Balmey

[NICK THE PIE MAN]

You are useless.

Go away.

 

[carringbush]

Nic you may think you are a pie man but you are way wrong about Balmey. So you go away

 

[GlovemanGayfer]

I think you are seriously wrong here Nick, Balmey has been great for us. Who would you like ?? Greg MIller???

 

[labrooy]

It has been as much the hard work of the off-field team as the on-field team that has brought Collingwood from wooden spooners to grand finalist. Balmey has been an important member of that off-field team.

Maybe instead of stupid comments a bit of justification would be nice.

 

[Lensen]

How many players from other clubs, that we've targeted since Balmey got there, have we actually picked up?

 

[Nic]

Undecided.

 

[NICK THE PIE MAN]

How many players has he got to Collingwood since he took over?He's only netted Woewodin in his term and that was because he fell into our lap and the Dees wanted to off-load him. Its not like we chased him.

He decided we don't need a ruck-coach and decided to multi-task it. No wonder we have been beaten in the ruck for so many years. (I know this is not entirely his fault as we have been developing Josh and there has been no one else) Actually this does come back to him. WHERE IS OUR RUCKMAN BALME? We were crying for one 3 years ago and still f*ck all has been done. Balme said before the trade period that we again wouldn't be after a ruckman in the trade period because we are "going to develop Richards,Cloke and Crow for the ruck." Did this guy see the London game? If we are going to develop them it will take a bloody long time to if that London game is any indication. That is why we need a short-term solution who can ruck a few years in tandem with Josh to show him a few more tricks and help out Cloke and Richards in their development. Blind Freddy could see it. I wish Balmey could.

Not to mention the heap of people tipped off Balme bout Tennace (he'll go about 3 in the draft this year) in the last two years (he could have been drafted last year) but Blamey laughed it off and said the kid won't be anything.

Is that enough reasons?

 

[Lockyer24]

Balmey isn't the main man when it comes to trades and what not I'd think.

 

[NICK THE PIE MAN]

Originally posted by GlovemanGayfer
I think you are seriously wrong here Nick, Balmey has been great for us. Who would you like ?? Greg MIller???

Greg Miller got Nathan Brown for a bargain and came close to getting Dean Solomon as well. He even travelled over to London to try and entice him to move. Yes I think he is a tosser but that doesn't matter. I Wouldn't mind seeing the same kind of aggresive recruiting.

 

[dogga16]

So Nick, you'd prefer us to trade a young promising player (Lonie, Didak, Cole) for the likes of Stevens & Brown. I like the way we are heading.
Steady improvement rather than trading young players who we've developed and yet to see fully mature for a quick fix.

Balmey has been largely responsible in making us a more professional outfit on and off the field. He'd be a loss with his experience in coaching at AFL level.

His time at Melbourne was greatly diminshed due to the severe injuries to Lyon, Schwarz & Tingay at their peak.

 

[MarkT]

I am non committal about Balmey. He is pretty good with the media but frankly we have the media as our president so we hardly need Balmey to shield and to spin. Gubby Allen and Andrew Ireland are 2 blokes I'd love to see back at Collingwood and Balmey could disappear. I really can't see what Balmey can add for us these days. When he first came in he had a role but what does he really add now? The front and back office run pretty well. I would like to see us get someone in who can get the Buckley, Rocca etc deals over the line. Having said that, I am not crying over the Stevens no deal. I am happy we don't go for trade trophies at all costs just to appease the papers and the supporters. There was a lot of pressure to get Stevens and that was resisted in name of common sense up to a point.

What does disappoint me re Stevens is that we didn't have a plan to get some early trade selection from 2 weeks prior to the draft for players like Betheras, Kinnear, McKee, Williams, O'Bree, Scotland. Woewodin, Lokan and a few others. Not saying these blokes can't play (well a couple of them can't) but they are all very expendable for us and getting trades done is all about who you package up together and to which club. This is symptomatic of what manifests itself in Collingwood playing another Grand Final and then going into another season with an obvious deficiency in the ruck. Josh has a very bright future but yet again we saw how he was mauled and bashed in the ruck, yet we pin our hopes on Richards who is as skinny. Why we didn't spend weeks before trade week negotiating to offload the players mentioned above, even for bargain deals, in order to upgrade our first round draft pick and to get more earlyish picks has me stumped. With some better picks we could have obtained a ruckman (say McDonald from a salary cap pressured Brisbane), Stevens or drafted some real quality youngsters in November. I just don't see a strategy other than steady as she goes and that isn't good enough and I don't see where Balmey fits in.

