is suggesting things that haven't happened (Wilson leaving/TDK being sh*t).

Which is a prediction or pissing the bed - you can decide which one.

Making predictions is great. Confusing them as fact or reality is amusing to me and that's not going to change.

If someone thinks TDK's deal is going to eventually not work and out and cost us players - that's fine. It's a plausible prediction.

But it isn't a fact or a current reality.

I explained earlier that this isn't directed solely at you, but you seem to have appointed yourself captain of the bedwetters lol.

This started by you stating SOS should be looked at it if Wilson leaves in regards to TDK's deal. I'm sure he will be looked at it for all his work once the moves he has made have resulted in success or not.

If you want to be in the camp that focuses on the negatives of his list management career across two clubs, ignores the positives and judges his list management at the Saints many years before we know if it will be successful or not - that's your right.

But I'm going to chime in every now and then to explain how short-sighted that view is.

Finally, TDK actually does not have to play close to what his pay packet dictates for it to be a success.

Like Tom Boyd at the Doggies, the money will be worth it if he makes a strong contribution to a premiership - even if he plays only at 900k level across the contract.

I want to see him elevate himself higher and higher and I would be pretty surprised if we have seen the best of TDK at St Kilda after eight matches.

 

[gubby88]

still yet to understand why anyone is upset about a contract that no one actually knows anything about???

 

[gringo2011]

No I'm not lol.

I'm looking at facts and reality - that's the only point I need in this and it trumps all.

A lot of the argument put out there is suggesting things that haven't happened (Wilson leaving/TDK being sh*t).

Which is a prediction or pissing the bed - you can decide which one.

Making predictions is great. Confusing them as fact or reality is amusing to me and that's not going to change.

If someone thinks TDK's deal is going to eventually not work and out and cost us players - that's fine. It's a plausible prediction.

But it isn't a fact or a current reality.

I explained earlier that this isn't directed solely at you, but you seem to have appointed yourself captain of the bedwetters lol.

This started by you stating SOS should be looked at it if Wilson leaves in regards to TDK's deal. I'm sure he will be looked at it for all his work once the moves he has made have resulted in success or not.

If you want to be in the camp that focuses on the negatives of his list management career across two clubs, ignores the positives and judges his list management at the Saints many years before we know if it will be successful or not - that's your right.

But I'm going to chime in every now and then to explain how short-sighted that view is.

Finally, TDK actually does not have to play close to what his pay packet dictates for it to be a success.

Like Tom Boyd at the Doggies, the money will be worth it if he makes a strong contribution to a premiership - even if he plays only at 900k level across the contract.

I want to see him elevate himself higher and higher and I would be pretty surprised if we have seen the best of TDK at St Kilda after eight matches.

As a list manager you are judged on building a list to challenge for a flag... at three clubs he's not done that. Even at GWS with more free hits than playing tennis against someone without arms. He also chased rejects from GWS like he did with his Carlton boys.

Tom Boyd was poor list management despite the flag. It gave them something to show for it but it wasn't a good trade.

TDK is going to be judged if he doesn't perform. It's not hard to work that out that equation. If we don't have a enough money to hold our list together before it's achieved anything the list manger will also be judged on that.

Being deluded doesn't make you superior. Your overly positive view point is blinding you to reality of an finite cap and for the first time in ages a lot of players needing to fit inside it.

It's good that players are worth paying now but that magical huge cap space is starting to shrink away fast. We hadn't planned on it by the sound of it. That's negligent.

 

[Hayes4PM]

I mean, the good thing about this is they state "bidding war looms". I'd rather have about 4 clubs interested in him than 1 if he is thinking about leaving. Although I'd be very surprised if he did. We're on the up, his mate Hugo seems to have penciled himself in as our go to stoppage mid for the next 5 - 10 years, why leave now?

 

[thekizzler]

As a list manager you are judged on building a list to challenge for a flag... at three clubs he's not done that. Even at GWS with more free hits than playing tennis against someone without arms. He also chased rejects from GWS like he did with his Carlton boys.

Tom Boyd was poor list management despite the flag. It gave them something to show for it but it wasn't a good trade.

TDK is going to be judged if he doesn't perform. It's not hard to work that out that equation. If we don't have a enough money to hold our list together before it's achieved anything the list manger will also be judged on that.

Being deluded doesn't make you superior. Your overly positive view point is blinding you to reality of an finite cap and for the first time in ages a lot of players needing to fit inside it.

It's good that players are worth paying now but that magical huge cap space is starting to shrink away fast. We hadn't planned on it by the sound of it. That's negligent.

Nope.

Facts aren't delusion.

Prediction and bedwetting are not facts.

This is the distinction that you and others time and time again cannot tell the difference between.

Fact 1: Darcy Wilson is a St Kilda player.

Fact 2: TDK can't be judged on his contract yet

Fact 3: You are pissing your pants about a situation that hasn't happened.

Three indisputable facts. No delusion.

This entire debate I've been providing reason after reason as to why these facts are facts. Some of the reasons more steadfast than others.

This statement below is Gringo in an absolute nutshell.

It's good that players are worth paying now but that magical huge cap space is starting to shrink away fast. We hadn't planned on it by the sound of it. That's negligent.

We don't know the vagaries of the salary cap, but you do? lol. There is an actual delusion.

The salary cap space is shrinking fast. A dart throw. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It matters what Wilson is actually demanding - which we don't know.

We didn't plan on the nature of player movement? Oh really lol. Based on what? Big Footy?

Negligence. Where is the evidence of negligence? Lol. Aside from your delusion, dart throws and ego?

The only negligence would be someone accepting this statement as legitimate lol.

It's pretty simple. You just want to keep p***ing your pants. Maybe it's a coping mechanism because you love the Saints so much?

Fair enough - I'm enjoying the debate and I'm going to point out the piss-stain every now and then.