'05 midfield dynamics

[Mad Dog]

I’ve been pondering the impact of Stinger’s departure on the midfield for next year. We all agree that Thommo is a great prospect and we’re pretty happy with the trade. We know they are completely different players and I think this is going to change the midfield dynamic considerably.
Who is going to be the stopper in the midfield next year?….lets just take draft pickups out of the equation for the moment.
Roo – I doubt it – is far too damaging to be restricted.
McLeod – Don’t want to be harsh but he would be one of the more unaccountable players in our midfield. When he is on fire he is up there with the best – but when he is off…..his lack of accountability seems to be more pronounced.
Thommo – has been recruited as an inside ballgetter.
Goody – not a noted stopper – but probably the closest candidate so far……but I’d hate to see him restricted – after 2 disappointing years I’m looking forward to him streaming out of the middle – running to 55 – and pumping one through.
Reilly – is going to be a good player but not a stopper
Edwards – I can see him spending more time up forward and coming into the midfield as part of the rotations…..but possibly the answer.
Shuback ?
Shirley……….please don’t tell me this guy will get game time just because we need a tagger?
Ladhams – are you serious
Skippy – definitely not a stopper
Mattner - maybe

Every side needs to have 1 or 2 guys to stop the Voss Lappins and Blacks….. – I just can’t see where it is going to come from? Craigy’s way is to back his midfield against the opposition – but that’s not always going to work.
Could it be that McLeod is going to get ********ed off again if asked to do jobs he doesn’t like…..could he spend more time up forward?
Is Goody’s re-emergence going to be tempered by being asked to tag?
Or will Shirley become a permanent fixture?
After having said all this – I don’t believe in having specialist tagging roles – I think you just go head to head – try and get an overlap at the stoppages and put one of your midfielders into space. I believe that when we’ve got the ball we run wide – when they’ve got the ball – we man up…..I just get the feeling that an area where we’ve been not real good in the past (accountability in the midfield) could well be a big problem for next year.
Thoughts / feelings / public ridicule?

 

[86Crow]

Search the board a bit further, theres a post on this already that i started when stinger was traded. Its pretty big and will give you everyones opinion on this topic already. I think it was titled "Filling the Stinger Void"

 

[Stiffy_18]

I think this is Mattner's big chance to step up and become a tagger. Its the only way he will get a game in the side.

Shirley, Mattner, Torney, Begley and even Reilly will be used for tagging roles throughout the year depending on the circumstances.

Shirley is probably the most proven out of that lot as far as tagging goes. Problem is, apart from his tagging he doesn't offer much more flexibility.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I think this is Mattner's big chance to step up and become a tagger. Its the only way he will get a game in the side.

Shirley, Mattner, Torney, Begley and even Reilly will be used for tagging roles throughout the year depending on the circumstances.

Shirley is probably the most proven out of that lot as far as tagging goes. Problem is, apart from his tagging he doesn't offer much more flexibility.

Mattner should not be played as a tagger - we've tried b4 and failed. IMO he is a naturally attacking player.

My money is on Doughty and then Torney.

 

[snakebite01]

Mattner should not be played as a tagger - we've tried b4 and failed. IMO he is a naturally attacking player.

My money is on Doughty and then Torney.

Agreed, Mattner is not and never will be a tagger and playing him in that position will hinder his development.

We will see him flourish when he is given the freedom and space of the wing where he can carry the ball, use his pace and damage teams with his big leg.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Agreed, Mattner is not and never will be a tagger and playing him in that position will hinder his development.

We will see him flourish when he is given the freedom and space of the wing where he can carry the ball, use his pace and damage teams with his big leg.

He appears to be a guy who has not accepted yet that he is up to AFL standard.
Always plays IMO with the thought he is always playing for his spot in the side.

It's amazing how much confidence comes when you do not have that thought in the back of your head.

 

[snakebite01]

He appears to be a guy who has not accepted yet that he is up to AFL standard.
Always plays IMO with the thought he is always playing for his spot in the side.

It's amazing how much confidence comes when you do not have that thought in the back of your head.

I started to see the confidence towards the end of the year. He has always been one to take on the opposition but it started to actually work for him and I think under Craig we saw a bit more free footy from Mattner. IIRC he had a couple of 15-20 disposal games towards the end of the year where he looked good and started to believe in his ability.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I started to see the confidence towards the end of the year. He has always been one to take on the opposition but it started to actually work for him and I think under Craig we saw a bit more free footy from Mattner. IIRC he had a couple of 20+ disposal games towards the end of the year where he looked good and started to believe in his ability.

Hopefully he continues to grow and develop next season. I couldn't put up with Stiffys ridicule if he failed

 

[Stiffy_18]

My money is on Doughty and then Torney.

God help us.

He doesn't know the meaning of sticking to his man. I suggest you look at some of the tapes from this year and see how inept he was in stopping his opponent.

Doughty is not a quality tagger and doesn't have the required "ingridients" to be one.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Hopefully he continues to grow and develop next season. I couldn't put up with Stiffys ridicule if he failed

I hope he proves me wrong

He is a solid player but if we think he will be good enough to be in the premiership side then we are mistaken.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

God help us.