 

[GlovemanGayfer]

You cant be serious about Greg Miller. Mate, if we had been silly enough to throw the same amount of $$$$$ at Nathan Brown he would be a pie. His decision was beased on cash not on any great talent in the recruiting department. I actually applaud Balmey and his department for laughing in Browns face and telling him to take a hike. MIller is a professional muck stirrer and not much else. Balme has a football brain (SANFL premierships and AFL Finals as a coach) and has been great for us. Who else has drafted non contracted "stars" lately, apart from ones returning home? I think you should be happy with what we have not comparing us to anyone else because we are doing fine.

 

[Murray]

I thought Balme was the Manager of Football operations.
He would NOT decide who goes or who comes.
1. MM would decide who goes
2. MM and Judkins would decide who comes.
Balme would simply manage the process based on 1 and 2 above.
For instance he can't offer up Didak or Presti if MM says they are not to be traded.
He cannot go after Cox, White, Lade etc if MM and Judkins say they are not required.

And the other point is Balme cannot force another club to trade with us.
There is no doubt we could have got any player we wanted if we were prepared to give up a current star or a young up and comer.
Other clubs are not completety stupid they know Kinnear et al are duds, why would they give up a valuable early pick or gun player for the likes of him.
We don't play Leon or Rupe in the 1's why would any other club give up something of value for something we see as little value.

 

[GlovemanGayfer]

Nice post Murray!

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Murray
Other clubs are not completety stupid they know Kinnear et al are duds, why would they give up a valuable early pick or gun player for the likes of him.
We don't play Leon or Rupe in the 1's why would any other club give up something of value for something we see as little value.

That's why you package them. Say Williams, McKee and Betheras to Blues or or Kinnear, McKee, O'Bree to Dogs. Give 'em a good player and a fringe player who could get a game, throw in a late draft pick and get an earlyish pick or a mid range depending on the deal. Use that pick with, say, Scotland, for an earlier pick. The point is, have someone work full time for a month before trade week on getting deals done so we have some decent bargaining chips. Even if we fail to secure who we want we'll end uo better off in November. For 3 years we have got bugger all for our fringe players while others have done better. How we could have got only pick 35 for Scotland has me beat. he wanted to be traded last year and we waited another year, played him in the twos and then did a late despiration trade to get something to offer Port. That was pathetic. If that was the only deal we could do we should have had it stiched up well before trade week and done the deal in tghe first minute of trade week and moved on to something else. More to the point, Scotland, McKee and Kinnear should have traed last year. McKee especially had currency and he was never going to be part of our long term plans. Ditto Molloy and Freborne.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by MarkT
For 3 years we have got bugger all for our fringe players while others have done better.

Bugger all is all you get for fringe players. People seem to forget that Brodie Holland, Paul Licuria, James Clement and Shane O'Bree were also fringe players at their previous clubs, and we picked them up for a song. It cuts both ways.

 

[GlovemanGayfer]

Top post. We need to be careful to remember our successes and not to look at our "failures".

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by hotpie
Bugger all is all you get for fringe players. People seem to forget that Brodie Holland, Paul Licuria, James Clement and Shane O'Bree were also fringe players at their previous clubs, and we picked them up for a song. It cuts both ways.

It cuts both ways at Collingwood but it doesn't at Essendon. We aren't aiming to be average we are aiming to be far better than the best.

You're right you get bugger all for fringe players but put one with a better player and you can get plenty. Clubs will punt a fringe player with a player who is a safe bet and you'll get something for a player where you would otherwise get nothing.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by MarkT
It cuts both ways at Collingwood but it doesn't at Essendon. We aren't aiming to be average we are aiming to be far better than the best.

You're right you get bugger all for fringe players but put one with a better player and you can get plenty. Clubs will punt a fringe player with a player who is a safe bet and you'll get something for a player where you would otherwise get nothing.

Perhaps its not out trading that cost us two flags, its one single draft pick. Danny Roach. Scrap him and replace him with Pavlich and we might have had two flags. Perhaps we over-analyse.

Interesting you mention Essendon. They are not neccessarily a model to copy as they have traded away some very good players to accomodate Mercuri and Misiti (as well as Hird Lloyd who at least earn their keep). Also their ruck division is worse than ours - they have had the same difficulty securing a ruckman as us, despite trading away plenty of "stars".

