Roast 2012 Fixture issues...All Discussion Here

[tiggywigs]

lol at the risk of being accused of making this about me i will answer.

1/ on game day i barrack just as hard as the next bloke even duds are defended so yes i do cheer goals.i will say though those duds do cop some abuse as well when they cost us.

2/ very rarely im not into song singing.

3/ not relevant im happy to post on here win lose or draw.

4/ when we actually play well yes.but that is down to opinion isnt it. ive seen us lose and thought sheesh we went okay come on here and chuckled at the abuse.
ive also seen us win in many deplorablee games and come on here and chuckled at all the platitudes being bandied about.

5/ all i can say to that one is what a silly question. we all hang around for just one thing and thats a premiership in our lifetime hopefully.
i will say though if you asked if i could remain critical of premiership players the answer would be yes. many ordinary players are fortunate enough to play in a gf. its these players you need to improve on if you want to stay up.

6/ i dont consider myself to be either i think im a realist. i dont just look thru one black eye and one yellow eye.its a shame many others cant do this when discussing our club.

7/ all things being equal i have already stated lots of times that i think we are a bottom 4 or 6 side this yr.
i have always given my reasons for this.
the lack of quality, the lack of genuine depth, the lack of experienced players with just 5 who have 100 games or more, and almost to a man they are battlers.
with just another 8 or so players with 50 games or more.
the fact that most of our better players are in the u22 age bracket and we are relieing more on potential than proven players.

also not ignoring the fact that all other teams have young players as well and those teams too will be looking for improvement from them. i dont really need to look at the draw i think these things will be big enough hurdles by themselves to make dramatic improvement this yr.
its not the draw that will determine where we finish but the actual ability to win.

i find it interesting that people on here think we will beat gc and pa and that those games will be montys. yet both sides made us look silly this yr.surely these games are nothing more than 50/50 games based purely on head to head performances.in fact throw in experience games played potential upside quality and depth and id say gc have it over us.
imo there is only one easy game this yr if you like and that is against the new boys. why well games played experience enough ready to go players or depth its the same for all clubs you apply the same principals to all.

Yes, we have a lack of depth and experience which may be our achilles heal if injuries and form problems emerge early. But I cannot agree that we lack quality or that our 100+ gamers are all "battlers" (if I have understood you correctly). Newman, Lids and Foley are far from such and the value of Tuck was pretty conclusively demonstrated last year (as I think you have argued yourself).

When you add Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt and Vickery to that list, all proven pressure players of quality, and look at the likely continued emergence of Rance, Batchelor, Conca and one or two others, it seems to be that we have a reasonably solid core of quality - arguably as good as any outside the top six teams last year.

Given the tough start the draw gives us, the question I have is whether the new recruits (especially Maric and Morris and to a lesser extent the draftees) and the existing support players are able to provide the extra momentum that a young team needs to be truly competitive.

Yes, we are relying on realised potential, but given the substantial improvement from players such as Vickery and Rance last year and what this bodes for our list development overall, I don't have such a glum view of our prospects. Looking at the draw, I'd rate us a 50/50 chance of making the eight.

 

[santa claws]

Yes, we have a lack of depth and experience which may be our achilles heal if injuries and form problems emerge early. But I cannot agree that we lack quality or that our 100+ gamers are all "battlers" (if I have understood you correctly). Newman, Lids and Foley are far from such and the value of Tuck was pretty conclusively demonstrated last year (as I think you have argued yourself).

When you add Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt and Vickery to that list, all proven pressure players of quality, and look at the likely continued emergence of Rance, Batchelor, Conca and one or two others, it seems to be that we have a reasonably solid core of quality - arguably as good as any outside the top six teams last year.

Given the tough start the draw gives us, the question I have is whether the new recruits (especially Maric and Morris and to a lesser extent the draftees) and the existing support players are able to provide the extra momentum that a young team needs to be truly competitive.

