Discussion Brick by Brick...

[Persevering Saint]

Defacto has started a thread about the long term goals for the list. I want to start one about the week by week goals for rebuilding. The fact is, a rebuild doesn't happen in one big go - it is the slow accumulation of improvements, "brick by brick". That comes in recruiting in the off-season, and player selection and development in the main season.

So, where do we need to go, right now, in terms of development?

 

[Persevering Saint]

I will say, to begin with, Watters said he was excited about the opportunity for kids to put their hand up and stake a claim for a senior spot.

I'm not sure he'd be that excited now. We desperately need a young midfielder to stake his claim. From what I can gather, none of them did. Ledger (pft...), Curren, Ross, none of them seemed to be banging the door down, although TC got a few goals, so hey.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

No doubt we need to recruit a couple of A grade midfielders but generally they are top 10 picks which we have not had for a while. Yes we had two decent picks last year (12,13), but the decision was made to use them to address many of the other issues with our list, (which I 100% agree with). Over the next two drafts we need to pick up at least one gun midfielder with our first draft pick which in all reality will be within the top 10. Unless of course an unbelievably talented tall falls to our pick of course .

I think free agency will take care of our key defenders, (Brown yes and Frawley maybe). I think we need another key forward as I agree with other's sentiments that Lee will be that high half forward - that 3rd tall. We have one already with Spencer White. He needs time to develop but we need another one. I think Ross will make it but maybe he needs more time. I think we simply need to get more games into him. Not sure about Ledger but we need to give him a chance. Wright and Murdoch look likely and give them time they will make the grade - they could step up. Simpkin needs to pull his finger out and take that step up. Essentially kids need to play games to see if they can step up or not.

Recruiting is an inexact science as injuries can cruel a career so easily. I have complete faith in Trout Elshaugh with assistance from the Beveridges to make the right call. They have done more in 2011 & 2012 then Jon Peake did in the 2006-10 period. This is why we are where we are right now - because of some incredibly bad recruiting in this time. Throw in Luke Ball leaving for nothing, (we could have had the pick that netted Port Jasper Pittard), and this explains our current situation.

 

[Persevering Saint]

To put some perspective on all this, here is a list of all our players under 50 games and 25 years old. These are the future. I've also put the 0gamers in age order, and Rookies at the end.

Roberton: 39 games, 21years
Stanley: 23g, 22y
Simpkin: 21g, 22y
Dennis-Lane: 20g, 24y (just sneaks in, probably irrelevant to the discussion)
Saad: 18g, 23y
Sippos:: 18g, 20y
Hickey: 13g, 22y
Newnes: 9g, 20y
Ledger: 6g, 21y
Dunell: 5g, 23y
Ross: 1g, 19y
Lee: 0g, 22y
Markworth: 0g, 21y
Lever: 0g, 19y
Murdoch: 0g, 19y
Webster: 0g, 19y
Wright: 0g, 19y
Pierce: 0g, 18y
Saunders: 0g, 18y
White: 0g, 18y
Shenton: R 0g, 22y
Curren: R 0g, 20y
Ferguson: R 0g, 20y
Minchington: R 0g, 19y
Staley: R 0g, 19y

 

[Defacto]

Defacto has started a thread about the long term goals for the list. I want to start one about the week by week goals for rebuilding. The fact is, a rebuild doesn't happen in one big go - it is the slow accumulation of improvements, "brick by brick". That comes in recruiting in the off-season, and player selection and development in the main season.

So, where do we need to go, right now, in terms of development?

great thread.

first thing i would do is drop milne. the bloke is 33 every game he plays takes away from a kid potentially playing. so unless he performs the poor performance is doubled, as we lost an opportunity to blood the kids. which lets be honest, were in a race against time to get the kids established before the veterans retire.

