AUKUS

[Saint]

I'm not sure what good 8 subs will do. 100's of Planes and ships would be better defence and much cheaper.

Planes (F-35s) are about 10-15x the cost of a submarine (Virginia Class). So you're talking about ~100 planes.

Submarines have more range, harder to detect, can basically operate anywhere in the world without support, more firepower (10x more missiles).

HMAS Adelaide cost more than half of the cost of a Virginia Class Submarine.

 

[Kwality]

So Australians have to use $400 billion submarines to sink Chinese cargo ships and oil tankers in the Southern Ocean and kill thousands of Chinese sailors for what? To keep white people on top?

More like the deterrent value of that cost should China wish to go down that path.
Take note that the last use of the atom bomb was in 1945, deterrence is the main reason why.

The white people & AUKUS ? You must live a very sheltered life.

Note that you have made that claim above - if that was my opinion you would have been able to quote it. You didnt/you cant.

 

[Power Raid]

How does a country invade its own country?

check out the definition of a civil war

and perhaps read about the war in china between the reds and the koumintang

 

[Kwality]

Really that's just crap and you know it, I expect a bit better from you. Here are few of the components, I'm sure I've missed something.

8 Aukus Subs
3-5 'old' Virgins
Building the sub construction facility in SA
Investing in STEM training to produce technicians and engineers to support the program
Training and recruitment of crew
Upgrading HMAS Sterling significantly
Collins LOTE
Nuclear disposal facility - luckily SA is the only place in Oz that deserves it,
Set of steak knives

The fact that the PRC are going so hard at tryng to stop it through the IAEC, stirring up diplomatic issues with neighbours and raising the risks of nuclear weapons proliferation tells me it's a genuinely good idea that brings strategic concerns for the PLA.

Mind you, the PRC claims about nuclear proliferation are very hypocritical given they gave nuclear secrets to Pakistan to build their bomb, which then helped NK develop it's own nuclear weapons. The worst proliferator of actual nuclear weapons has been the PRC, remember that when you see PRC diplomats putting on concerned faces discussing the risk of nuclear proliferation from AUKUS.

HMAS Stirling & its in the electorate of the WA Premier.

 

[Gough]

This has a bit of WMD in Iraq feel about it only with China as the bad guy this time. Surely they wouldn't lie to us all again?

 

[Schneebly11]

More like the deterrent value of that cost should China wish to go down that path.

China goes down the path of buying oil, gas and trading goods with Europe, Africa and the Middle East that they need to be choked off in the Straits of Malacca? Is that so evil we need to go to war with them?

Here's an idea? Instead of war with the world's largest country how about we re-invest in technologies, try and create better products and try and sell Australian made products to the world and compete with China on the free market, not the battlefield?

 

[Schneebly11]

This has a bit of WMD in Iraq feel about it only with China as the bad guy this time. Surely they wouldn't lie to us all again?

Like how they didn't lie about Kuwaiti Incubator babies, or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, or the sinking of the USS Maine to start the Spanish-American War.....

 

[Schneebly11]

HMAS Stirling & its in the electorate of the WA Premier.

Interestingly enough former navy man Mark is about to head to Beijing on a trade mission to shore up ties. He knows where this nation's bread is buttered, it would be good for others to do the same. Obviously he isn't being paid by ASPI.

 

[QuietB]

My father was lucky enough to survive WW2 as did the crew he flew with, some of whom 'baled out' for the exercise.
Only lost one of my mates in Vietnam, he didnt serve by choice. Another carries the physical scars.
All of whom carried the mental scars of war.

Clearly your understanding of the respect for the diggers is confused with politics.

I have complete respect for people who have served. My Grandfather also flew in WWII and has enough medals to fit in at a North Korean military convention. I can name another half dozen from my family including a great grandfather who fought in both world wars if you really want to compare notes.

But that is very different to the dickheads who have never served a minute and hide behind the flag glorifying war every chance they get.

I heard Dutton wants to shave cost off the NDIS to fund all this. He never mentioned a hold on the war memorial expansion did he. Apparently we have $550m to build a folly for the politicians to cut ribbons and lay wreaths for the cameras whilst we simultaneously refuse to support veterans.

 

[Kwality]

I have complete respect for people who have served. My Grandfather also flew in WWII and has enough medals to fit in at a North Korean military convention. I can name another half dozen from my family including a great grandfather who fought in both world wars if you really want to compare notes.