Yes, we are relying on realised potential, but given the substantial improvement from players such as Vickery and Rance last year and what this bodes for our list development overall, I don't have such a glum view of our prospects. Looking at the draw, I'd rate us a 50/50 chance of making the eight.

fair enough about the 100 gamers but miller and tuck have had their issues and could be termed battlers. newman and foley are nothing more than decent players we have got little out of foley the past 3 yrs due to various issues. deledio well hes quality hes the only 100 plus gamer that we have who is.
we have just 5 100 gamers and only about 8 50plus gamers.our trouble is most of those who are heading toward 100 games are ordinary players like jackson white thursfield king mcguane edwards morton moore. grigg has issues as does nahas and maric at 26 has achieved what to date.wheres the quality we are forced to wait for the kids to get there if they get there. those mentioned are supposed to lead the way they are our mature core and they are mostly ordinary.

we gain maric with 77 games but lose morton and thursfield with a similar amount. we gain someone who has battled to establish himself for the loss of two in a similar boat.

looking at most sides who have got near top 4 they have an abundance of decent mature players who have played 100 plus games.
collingwood on gf day last yr had about 18 100 plus gamers to choose from. and 5 50 plus gamers.
make no mistake the age gap holes in the list thus experience are still being heavily felt.

 

[tiggywigs]

fair enough about the 100 gamers but miller and tuck have had their issues and could be termed battlers. newman and foley are nothing more than decent players we have got little out of foley the past 3 yrs due to various issues. deledio well hes quality hes the only 100 plus gamer that we have who is.
we have just 5 100 gamers and only about 8 50plus gamers.our trouble is most of those who are heading toward 100 games are ordinary players like jackson white thursfield king mcguane edwards morton moore. grigg has issues as does nahas and maric at 26 has achieved what to date.wheres the quality we are forced to wait for the kids to get there if they get there. those mentioned are supposed to lead the way they are our mature core and they are mostly ordinary.

we gain maric with 77 games but lose morton and thursfield with a similar amount. we gain someone who has battled to establish himself for the loss of two in a similar boat.

looking at most sides who have got near top 4 they have an abundance of decent mature players who have played 100 plus games.
collingwood on gf day last yr had about 18 100 plus gamers to choose from. and 5 50 plus gamers.
make no mistake the age gap holes in the list thus experience are still being heavily felt.

I think we agree that the lack of 'battle hardness' is a big issue which may well tell against our team in the short term. The question that we appear to differ on is the amount of talent in the team, something we discussed a little while back. As I said then, our ratio of stars to dependables is quite healthy while the ratio of stars/dependables to expendables/projects is worrying for depth reasons (but there are signs of rapid list improvement).

Given the draw which provides a tough start but then a real chance to make up ground, what I think is crucial is the ability of the coaching staff (not just Dimma) to keep building the playing group's confidence in the game plan and their own abilities. If, and I admit it's a big if, the team shows a fair degree of fight in the first four rounds, them I'm betting the resulting enthusiasm will go a long way to nullifying the experience problem we have.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Problem with the first five weeks is it will potentially kill any chance the club has to making a claim that we are having any sustained improvement.

If we are 1-4 or 0-5, the media will be baying for Hardwicks blood, deeming Cotch/Jack/Martin overhyped failures who cannot deliver upon their potential, and the March/Gale administration another chapter in the ongoing epic of failure.

The club will bunker down and try to push through, but it will make the job for the membership team a massive one. Rather than sourcing new members, it will be about retaining them. Rather than promoting the club, Gale will be having to defend himself and the team constantly against the usual stirrers in Hutchy, Barrett, and Caro.

It will also potential put a shadow of doubt into a few of our marquee players who may start to think its another false dawn at RFC, and GWS at least gives them a pay cheque.

Even if we get some wins in the back half of the season, it will be for nothing. Just look at the supporter forums and media this year. Yes we gained more wins this year, but only at the junk part of the season when winning doesn't matter.

 

[Filthy Sanchez]

Problem with the first five weeks is it will potentially kill any chance the club has to making a claim that we are having any sustained improvement.

If we are 1-4 or 0-5, the media will be baying for Hardwicks blood, deeming Cotch/Jack/Martin overhyped failures who cannot deliver upon their potential, and the March/Gale administration another chapter in the ongoing epic of failure.