OUT: Milne
IN: Hyphen

we need to get some games into wright, murdoch and ross. preferably this weekend against the giants. we also need to make sure were still getting games into the other players <24 that are still in the best 22 (i.e. siposs, stanley, steven, roberton, newnes, saad)

 

[Defacto]

To put some perspective on all this, here is a list of all our players under 50 games and 25 years old. These are the future. I've also put the 0gamers in age order, and Rookies at the end.

Roberton: 39 games, 21years
Stanley: 23g, 22y
Simpkin: 21g, 22y
Dennis-Lane: 20g, 24y (just sneaks in, probably irrelevant to the discussion)
Saad: 18g, 23y
Sippos:: 18g, 20y
Hickey: 13g, 22y
Newnes: 9g, 20y
Ledger: 6g, 21y
Dunell: 5g, 23y
Ross: 1g, 19y
Lee: 0g, 22y
Markworth: 0g, 21y
Lever: 0g, 19y
Murdoch: 0g, 19y
Webster: 0g, 19y
Wright: 0g, 19y
Pierce: 0g, 18y
Saunders: 0g, 18y
White: 0g, 18y
Shenton: R 0g, 22y
Curren: R 0g, 20y
Ferguson: R 0g, 20y
Minchington: R 0g, 19y
Staley: R 0g, 19y

another great post mate.

that just goes to show how damaging it is to gift players who are > 24y games when they arent performing. its going to set back the development of the core group of younger players that will take us to the next flag.

we need to be a bit more brash and trust in the kids.

 

[mysainters]

I agree to an extent, but you need to balance it like the pies and cats..

Some guys are great at teaching their craft and bringing younger guys into the match

As long as its brick by brick, and not straw

 

[Squizz]

We desperately need a young midfielder to stake his claim.

No doubt we need to recruit a couple of A grade midfielders but generally they are top 10 picks which we have not had for a while. Yes we had two decent picks last year (12,13), but the decision was made to use them to address many of the other issues with our list, (which I 100% agree with).

were in a race against time to get the kids established before the veterans retire.

These pretty much sum up what's bouncing around in my noggin too.

It's a massive catch 22. We desperately need to build the spread of AFL experience, but they have to earn it - and we can't afford to play too many at the one time (which means a younger guy should miss out on games when their form tails off so another young player can get opportunity).

Although the pressure has to be on the guys at the end of their career to perform consistently.

As Watters said, despite the new players brought onto the list we are only half-way through the rebuild - and a key defender and A-grade mid need to be located.

 

[Persevering Saint]

That's the thing that is so disappointing from today's Zebs game: Watters goes on TV and radio and says that there are spots up for grabs in the seniors, to players who put their hand up in the Zebs. So, every one of our young kids went out today KNOWING their coach would be there, that there was a chance to come in, against the Giants, and really establish your spot. If you were one of them, you'd want to make a big impression, wouldn't you?

Well, we lost by a fair margin. And aside from TDL, who doesn't really count, who really staked a claim? Squizz, you're in a better position than me, obviously to answer that, but what I heard on the radio was decidedly uninspiring. You mentioned Ross having his best game - do you think he was really "banging the door down" to get a Saints guernsey.

The problem isn't solved by just playing kids in an unaccountable manner. They have to actually be kids who show they CAN and WANT to succeed. Gifts are for the under 12s.

 

[Defacto]

the most frustrating younger player for me is ledger. showed a really good attitude in his first NAB Cup and has done absolutely nothing since.

his recent NAB Cup game against port adelaide was nothing short of embarrassing. players like newnes, ross, wright, murdoch have gone past him at a rate of knotts

 

[Persevering Saint]

Yep, it's pretty simple for Ledge. This is the make or break year for him: he either picks up and becomes a real contributor at AFL level, or he'll be delisted. He is in the same situation as Winmar was this time last year. Whether he ends up like Winmar, well, it's up to him. But Watters has already shown in Winmar that he won't keep kids on the list just for the sake of it.

 

[Strahany]

I wouldn't read too much into how Sandringham performs, when trying to ascertain which kids (if any) performed to a standard that would warrant selection. Just take one look at Melbourne to see that they have plenty of quality players, yet get pumped by 150 points. The only people who are in a good position to grade an individual's performance are the coaching staff, as they have their key indicators that won't be present in the main statistics.

