Discussion Brick by Brick...

[tbarker]

I agree with most of what you say, but the constant bagging of Beau is something that I don't agree with at all. Sure he drops some marks, but surely that is a confidence thing and something that can be eradicated, by building his confidence and by him feeling more comfortable in the role and our team? He has shown with some of the terrific pack marks and high marks that he has taken that he clearly has the ability to mark the ball, so we just need to work on his head and get him more relaxed and comfortable out there, so that he stops dropping the odd sitter (which isn't a game-breaker anyway, if you're marking enough others and kicking enough goals).

He dropped one relative sitter on the weekend, but he took 7 others and at least one of them was a ripper in a pack and he kicked 2 goals and I was watching the replay last night and there were 3 other occasions by the 5 minute mark of the 3rd quarter where he was in prime position to mark balls inside the F50, but we completely butchered the kicks to him. He could have quite easily had as many as 5 goals up by a couple of minutes into the 3rd quarter.

He kicked two in the first half and then there was one occasion where he lead very strongly up the middle and had about a 5m break on whoever was on him, but the kick to him (might have been by Steven) was a shocking tumble-punt-floater and got to him on the bounce, about 35m out directly in front (which he gathered cleanly and handballed off), then there was another up the city end, where he was in great position (I don't think there was anyone within a few metres of him) about 35-40m out, directly in front, but the kick by Steven landed about 5-10m right of him and gave him pretty much no chance of marking it, as it went straight to Richmond's nearest. An accurate kick there and he has the chance to take pretty much an uncontested mark directly in front, 40m out.

Then there was another time up that end where he again was on a very strong lead, with a good break and all Saad had to do to hit him was a simple 15m pass, under almost no direct "pressure", but of course he missed him by about 5m with a 15m kick.

Many of our kicks to Roo are terrible, but watching the replay of this game we actually hit him on the chest almost every time on the weekend (including one from Saad that was an almost identical kick to the 15m one that missed Beau by so much and at least one chiseler from Gilbert, who so often shanks his passes), but in this game Beau was the one to cop terrible pass after terrible pass, so that was prety much the difference between Roo kicking 4 goals and Beau kicking just the two. If Nick had gotten the passes Beau got and vice versa, it would have likely been Beau kicking 4 goals and Nick kicking the two.

Beau is getting better and better and more consistent and I think it would be a terrible idea to leave him out of the team right now. We need to see how much more improvement he has in him and whether he does manage to eradicate the odd bloopers. We all know that he's not perfect in every way, but Kosi sure as shit isn't either and I don't think there is any improvement or future in him at his age, whereas Beau is improving consistently and is of the age we are lacking and one good ability that Beau has is that he can lead strongly from the goalsquare, as he did so many times on the weekend, but is also effective leading up to the wings and even to the HBF, where he took a couple of his marks (including the terrific pack mark) on the weekend. So it's not as though he's not versatile.

What we are getting from Nick and Beau right now and in the preseason is something that we can build on, surely not something we ought to break up. We just need someone to compliment them and that will likely be out of Hickey, Kosi, Stanley and Lee, with Siposs being another option, but one that may not be likely, given that the club most likely wants to get games into both Hickey and Lee.

Fair enough and I agree that he is getting more consistence. I also agree with your points about confidence and how trust from team mates by kicking to him will always reinforce that. My issue is that he doesn't have a whole lot of time to prove himself and he will be stopping development of others in the same position and also around him. That is the harsh reality of being a mature aged player. He is similar to Rooey and yet too old to be his genuine replacement unless he turns it on in games. Kosi is by no means the solution to our ills but from the live games I watch - we look far better structurally with him in the side than Maister. I would love Maister to take games by the throat because we all benefit ( and we need a few cheap gets from canny drafting to make up for the Brian Peake recruiting years) but I am yet to be convinced. Should we be putting those games in Lee? He is not the solution right now either but he has age on his side. As an aside - god help all our forwards with the way we go inside 50 although some need to learn how to lead and not end up in the pocket.

 

[Tongue In Cheek]

As long as he kicks two goals a game for the year, I'll be pretty happy. He's kicked 3 goals in 2 games, so he's not far off that average.

Two goals a game will put him top 15 in the Coleman. Just saying.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Two goals a game will put him top 15 in the Coleman. Just saying.

He'll still have people calling for him to be dropped for Lee, even if he's on 36 goals by Round 18. Guaranteed.

 

[stkildathunda]

Maister is still doing more up forward then Stanley ever did.

 

[Defacto]

Maister is still doing more up forward then Stanley ever did.

agree, although there is an age different and a huge difference when it comes to experience games wise in VFL and AFL

 

[Ian Dunross]

Mitch Brown, plus Frawley plus a good quality 25 yr old mid, plus a top 5 midfielder from the draft sets us up nicely for the next 5-10 years.

Are there any other homesick Eagles (possibly a team on the slide if Kerr and Cox and Glass retire soon)?

Or homesick Suns or Giants ala Caddy?

What ifs are difficult but a spine of Brown, Stanley, Armo (he's stepping up), White, Lee is full of potential.

Some quality on the flanks too.