The club will bunker down and try to push through, but it will make the job for the membership team a massive one. Rather than sourcing new members, it will be about retaining them. Rather than promoting the club, Gale will be having to defend himself and the team constantly against the usual stirrers in Hutchy, Barrett, and Caro.

It will also potential put a shadow of doubt into a few of our marquee players who may start to think its another false dawn at RFC, and GWS at least gives them a pay cheque.

Even if we get some wins in the back half of the season, it will be for nothing. Just look at the supporter forums and media this year. Yes we gained more wins this year, but only at the junk part of the season when winning doesn't matter.

Woah, just chill out and stop being so paranoid.

In the likely occurrence that we go 1-5 I doubt it will be then end of RFC like you are predicting. Our only worry is if we get absolutely smashed by all these teams. If we can show some good signs like we did in stages against Carlton (Round 1 ofcourse ) and Collingwood in 1 or 2 of those big matches then the media won't be getting on our backs. I'm sure come Round 5 there will be much bigger stories in the football world than OMG RICHMOND LOST TO COLLINGWOOD AND GEELONG SEASON OVER!!!!!!

As I said earlier, it's good to have blockbusters earlier, it's great that every year the first game in Melbourne so the entire football world can see our players and we can draw big attendances and boost memberships early for better seats to these games.

Our real concern should be against Port Adelaide in Round 6. If we lose to them over at AAMI then (rightly so) the media will be on our backs. Quite frankly if we lose to Port or lose a game by 80 points+ we don't deserve to make finals and I think all of you would agree with that.

We really should be looking at the opening 5 rounds as an opportunity rather than a death trap set by the AFL.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Woah, just chill out and stop being so paranoid.

In the likely occurrence that we go 1-5 I doubt it will be then end of RFC like you are predicting. Our only worry is if we get absolutely smashed by all these teams. If we can show some good signs like we did in stages against Carlton (Round 1 ofcourse ) and Collingwood in 1 or 2 of those big matches then the media won't be getting on our backs. I'm sure come Round 5 there will be much bigger stories in the football world than OMG RICHMOND LOST TO COLLINGWOOD AND GEELONG SEASON OVER!!!!!!

As I said earlier, it's good to have blockbusters earlier, it's great that every year the first game in Melbourne so the entire football world can see our players and we can draw big attendances and boost memberships early for better seats to these games.

Our real concern should be against Port Adelaide in Round 6. If we lose to them over at AAMI then (rightly so) the media will be on our backs. Quite frankly if we lose to Port or lose a game by 80 points+ we don't deserve to make finals and I think all of you would agree with that.

We really should be looking at the opening 5 rounds as an opportunity rather than a death trap set by the AFL.

have a look at the coaches coming out of contract next year, not many likly to be under the gun. Only one is Primus, but Port lack the cash or the list to seriously look at upgrading yet.

If we are 1-4, Dimma will be under the gun very much because there will be no-one else the media is able to train its gun on.

I don't think it will be the end of the club as you said I do, but I think the club will a best tread water if we start 1-5.

Also given the form of the Pies, Cats, and Blues, anything less that a 10 goal defeat will be a bonus. The three sides are that far ahead of us right now. My worry is we know the Pies and Cats are capable of doubling that against us

 

[tiggywigs]

Long way to go before the start of the season. But I'm guessing that Dimma will be selling it to the players as the mini 'finals series' we didn't have this year. The chance to find out just how well we can go against the best.

Sure, it could go pear shaped, but there are some real signs of self-belief and talent emerging in our team. As others have said, maybe it's better to face a big challenge straight up when we are fresh given that we are a young side. And what if they win one of those games?

 

[tigerdan]

have a look at the coaches coming out of contract next year, not many likly to be under the gun. Only one is Primus, but Port lack the cash or the list to seriously look at upgrading yet.

If we are 1-4, Dimma will be under the gun very much because there will be no-one else the media is able to train its gun on.

I don't think it will be the end of the club as you said I do, but I think the club will a best tread water if we start 1-5.