As for progression, I think that the younger guys need to play an exponentially increasing number of games every year they're in the system. Not only does this prevent over and under exposure to the top level, but it suits where our list stands, due to a relatively large loss of senior best 22 players to come over the next few years. By the time they're all gone, we really need to be able to replace each and every one of them with someone who has played, at the very least, 20 games, and hopefully have a large number of players on 10-20 games that are on the rung below.

I don't think this will be too hard to accomplish, but there is definitely ample opportunity for issues to arise. For example, we simply may not have many kids (or any at all) who are demanding selection, which puts us in a really difficult situation; we need to give them games, but don't want to gift them, nor do we want to discourage them by throwing them in the deep end before they're ready. This could be a prominent problem due to our lack of quality picks used on drafted kids in the past 3 years, as it is really those kind of top 10 youngsters that force their way in early.

To me, this is probably the single most important factor. If we get the balance right, then this long process should be kept as minimal and problem free as possible. If we butcher it, well, who knows how bad things could get.

 

[Squizz]

mentioned Ross having his best game - do you think he was really "banging the door down" to get a Saints guernsey.

It was a strong game from him, but the pace of players around him can be an issue. I don't think we can afford a slower mid in the team whilst Lenny, Armo and Dal are in there.

Wright was unlucky, as he hurt his leg in a contest. Didn't really get into the game after that.

Murdoch looks to have AFL qualities, but I wouldn't rush him in. Dunell seems in front of him at this stage.

 

[Defacto]

It was a strong game from him, but the pace of players around him can be an issue. I don't think we can afford a slower mid in the team whilst Lenny, Armo and Dal are in there.

Wright was unlucky, as he hurt his leg in a contest. Didn't really get into the game after that.

Murdoch looks to have AFL qualities, but I wouldn't rush him in. Dunell seems in front of him at this stage.

in your opinion squizz whats the best spot for wright and murdoch in the side?

 

[Squizz]

in your opinion squizz whats the best spot for wright and murdoch in the side?

I was going to write on the 2017 thread, but can't get my head around that sort of time period!

One of the points I had was that some of the half backs we've continued to pick up (Wright, Murdoch, Webster, Newnes) have to become mids. With Siposs and Stanley playing back, and Roberton coming to the club, there just isn't much opportunity for them as half backs - and we lack genuine depth in young mids (hence Watters hoping that he can get more midfield time out of Milera, Schneider and Saad).

But as it stands, that's their best spot (noting they are very different sizes/types).

 

[hayes]

Any young player that comes in gets at minimum 4-6 games to show what they've got. Of course any young player that comes in isn't being gifted anything.

Another thing I'd do is consider sacrificing one or two of the veteran players, because IMO the balance is a bit too far to the senior player side than kids.

 

[hayes]

IMO Wright will eventually be a midfielder. His attack on the ball and the man with it is too good to be in the backline. Murdoch I think will be a similiar player to Isaac Smith from the Hawks. A HF/winger, or dare I say it like his brother. I don't usually like lazy comparisons like that but they do look really similiar. That's the sort of player I see him becoming, a really damaging player with his speed and foot skills.

 

[aussierulesrules]

We do all realise that the "rebuild" started 12 months ago, don't we?

We started turning our list over in a big way at the completion of the 2011 season and since then we've made 21 changes to it and seen the introduction of, or increase in game time to the likes of Saad, Milera, Newnes, Cripps (who was gifted games last year when he was hardly touching it), Siposs, Stanley, Ross, Maister, Roberton, Hickey, TDL.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed in the last week or so and we are simply a year down a path that is going to take some time and that is going to see many new faces brought into the team and get increased roles and will see the careers of the older ones draw to a close, some sooner than others.

Or have I missed something? I have been out for much of the day.