He doesn't know the meaning of sticking to his man. I suggest you look at some of the tapes from this year and see how inept he was in stopping his opponent.

Doughty is not a quality tagger and doesn't have the required "ingridients" to be one.

Then whose idea was it to play him off a HBF - seems a poor decision by Craig if he doesn;t know where his man is

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I hope he proves me wrong

He is a solid player but if we think he will be good enough to be in the premiership side then we are mistaken.

From the man who said Rutten should be delisted

 

[snakebite01]

I hope he proves me wrong

He is a solid player but if we think he will be good enough to be in the premiership side then we are mistaken.

He is only 22 and has played just 30 odd games. All of our young players progress has been slowed by Ayres attempts to top up and win a premiership with an older group. Not many players have made a significant mark on AFL footy after just 30 games, but Mattner has the ability to if given an opportunity. He is fast, has a big leg, is hard at the footy and the man and is an excellent tackler. His skills are adequate and will improve given more experience and exposure to the pace and pressure AFL footy. Provided the commitment is there, there is no reason why he can't make it.

 

[snakebite01]

I hope he proves me wrong

He is a solid player but if we think he will be good enough to be in the premiership side then we are mistaken.

He is only 22 and has played just 30 odd games. All of our young players progress has been slowed by Ayres attempts to top up and win a premiership with an older group. Not many players have made a significant mark on AFL footy after just 30 games, but Mattner has the ability to if given an opportunity. He is fast, has a big leg, is hard at the footy and the man and is an excellent tackler. His skills are adequate and will improve given more experience and exposure to the pace and pressure of AFL footy. Provided the commitment is there, there is no reason why he can't make it.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Then whose idea was it to play him off a HBF - seems a poor decision by Craig if he doesn;t know where his man is

With all due respects I don't think Craig's idea of HB flanker is accountability. Wasn't it you that was saying every week that we run forward of the ball and pay no respect to our opponents. Doughty's defensive game is very average and as such I don't think he would make a good tagger.

Tell me would you be confident giving Doughty the job of tagging Hird, Buckley, Voss, Black, James, Judd etc....??????? I know I wouldn't. In fact I can see him getting smashed by every one of those players.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Tell me would you be confident giving Doughty the job of tagging Hird, Buckley, Voss, Black, James, Judd etc....??????? I know I wouldn't. In fact I can see him getting smashed by every one of those players.

No but nor would I be comfortable with Shirley on those players.
So who would you play on them.


BTW the worse player for accountability in our side is Roo

 

[snakebite01]

With all due respects I don't think Craig's idea of HB flanker is accountability. Wasn't it you that was saying every week that we run forward of the ball and pay no respect to our opponents. Doughty's defensive game is very average and as such I don't think he would make a good tagger.

Tell me would you be confident giving Doughty the job of tagging Hird, Buckley, Voss, Black, James, Judd etc....??????? I know I wouldn't. In fact I can see him getting smashed by every one of those players.

Doughty certainly isn't defensively minded. His attacking performance from the HBF this year against Freo before he got injured was brilliant, his defensive performance on Shaun McManus was poor. It just depends on what's more important out of a half-back flanker, run and drive or tight-checking and accountability. A good HBF needs to find the right medium between the two.

 

[Stiffy_18]

From the man who said Rutten should be delisted

Hang on a minute, you joined BF in November 2003. If anything I have been a bit of a Rutten fan ever since he got rookie listed. I have said that he would need to improve his pace and agility if he wants to play AFL footy and that it was a pitty he is lacking in those because he has everything else. I have also praised him as having the quickest hands on our list and felt that if he could improve his agility and pace that he could be a very good AFL player.

Thankfully, he has improved in those and as such has been able to cement his place in the side. Big difference between saying that I wanted to delist him and pointing out his deficiencies. I said IF he didn't improve those aspects of his game he will be delisted. Check you facts first

 

[Stiffy_18]

No but nor would I be comfortable with Shirley on those players.
So who would you play on them.


BTW the worse player for accountability in our side is Roo

I would be comfortable with Shirley on them because Shirley has stood the likes od Buckley, Judd, Cousins etc and has beaten them. I would be FAR more comfortable with Shirley on them than Doughty. At least Shirley has the toughness, concentration and determination to stick to his man. The only problem I have noted with Shirley is that he runs out of puff in the second half when he is thrown on a good aerobic runner and he does need to bulk up a bit more. Shirley would do a much better tagging job than Doughty.

You won't get an argument from me regarding Roo's accountability

 

[Stiffy_18]

Doughty certainly isn't defensively minded. His attacking performance from the HBF this year against Freo before he got injured was brilliant, his defensive performance on Shaun McManus was poor. It just depends on what's more important out of a half-back flanker, run and drive or tight-checking and accountability.

Correct and one of many reasons why Doughty would be a crap tagger. His best position is wing where he has played his best footy (see 2002). He is a strong overhead for his size and carries the ball well. He was used as a linkman in 2002 and I thougth he was exceptional. He has gone downhill since then. I would dearly love the Doughty of 2002. He wasn't afraid to put his body on the line and his ball carrying ability and good delivery skills were very impressive.