Also given the form of the Pies, Cats, and Blues, anything less that a 10 goal defeat will be a bonus. The three sides are that far ahead of us right now. My worry is we know the Pies and Cats are capable of doubling that against us

Sorry mate but I think you are getting ahead of yourself a bit.

you're suggesting that at round 5 the media will be looking to get a coach sacked? Way too early for that, and I dare say all the attention will be on the shelackings that the Giants (and Suns probably) are getting.

The only crap thing about our draw is we might take a hit in membership if we go 1-4 (say). But think of the flip side. If we beat Carlton there will be huge interest in the Collingwood game and we'll probably get more members sign up on the back of that. Anyway, the rest of our draw is good, and better to get the hard games out of the way early than have them at the end like we did in 94.

Honestly, some people think that unless we play the bottom 8 in our first 7 games we may as well just give up, or that we have been shafted by the AFL.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Sorry mate but I think you are getting ahead of yourself a bit.

you're suggesting that at round 5 the media will be looking to get a coach sacked? Way too early for that, and I dare say all the attention will be on the shelackings that the Giants (and Suns probably) are getting.

The only crap thing about our draw is we might take a hit in membership if we go 1-4 (say). But think of the flip side. If we beat Carlton there will be huge interest in the Collingwood game and we'll probably get more members sign up on the back of that. Anyway, the rest of our draw is good, and better to get the hard games out of the way early than have them at the end like we did in 94.

Honestly, some people think that unless we play the bottom 8 in our first 7 games we may as well just give up, or that we have been shafted by the AFL.

Absolutely I'm suggesting by round 5 they will be calling coaches as likely to be chopped. Articles were being written on Eade, Bailey, and Craig before the season even started. They are desperate to be the first one to call it, which means the calls are being made earlier and earlier. Get ready for lots of articles about the feral unrest at Tigerland brewing up again if we are 1-4. Nothing to do with being right or wrong, it's about being first to get a scalp.

 

[Filthy Sanchez]

So what if there's an article about Dimma? The only reason why there was talk about Eade before the season started was because Smorgon said anything less than a grand final would be a failure.

The media works in roundabouts and a win against Port in round 6 will give us a bit of time to compose ourselves before a very important run of games.

I'm predicting the media will build up Richmond's season in the correct light. Considerable improvement and Finals a must for Hardwick to stay on as coach. This would be pretty fair since IIRC the Gale administration set out for a finals birth by 2012.

There's much more to the footy media than coach watching. As I said earlier, I'm sure there will be bigger issues than Richmond losing to top 4 teams. I'm surprised that you think under 10 goals is a bonus. If we're going to be a top eight team we have to think like a top eight team. Any team in the top eight shouldn't lose to anyone by more than ten goals. All people will be looking for is some excitement from Riewoldt and Martin against the best and the media will leave us alone. Earlier this year (I think it was Llyon) said the only club who wouldn't trade their best two midfielders for Swan and Pendlebury would be Richmond with Martin and Cotchin. We're still very much the "glamour team" with the media, they were absolutely loving us during our good patch and I'm sure they will again same time 2012 when we get a few easy games.

If we spend another year waiting on "potential" I think people have a right to start getting a little impatient.

The bottom line is that if Richmond get put in the media spotlight next year, I'm sure it will be deserved, hopefully it's for all the right reasons.

 

[_RT_]

All this talk about Dimma being under pressure isn't going to happen as the club is already moving to extend his contract. This will remove any heat from the situation and he can simply focus on getting the best out of the list.

 

[partycorolla]

lol at the risk of being accused of making this about me i will answer.

1/ on game day i barrack just as hard as the next bloke even duds are defended so yes i do cheer goals.i will say though those duds do cop some abuse as well when they cost us.

2/ very rarely im not into song singing.

3/ not relevant im happy to post on here win lose or draw.

4/ when we actually play well yes.but that is down to opinion isnt it. ive seen us lose and thought sheesh we went okay come on here and chuckled at the abuse.
ive also seen us win in many deplorablee games and come on here and chuckled at all the platitudes being bandied about.

5/ all i can say to that one is what a silly question. we all hang around for just one thing and thats a premiership in our lifetime hopefully.
i will say though if you asked if i could remain critical of premiership players the answer would be yes. many ordinary players are fortunate enough to play in a gf. its these players you need to improve on if you want to stay up.