 

[Whisky_McKay]

Good thread guys.
MarkT you make an assumption which may not be real.
Clubs may not want the bundle as it eats up salary cap space and keeps a kid out. That brings you back to offering up a reasonable player and all you will get in return is a reasonable player.
I think Scotland is a special case, he nominated Carlton, all they had was pick 2 and pick 35 and as good as I think Scoots is we would never get pick 2 from them.

I do agree with you that we should have traded some players last year, although as I understand it no one wanted Kinnear, no surprises there I guess and Malty decided to keep Scoots.
I think we should have offered up Molloy, Freeborne as at that time they probably had some trade value.

But as to to whether it is Balmey's fault, I don't think so
What do they say about hindsight?

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by hotpie
Perhaps its not out trading that cost us two flags, its one single draft pick. Danny Roach. Scrap him and replace him with Pavlich and we might have had two flags. Perhaps we over-analyse.

I've always thought the McKee deal was a shocker and IMO it has cost us a minimum of 1 and maybe 2 flags. Take out McKee and add in Pavlich and we are instantly better. What would in all likelyhood have happened also is that we would have been forced to recruit a ruckman. IMO we would be 2 important players better off. On top of that we would have one of the players of this era. Pavlich will be an absolute super star.

Originally posted by hotpie
Interesting you mention Essendon. They are not neccessarily a model to copy as they have traded away some very good players to accomodate Mercuri and Misiti (as well as Hird Lloyd who at least earn their keep). Also their ruck division is worse than ours - they have had the same difficulty securing a ruckman as us, despite trading away plenty of "stars".

Essendons trading has been very very good for a long time. Their willingness to fold when good players hold their hands out is another matter. Hird and Mercuri alone have cost them dearly. I think the poor cap/list management has stopped them getting a high priced ruckman. Their actual trading has always been good though. Ours has been crap for my entire life. From hacks like Sandliands and Bissett to Teasdale and McLean to missing Quinlin, Lockett and Roos who were all done deals to missing Stevens and still no ruckman. I just find it all frustrating nad worse, unending.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Whisky_McKay
MarkT you make an assumption which may not be real.
Clubs may not want the bundle as it eats up salary cap space and keeps a kid out. That brings you back to offering up a reasonable player and all you will get in return is a reasonable player.

That could well be so but there are 15 clubs to deal with and 3/4/5 way deals which can be done. You have to be inventive and agressive.

Originally posted by Whisky_McKay
I think Scotland is a special case, he nominated Carlton, all they had was pick 2 and pick 35 and as good as I think Scoots is we would never get pick 2 from them.

The other thing we had was Scotlands contract. North wanted McKernan. We had a few other players to offer. Someone else could also have been involed and we had a 1st and 4th round draft pick to use. All I am saying is we can make excuses for getting a poor return and not getting what we want for only so long. Frankly I've heard it for far too long.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by MarkT

Essendons trading has been very very good for a long time. Their willingness to fold when good players hold their hands out is another matter. Hird and Mercuri alone have cost them dearly. I think the poor cap/list management has stopped them getting a high priced ruckman. Their actual trading has always been good though. Ours has been crap for my entire life. From hacks like Sandliands and Bissett to Teasdale and McLean to missing Quinlin, Lockett and Roos who were all done deals to missing Stevens and still no ruckman. I just find it all frustrating nad worse, unending.

Its hard to differentiate between trading, cap management, list managemnt, and negotiation of individual player's salaries. All these elements go into the mix, and you cannot strip out one part of what Essendon do and say "we should be like that", because you are only looking at part of the puzzle.

I understand your frustrations, but wee Georgie Bissett is a long time retired now. I'm not sure his recruitment in about 1971 has anything to do with the Bombers sacking Heffernan, Caracella and Jacobs.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by hotpie
but wee Georgie Bissett is a long time retired now. I'm not sure his recruitment in about 1971 has anything to do with the Bombers sacking Heffernan, Caracella and Jacobs.

You know that butterfly that flaps it wings in Japan and causes a hurricane in Florida? It's all connected.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by NICK THE PIE MAN
Not to mention the heap of people tipped off Balme bout Tennace (he'll go about 3 in the draft this year) in the last two years (he could have been drafted last year) but Blamey laughed it off and said the kid won't be anything.

Absolute garbage!

Tenace was too young last year. This is his first eligible year.

I personally want someone else doing the trades though. He might be great around the Club, but a negotiator he ain't!