But that is very different to the dickheads who have never served a minute and hide behind the flag glorifying war every chance they get.

I heard Dutton wants to shave cost off the NDIS to fund all this. He never mentioned a hold on the war memorial expansion did he. Apparently we have $550m to build a folly for the politicians to cut ribbons and lay wreaths for the cameras whilst we simultaneously refuse to support veterans.

Respect for the diggers is often mentioned in the same breath as glorifying war by the poorly informed.

 

[Schneebly11]

Malcolm Turnbull has joined Keating in criticising AUKUS today:

Malcolm Turnbull questions whether ‘sick’ British economy can sustain AUKUS

Turnbull joined Paul Keating in criticising the AUKUS pact, insisting it would have been better to acquire nuclear-powered submarines from France.

www.smh.com.au

Different point of view to Keating but correctly pointing out that the UK, one third of this "partnership", is a sickly, bedridden, strife torn, isolated nation after years of Tory rule, and can't even run a health service let alone a Navy.

We seem to have joined with the UK as we have a part of them on our flag (which is why getting rid of that sh*t is essential to the long term future of this nation).

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Really that's just crap and you know it, I expect a bit better from you. Here are few of the components, I'm sure I've missed something.

8 Aukus Subs
3-5 'old' Virgins
Building the sub construction facility in SA
Investing in STEM training to produce technicians and engineers to support the program
Training and recruitment of crew
Upgrading HMAS Sterling significantly
Collins LOTE
Nuclear disposal facility - luckily SA is the only place in Oz that deserves it,
Set of steak knives

The fact that the PRC are going so hard at tryng to stop it through the IAEC, stirring up diplomatic issues with neighbours and raising the risks of nuclear weapons proliferation tells me it's a genuinely good idea that brings strategic concerns for the PLA.

Mind you, the PRC claims about nuclear proliferation are very hypocritical given they gave nuclear secrets to Pakistan to build their bomb, which then helped NK develop it's own nuclear weapons. The worst proliferator of actual nuclear weapons has been the PRC, remember that when you see PRC diplomats putting on concerned faces discussing the risk of nuclear proliferation from AUKUS.

Explain to how that comes to $365 billion dollars which is $15,000 from each person in this country?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Planes (F-35s) are about 10-15x the cost of a submarine (Virginia Class). So you're talking about ~100 planes.

Submarines have more range, harder to detect, can basically operate anywhere in the world without support, more firepower (10x more missiles).

HMAS Adelaide cost more than half of the cost of a Virginia Class Submarine.

To do what? Spy ?

 

[QuietB]

Respect for the diggers is often mentioned in the same breath as glorifying war by the poorly informed.

I see you do not want to engage in the actual conversation. As usual.

Immediate deflection is often employed by the morally and intellectually bankrupt.

 

[Gough]

I have complete respect for people who have served. My Grandfather also flew in WWII and has enough medals to fit in at a North Korean military convention. I can name another half dozen from my family including a great grandfather who fought in both world wars if you really want to compare notes.

But that is very different to the dickheads who have never served a minute and hide behind the flag glorifying war every chance they get.

I heard Dutton wants to shave cost off the NDIS to fund all this. He never mentioned a hold on the war memorial expansion did he. Apparently we have $550m to build a folly for the politicians to cut ribbons and lay wreaths for the cameras whilst we simultaneously refuse to support veterans.

My Grandad ended up stationed at Belsen after it was liberated, my Grandma said that took thirty five years to kill him.

 

[owen87]

Respect for the diggers is often mentioned in the same breath as glorifying war by the poorly informed.

Respect for Diggers is often used as an argument by the poorly informed who have no intention whatsoever in voting for anything that actually supports returned servicemen.

The concept of them is all they support, not the reality of kids who've been put through traumatic experiences struggling to reintegrate with society that need support from the welfare state.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

The technology exists for nuclear submarines, you'd be able to have nuclear powered road trains though. The energy density required for freight excludes it from being electric.

The technology exists for electric trucks too. Tesla have already sold some but admittedly they appear to be underperforming.

Hydrogen powered electric trucks appear to be a viable solution to the energy density problem. Or battery swapping.

We'll never eliminate oil but reducing our dependence on it and having a mix of fuels is surely a good strategy from a defence perspective.

 

[Taylor]

The technology exists for electric trucks too. Tesla have already sold some but admittedly they appear to be underperforming.

Hydrogen powered electric trucks appear to be a viable solution to the energy density problem. Or battery swapping.