Great thread too. Cheers PS

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Mitch Brown, plus Frawley plus a good quality 25 yr old mid, plus a top 5 midfielder from the draft sets us up nicely for the next 5-10 years.

Are there any other homesick Eagles (possibly a team on the slide if Kerr and Cox and Glass retire soon)?

Or homesick Suns or Giants ala Caddy?

What ifs are difficult but a spine of Brown, Stanley, Armo (he's stepping up), White, Lee is full of potential.

Some quality on the flanks too.

Great thread too. Cheers PS

WCE are selecting mostly from WA - Gaff & Shuey the only good young VIC mids - both contracted to end of 2014

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Mitch Brown, plus Frawley plus a good quality 25 yr old mid, plus a top 5 midfielder from the draft sets us up nicely for the next 5-10 years.

Are there any other homesick Eagles (possibly a team on the slide if Kerr and Cox and Glass retire soon)?

Or homesick Suns or Giants ala Caddy?

What ifs are difficult but a spine of Brown, Stanley, Armo (he's stepping up), White, Lee is full of potential.

Some quality on the flanks too.

Great thread too. Cheers PS

From GWS i'd be looking at Anthony Miles and Taylor Adams both out of contract i believe.. And Miles is pretty stiff to not be Best 22. Every time he plays AFL he is one of GWS best but dropped the following week and dominates in the NEAFL.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

GWS has a plethora of young VIC mids:

Nick Haynes - end of 2013
Adam Treloar - ?
Dylan Sheil - end of 2015
Dom Tyson - ?
Liam Sumner - end of 2013
Taylor Adams - end of 2013
Toby Greene - end of 2013
Johno O'Rourke - end of 2014
...to name but a few.

http://boundforglorynews.com/suns-and-giants-fostering-culture/

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

GWS has a plethora of young VIC mids:

Nick Haynes - end of 2013
Adam Treloar - ?
Dylan Sheil - end of 2015
Dom Tyson - ?
Liam Sumner - end of 2013
Taylor Adams - end of 2013
Toby Greene - end of 2013
Johno O'Rourke - end of 2014
...to name but a few.

http://boundforglorynews.com/suns-and-giants-fostering-culture/

Didn't Greene re-sign not long ago? If not i'd go hard for him!! Rumour apparently he has wanted a move back to Vic.. But yeah i thought he re-signed not long ago

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Didn't Greene re-sign not long ago? If not i'd go hard for him!! Rumour apparently he has wanted a move back to Vic.. But yeah i thought he re-signed not long ago

you're right - until end of 2015

http://www.sportsnewsfirst.com.au/articles/2012/08/30/greene-gets-giant-extension/

 

[Tombowler]

I'd like to see a concerted effort to pick up dale thomas.. I don't reckon he'd leave Collingwood but I reckon he'd be worth going after had.

 

[CHBench]

Dom Tyson re-signed a few months ago too I'm pretty sure.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

I'm starting to question the decision of picking up Hickey and Lee tbh, Jesse Longergan and Aidan Corr would've been pretty nice

When things are not running smoothly, doubts rear their heads everywhere. Lee and Hickey were chosen to short cut development and allow us to bring in players with years of development already into them. A good move at the time and if they are the right choice, it is still a good move.

You will do your head in, looking back at all past decisions and the could have beens. Saints have a professional administration, excellent coaching staff and are on the right track. They will make mistakes, but they are headed in the right direction.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Okay, so I'm thinking about this a bit tonight. What does a rebuild actually mean? I guess, as a start, I'm going to suggest that there is a natural progression we want to see kids go through (I only make this list as a starting point for us - I suspect it is far more complex, but it might be helpful to start somewhere in our analysis. In other words, if you want to rip it apart, in order to provide a better model, feel free - I'm not precious about it! ):

1. Get selected at a draft.
2. Show attributes in training, and build fitness (weight, run, skills, etc) off the track.
3. Play well in the Development side.
4. Play well in the senior VFL side.
5. Be ready to contribute at AFL level: either because you can play to about 75% the quality of the senior player you would replace, OR there is an injury to said senior player. Consequently, play 4-6 somewhat unconditional games to show your stuff, and learn the caper. After which, you either go back to 4, or move to 6.
6. Play on a week-by-week basis, assessed on fitness, attitude, and obviously contribution to the team.
7. Become a regular player.
8. Become a core player in the side, either because of consistent fulfilling of an important role, or because you are a gun.
9. Become an elite player in the team, top 5 in the best and fairest.
10. Become an elite player in the competition: Brownlow, Coleman, or AA.

Based on this, where do we see our under 50g,24y players? Which ones are where on that list?

11. Win flag
12. Win back to back flags

 

[Persevering Saint]

11. Win flag
12. Win back to back flags

So, based on that list, at what stage do we think each of our under-25-gamers are at?

 

[Sunshine Saint]

I said I was musing out loud for conversations sake, I haven't dressed it up as anything else?

I said he could prove to be visionary, and my sentiments completely unfounded. So it's purely a concerned observation based on the points I highlighted earlier.

In actual fact, I find the 'trust in Pelchen and co' crew more emotive to be perfectly honest.