6/ i dont consider myself to be either i think im a realist. i dont just look thru one black eye and one yellow eye.its a shame many others cant do this when discussing our club.

7/ all things being equal i have already stated lots of times that i think we are a bottom 4 or 6 side this yr.
i have always given my reasons for this.
the lack of quality, the lack of genuine depth, the lack of experienced players with just 5 who have 100 games or more, and almost to a man they are battlers.
with just another 8 or so players with 50 games or more.
the fact that most of our better players are in the u22 age bracket and we are relieing more on potential than proven players.

also not ignoring the fact that all other teams have young players as well and those teams too will be looking for improvement from them. i dont really need to look at the draw i think these things will be big enough hurdles by themselves to make dramatic improvement this yr.
its not the draw that will determine where we finish but the actual ability to win.

i find it interesting that people on here think we will beat gc and pa and that those games will be montys. yet both sides made us look silly this yr.surely these games are nothing more than 50/50 games based purely on head to head performances.in fact throw in experience games played potential upside quality and depth and id say gc have it over us.
imo there is only one easy game this yr if you like and that is against the new boys. why well games played experience enough ready to go players or depth its the same for all clubs you apply the same principals to all.

Thanks for answering Santa. It sometimes (often) comes across that you view the whole RFC situation as hopeless and that you refuse to see the positives in things. Hence I wanted clarification.

It's interesting to talk about being 'a realist'. I consider myself to be a realist as well though I often have different view points to you. I thought we were just ok this year, dropped some games we should have won and won games I thought we would probably have lost but I felt we did improve and that we will probably improve in 2012.

Best case scenario I see for us is 13-9 (everything going absolutely brilliantly), I probably expect us to go 8 - 14, 9 - 13, 10 - 12 sort of range. The effect of the first month or so could be telling. I think the learning will improve, game style and playing list while 2013 will be a better chance of finals like improvement.

 

[maceman]

Typical... Melbourne gets to play GWS twice next year, following this year being able to play GC twice.

Are they the whores of the AFL? Seriously, if that club cant finish in the top 8 next year, the AFL has a responsibility to shut the club down.

We look like getting Port twice this year... we have a reponsibility to win both games to ensure that draft pick is better for us next year.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...r-western-sydney/story-e6frf9jf-1226175679244

We'll be bitch slapped like we always are.

I'm pleased we didn't lose to the GC twice this year. Once was enough!

 

[tunksy]

All this talk about Dimma being under pressure isn't going to happen as the club is already moving to extend his contract. This will remove any heat from the situation and he can simply focus on getting the best out of the list.

I hope you're right. I think we would be doing dimma an injustice if we sack him because we didnt make finals next year.

think he has us goin in the right directiona dn everytime there is an issue he does his best to fix it asap.

spread of goalkickers, fixed
communication and defensive play, he went out and got someone who knows what hes trying to do and that hes worked with before.

we really are waiting for the youngsters to improve before we can move forawrd. I think martin will shine in his 3rd year. cotchin will become more consistent and dids will lift now there is competition for the best player.

 

[Filthy Sanchez]

Honestly, if Richmond weren't to make finals I think we would need to miss out by only a game or two to warrant re-signing Hardwick.

When you think about it Hardwick's not that different from Obama. Inheriting absolutely terrible conditions and having to make it work. But it's starting to get to the point where results need to occur for his time to be considered a success.

In my opinion Richmond's strength of core young players is setting itself up for a very good oppurtunity at a finals spot. My complaint with Hardwick is that while he has improved youngsters like Rance and Vickery the development of senior players has been pretty poor. White, Edwards and Jackson haven't really improved at all since Wallace.I guess Edwards was good for parts in 10 but that's it.

Personally it seems a bit silly to give a contract extension if there hasn't been any substantial team improvement in three years. For example going from 15th to 11th in 3 years probably wouldn't cut it for me.