A good HBF needs to find the right medium between the two.

Exactly right and even at 25/26 Doughty is yet to find it. Reilly found it in the first game he played on HB. He kept Davey very quiet and racked up 30 touches himself. He has never been really beaten by his opponent as a HBF and yet continued to rack up possesions himself and set up a lot of attacking moves. Doughty on the other hand has been beaten more often than not as a HBF. Sure he looks great with the ball in his hands but his opponent has always hurt us. Another one that absolutely killed him was Pickett.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Thankfully, he has improved in those and as such has been able to cement his place in the side. Big difference between saying that I wanted to delist him and pointing out his deficiencies. I said IF he didn't improve those aspects of his game he will be delisted. Check you facts first

No -one can improve pace and agility in 2/3rds of a season. So either someones assessment was wrong or the kid compensated with his footy nouse.

Fact is there's still a huge question mark on him because agility - well I don't know if he can improve that very much.

Its amazing how all the people bagging the s... out of him have suddenly become his supporters.

 

[Stiffy_18]

No -one can improve pace and agility in 2/3rds of a season. So either someones assessment was wrong or the kid compensated with his footy nouse.

Fact is there's still a huge question mark on him because agility - well I don't know if he can improve that very much.

Its amazing how all the people bagging the s... out of him have suddenly become his supporters.

OK he has been working over the pre-season on his pace and his agility and even during his rehab from injury he was working on it. It wasn't over 2/3rds of the season it was over a longer period of time.

Funny how Neil Craig reckons that Rutten has improved those aspects of his game and is doing more excersises now in order to improve it further. He will bever become a Scarlett in terms of agility but if he improves it to the level that is acceptable then he will be a very good player for us

Its amazing how all the people bagging the s... out of him have suddenly become his supporters

Nice little dig there. I am pretty sure you are smart enough to use the search function to find what I said about Rutten. I have been singing his praises well before you even joined BF. I don't appreacite being called a liar

 

[macca23]

Mattner should not be played as a tagger - we've tried b4 and failed. IMO he is a naturally attacking player.

My money is on Doughty and then Torney.

Correct re Mattner. He's a good tagger as a wingman, but not when he's playing the run with role. He's been carved when tried that way.

Shirley is the best we've got for that role to date, but I think you might well be right with the suggestion of Doughty. Both of these guys are in the top aerobic bracket in our squad. Torney could do cameo stints, but would run out of puff if played there all game IMO.

I can't see any others suitable for that role, so the sensible thing would be all out attack from the mid-field guns such as Roo, Macca, Edwards, Goodwin plus Thompson, with Shirley and Doughty doing the run with roles.

 

[RooDog]

im just going to single out Doughty because he has been the player that has been highly discussed in this thread.

as said he wouldnt make a top 8 team, he may be there as a depth player and there lies our problem. we dont want players that are depth players as one who would be in our first 22, that is our biggest players, we have a top tier then a tier of players that are good depth players and nothing more but these blokes are in our best team he is suppose to be an attacking player as stated not a defensive one but he only had two games where he got 20 possesions, didnt have any higher than that and he played 18 of the 22 games. He is 25 and isnt the type of player we need in our starting 18, in my mind he probably shouldve been delisted. The bigger problem is craig likes blokes like him, bock and skipworth who arent AFL standard and plans to keep them in the team because they are his project players. NEIL WE WILL NEVER WIN A PREMIERSHIP WITH THEM IN OUR TEAM

 

[Fudd]

im just going to single out Doughty because he has been the player that has been highly discussed in this thread.

as said he wouldnt make a top 8 team, he may be there as a depth player and there lies our problem. we dont want players that are depth players as one who would be in our first 22, that is our biggest players, we have a top tier then a tier of players that are good depth players and nothing more but these blokes are in our best team he is suppose to be an attacking player as stated not a defensive one but he only had two games where he got 20 possesions, didnt have any higher than that and he played 18 of the 22 games. He is 25 and isnt the type of player we need in our starting 18, in my mind he probably shouldve been delisted. The bigger problem is craig likes blokes like him, bock and skipworth who arent AFL standard and plans to keep them in the team because they are his project players. NEIL WE WILL NEVER WIN A PREMIERSHIP WITH THEM IN OUR TEAM

I think people need to realise in the case of Bock, that he hasnt been delisited because hes just had his first season of senior football and there is alot of improvement left in him. Admitedley im one of the few who actualy thought he was alright this year, and i think he can really improve into a good player. Remember Ken Mcgregor in his first few years, nobody rated him and im sure alot of people wanted to flick him. Personally i dont think Bocks form actually warranted the number of games he got but he did enough in his first year of AFL footy for me.
I think a better assessment of Bock can be made after next season.
As for Skipworth, i was ready to wave him goodbye after a few unproductive years, but his last month and a half of footy was pretty good i thought. definitiely worth another go if he can produce that consistantly.