He made some good moves at the Hawks, and some awful ones, I hope that he has more ticks than crosses at the Saints. David Hale was a masterstroke, I'd like to see more of that kind of stuff.

Two rounds down and some posts have a tone of Melbourne about them. We have a professional administration at St Kilda and as members it is our job to support the staff and players in place. At seasons end, reviews will be done and major changes will be then made.

We have been at the top for so long, we will understandably miss it, but patience please. We are on the right track and it will work out. Now is not the time to navel gaze and to cast doubt on every decision.

Looking forward to younger players getting game time this year.

 

[Defacto]

what about lachie neale from freo

he's a vic from memory and will find it hard to break into the dockers side thats making a run for the flag. he looks like an immediate upgrade on ledger

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

what about lachie neale from freo

he's a vic from memory and will find it hard to break into the dockers side thats making a run for the flag. he looks like an immediate upgrade on ledger

His from SA i am 100% sure..

 

[God Save Max King]

Bound for Glory mentioned that Tyson signed a contract extension but I can't find much more on him. Would like to get him in a trade, especially since he is from the Chargers but I think the asking price will be too high. If he does enter the draft, I doubt he would last until our second round pick and our first rounder might be too high.

A really good draft this year could really set us up for the future. Right now, I think we'd be in the Matt Crouch range, possibly even Josh Kelly if he manages to slide. Two gun midfielders, should really give us a chance to execute Operation 2017.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Bound for Glory mentioned that Tyson signed a contract extension but I can't find much more on him. Would like to get him in a trade, especially since he is from the Chargers but I think the asking price will be too high. If he does enter the draft, I doubt he would last until our second round pick and our first rounder might be too high.

A really good draft this year could really set us up for the future. Right now, I think we'd be in the Matt Crouch range, possibly even Josh Kelly if he manages to slide. Two gun midfielders, should really give us a chance to execute Operation 2017.

He did re-sign.. He did when Patton, etc all signed. 2-3 years i think.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Key
5 years left
4 years left
3 years left
2 years left
1 year left

Senior List (50/50 Players)
1 Phil Davis - 2015
2 Curtly Hampton - 2016
3 Stephen Coniglio - 2015
4 Toby Greene - 2015
5 Dylan Shiel - 2015
6 Lachie Whitfield - 2014
7 Rhys Palmer - 2015
8 Callan Ward - 2016
9 Tom Scully - 2017
10 Devon Smith - 2015
11 Taylor Adams - 2013
12 Jonathan Patton - 2015
13 Sam Darley - 2013
14 Tomas Bugg - 2015
15 Tim Golds - 2015
16 Nathan Wilson - 2013
17 Adam Treloar - 2015
18 Jeremy Cameron - 2015
19 Nick Haynes - 2013
20 Adam Tomlinson - 2015
21 Matthew Buntine - 2015
22 Shaun Edwards - 2013
23 Sam Reid - 2014
24 Jono O'Rourke - 2014
25 Anthony Miles - 2013
26 Jonathan Giles - 2015
27 Andrew Phillips - 2015
28 Liam Sumner - 2013
29 Dom Tyson - 2015
30 Lachie Plowman - 2014
31 Jacob Townsend - 2015
32 Gerald Ugle - 2013
33 Will Hoskin-Elliott - 2015
34 Kristian Jaksch - 2014
35 Aidan Corr - 2016
36 James Stewart - 2014
37 Setanta Ó hAilpín - 2013
38 Stephen Gilham - 2014
39 Tim Mohr - 2015
40 Adam Kennedy - 2015
41 Josh Growden - 2013
42 Mark Whiley - 2013
43 Kurt Aylett - 2013
44 Tom Downie - 2013
45 Sam Schulz - 2013
46 Bret Thornton - 2014
47 Josh Bruce - 2013
48 Sam Frost - 2015
50 Dean Brogan - 2013
53 Chad Cornes - 2013

Rookie List

49 Joe Redfern - 2013
51 Zach Williams - 2013

Rahul

 

[Strahany]

Sumner would be a good addition to our side. Lightning quick, puts on plenty of pressure, and most importantly, his kicking doesn't drop off when at full pace.

In the 2011 draft, GWS were playing funny buggers and didn't pick Longer with one of their earlier picks, hoping that they'd snag him at 10. Of course, Brisbane jumped in, and GWS were left to take a good player, as opposed to one that fitted a need. Many were surprised that Sumner went at 10, but that's not to say it's completely unwarranted.

When you consider all that, I wouldn't be surprised if Sumner is floated around as trade bait at the end of this year (which is what many people thought he was drafted for, in the first place). He certainly wouldn't oppose coming home to Melbourne, but the problem is finding a trade that would satisfy GWS - we certainly won't be trading our first round pick (and I doubt we'd downgrade it), and we wouldn't be too keen on parting with our second rounder, either. So, unless one of our expendable senior players is deemed an adequate trade, I can't see this (or any other trade with GWS) getting done.

 

[Defacto]

would be nice to get a similar run down for gold coast

 

[saintsrfreak]

Would move heaven and earth for Prestia