FWIW I think Obama will be re-elected and Hardwick re-signed

 

[santa claws]

have long argued that in most cases players do not significantly improve their deficincies after a certain point.
if you draft a deplorable kick at 18 he is likeley to be a terrible kick at 24.
i would argue white jackson edwards skillset cannot be improved especially when under pressure.

one could argue that these types can be role players or players who have specific jobs to do but that is all they will ever be weather thats at richmond or at geelong.

 

[Danog]

have long argued that in most cases players do not significantly improve their deficincies after a certain point.
if you draft a deplorable kick at 18 he is likeley to be a terrible kick at 24.
i would argue white jackson edwards skillset cannot be improved especially when under pressure.

one could argue that these types can be role players or players who have specific jobs to do but that is all they will ever be weather thats at richmond or at geelong.

And Rance's kicking this year?

 

[santa claws]

And Rance's kicking this year?

alexs kicking and judgement/decision making remain in question. and now i know all the stat gurus will throw up stats in his defence.

if you read the post properly i did say in MOST cases players do not significantly improve after a certain point. you will get the odd exception of course nothing in this caper is written in stone. but they are the exception rather than the rule. At age 22 rance will not improve his kicking significantly theres a bigger chance that it will regress.
some players whith poor skills remain on a list because they can perform a critical role.

i look at players like clinton jones who is a very smart footballer can find heaps of ball is invaluable as a run with player but is a terrible kick over distance.
bad kick or not id take him in a heart beat over jackson edwards white because he nearly always makes the right choices when useing the ball and he nearly always operates within his limitations.its not often that he puts himself in the situation where his limitations hurt his side.if your going to have a limitation you had better over come it with other attributes and smarts.

 

[Danog]

alexs kicking and judgement/decision making remain in question. and now i know all the stat gurus will throw up stats in his defence.

if you read the post properly i did say in MOST cases players do not significantly improve after a certain point. you will get the odd exception of course nothing in this caper is written in stone. but they are the exception rather than the rule. At age 22 rance will not improve his kicking significantly theres a bigger chance that it will regress.
some players whith poor skills remain on a list because they can perform a critical role.

i look at players like clinton jones who is a very smart footballer can find heaps of ball is invaluable as a run with player but is a terrible kick over distance.
bad kick or not id take him in a heart beat over jackson edwards white because he nearly always makes the right choices when useing the ball and he nearly always operates within his limitations.its not often that he puts himself in the situation where his limitations hurt his side.if your going to have a limitation you had better over come it with other attributes and smarts.

Bullshit. It has nothing to do with stats. His kicking and decision making improved out of sight this year.

 

[Punt_Road_Roar]

Sorry if its already been posted here but found this article

http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/afl/ten-of-first-11-at-mcg-as-richmond-given-kind-card-in-fixture/story-e6frg21u-1226180008134

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

Is anybody overly optimistic with our 2012?

Imagine this: we come out next year and go 3-2 of our first 5, lets say against Carlton, Melbourne and West Coast. We could be announcing ourselves in a huge way, the members would pour in, and with a relatively kind draw for the rest of the year, we would be absolutely in the box seat for a finals finish.

Its about time the tide turned for this club in starting out seasons so bad. There's no huge reason to suspect we'll be a great side next year, but amazing things happen in footy. Just look at West Coast last year!! I'm going to dare to dream that we get off to a great start and set up a landmark year for the club.

 

[XsaintsfanzX]

why does gws have about 4 home ground like blacktown skoda stadium Manuka and anz stadium.....

 

[flaps]

why does gws have about 4 home ground like blacktown skoda stadium Manuka and anz stadium.....

Because they are exactly that.....GREATER WESTERN Sydney. They are playing 4 games each year for 10 years at Manuka, ANZ will be for higher crowds, and Blacktown is Skoda Stadium isn't it?

 

[XsaintsfanzX]

Because they are exactly that.....GREATER WESTERN Sydney. They are playing 4 games each year for 10 years at Manuka, ANZ will be for higher crowds, and Blacktown is Skoda Stadium isn't it?

but still you dont need about 4 home ground you should have 1 or two

_____________________
STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY

 

[_RT_]

Go and ask the Giants fans why they have 4 home grounds. This is the Tigers board, we don't really give a damn about what they do.