We'll never eliminate oil but reducing our dependence on it and having a mix of fuels is surely a good strategy from a defence perspective.

Correct, I think we should have significant investment in nuclear power too.

The energy density required to move road trains is a bridge too far though.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Dandrews joins the line of critics.

And I agree, if the point is to dissuade China from attacking us, just give them $100b over the same time period to not declare war on us, that's 2/3 of the cost saved.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Correct, I think we should have significant investment in nuclear power too.

The energy density required to move road trains is a bridge too far though.

Yeah, I'm not morally opposed to nuclear power and it probably should be investigated to increase our fuel mix - it just seems to be a complicated and expensive way to boil water.

Yep, oil is an amazing fuel and unlikely to be beat in the short to mid term for freight but surely if our fuel supplies from Singapore were blockaded, the first thing we would do is ration supplies for private transport so that freight can continue. EVs could avoid the rationing freeing up more supplies for freight and defence.

 

[Kwality]

View attachment 1630617

Dandrews joins the line of critics.

And I agree, if the point is to dissuade China from attacking us, just give them $100b over the same time period to not declare war on us, that's 2/3 of the cost saved.

Dan/Victoria, remember the belt & road. There is nothing here that the rest of the world needs.

Australian state debt ever increasing: latest interstate comparisons slide deck - Adept Economics | Decision Defining Insights

The 2022-23 Australian state government budgets have revealed ever-increasing levels of debt, as state governments “borrow to build” and take their time to repair their operating budgets which were wrecked by the pandemic. Adept Economics has updated our interstate debt slide deck, which is...

adepteconomics.com.au

We keep on borrowing.

 

[Saint]

Correct, I think we should have significant investment in nuclear power too.

The energy density required to move road trains is a bridge too far though.

A nuclear submarine capability and support infrastructure would be a great first step in developing domestic nuclear energy if they find a way to make it cheaper in the future (i.e. fusion or improved smaller reactors).

 

[kranky al]

Orca the killer sub, nuclear powered, that will do nothing against a country like China that is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons.

What is it that were trying be with this deal? A minnow power that can park a sub in the SC sea?

Only thing I think of with this deal is that of the JSF, another waste of money.

In mid 2030s we'll supposedly have 3 subs, and * me, $400bn later we might have another 4, the Chinese should be laughing at our stupidity.

PJK is 200% correct.

Only know nothings go on about the jsf.

Nothing can survive in the air against it.

Even in exercises where they fabricate all sorts of restrictions against ut whilst putting none on the opfor it still cleans up.

There has never been a more dominant plane. Pilots call going up against non stealth planes “clubbing baby seals”

The perfect plane for a small airforce against a much larger but tech inferior.

 

[kranky al]

Has China actually invaded anyone in the last few hundred years? A quick Google search says they invaded Vietnam in the 1400’s and Japan a few hundred years before that.

Meanwhile the USA has invaded how many nation’s in the last 100 years?

The narrative around all of this is insane

Your quick google search sucks arse dude.
Really hate it when people put their 2c in and dont know a funking thing about what they are arguing about.

China invaded tibet in 1950

From the Archives, 1950: China invades Tibet

amp.smh.com.au

China invaded korea in the 50’s:

Explaining China's Intervention in the Korean War in 1950 - JournalQuest

Then theres the chinese invasion of vietnam in 1979:

The Bitter Legacy of the 1979 China-Vietnam War

Officially, both sides have tried to forget the bloody conflict. Unofficially, bitterness still runs deep.

thediplomat.com

China invaded india in 1962, took 15000sq miles has never returned it. :

Sino-Indian War | Causes, Summary, & Casualties

Sino-Indian War, (October 20–November 20, 1962), conflict between India and China, centred primarily on the disputed Aksai Chin region along those countries’ borders. The partition of India (1947), which took place just as the Cold War began transforming the landscape of international relations

www.britannica.com

Border clashes with india this year and last:

India-China border dispute explained in 400 words - BBC News

Here's what you need to know about the border dispute high in the Himalayas.

www.bbc.com

Uighurs who are a completely different ethnic group wanted to secede in the 1990’s when the soviet union broke up. china sent the troops in and are now involved in genocide:

Why is there tension between China and the Uighurs? - BBC News

The BBC looks at the history of discord between Chinese authorities and the indigenous ethnic Uighur population in the Xinjiang region.

www.bbc.com

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Lest we forget for our guys that paid the ultimate sacrifice, you charlatan.

Sacrifice for what?