If this is all from Scott's interview on SEN yesterday, then I wouldn't have thought he said anything that we weren't already aware of, or that anything is about to change, regarding the fact that we are rebuilding our list and our team (which, as he says, every club is pretty much doing all the time, it's just that some are doing it more than others).

 

[Persevering Saint]

I tend to think of playing veterans from two perspectives: either they contribute significantly enough to win games, or they represent characteristics that we want the young guys to emulate (and often, these two things are symbiotic).

So, a player like Riewoldt can still win us games. A player like Hayes can do that. A player like Jones is less likely to be a game changer, but he represents characteristics that I think the kids really benefit from.

So, of the older players that played the other night, the only one that doesn't REALLY meet those criteria, is Blake. I love the guy, but he's not going to win us games, and doesn't really teach much in terms of either technique or grit, not like Jones is right now.

 

[saintsrfreak]

I'm starting to question the decision of picking up Hickey and Lee tbh, Jesse Longergan and Aidan Corr would've been pretty nice

 

[Persevering Saint]

Or have I missed something? I have been out for much of the day.

If this is all from Scott's interview on SEN yesterday, then I wouldn't have thought he said anything that we weren't already aware of, or that anything is about to change, regarding the fact that we are rebuilding our list and our team (which, as he says, every club is pretty much doing all the time, it's just that some are doing it more than others).

The main issue, arising from the interview, is that he NAMED it. Which is why I made this thread - now we actually know this is a specific goal of the club.

Secondly, Scott explicitly said in the interview that he would be eyeing out young talent playing in the VFL. So the question is, who of the VFL seem ready to take that opportunity, as a step towards them progressing the rebuilding process.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Blake is the obvious one that is likely to make way this week from the older brigade, along with Dempster and maybe Siposs will be swapped for someone else young, just to give him a bit of a reality check and bring him down to Earth a bit, if that is what the club feels he is in need of.

 

[Squizz]

I'm starting to question the decision of picking up Hickey and Lee tbh, Jesse Longergan and Aidan Corr would've been pretty nice

Surely not yet, freak?

We can't bank everything on Macca - a genuine ruck option had to be picked up. Whether they can play in the same team in their 2013 versions is to be seen. But Hickey is 2 years younger, and (sounding like a broken record) he needs another 12 months.

Lee is in the same boat. As Watters himself said "this is going to be a really important development year for him" - and he's referred to him as a succession player i.e. post-Riewoldt.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Surely not yet, freak?

We can't bank everything on Macca - a genuine ruck option had to be picked up. Whether they can play in the same team in their 2013 versions is to be seen. But Hickey is 2 years younger, and (sounding like a broken record) he needs another 12 months.

Lee is in the same boat. As Watters himself said "this is going to be a really important development year for him" - and he's referred to him as a succession player i.e. post-Riewoldt.

I recognise that they both have plenty of time to develop, I just think defence and midfield are probably more pressing areas than forward line and ruck for us.

 

[Defacto]

We do all realise that the "rebuild" started 12 months ago, don't we?

We started turning our list over in a big way at the completion of the 2011 season and since then we've made 21 changes to it and seen the introduction of, or increase in game time to the likes of Saad, Milera, Newnes, Cripps (who was gifted games last year when he was hardly touching it), Siposs, Stanley, Ross, Maister, Roberton, Hickey, TDL.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed in the last week or so and we are simply a year down a path that is going to take some time and that is going to see many new faces brought into the team and get increased roles and will see the careers of the older ones draw to a close, some sooner than others.

Or have I missed something? I have been out for much of the day.

If this is all from Scott's interview on SEN yesterday, then I wouldn't have thought he said anything that we weren't already aware of, or that anything is about to change, regarding the fact that we are rebuilding our list and our team (which, as he says, every club is pretty much doing all the time, it's just that some are doing it more than others).

i think we were trying to rebuild with an aim to make finals and have a crack at the flag whilst the experience is around. something that watters was on on record saying last year. i think everyone now accepts we are no chance at the flag and the aim should be rebuilding to have a very good chance at it in 3-4 years time.