Capital punishment

Capital punishment Re Introduced?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 43.8%

  • No

    Votes: 9 56.3%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    16

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IntheNet said:
Depends on the issue! I keep telling you that you cannot globally make comparisons between capital punishment and abortion and arbitrarily determine that folks can do what they want in regard to social issues.
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Who decides which issues Catholics can differ form the Vatican on? You? The Vatican? Me? Jesus?

So is it OK for a Catholic to support Gay marriage?

Is it OK for a Catholic to use contraception?

Governments conduct and perform capital punishment while individuals conduct and perform abortions... the difference between the two issues is huge.
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Governments decide whether or not abortion are legal and in what situations. If abortions comply with the laws of the country in which they are preformed I'm not sure how you can not let Catholics support them, whilst you support CP.

You seem to incorrectly see similiarities between the two and wish to use both as reasons to defy the Vatican...
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Again you avoid the question. How come you can pick and chose which issues you wish to disagree with the Vatican on but liberal Catholics cannot. Surely either Catholics must support the Vatican on all issues or be allowed to be allowed apply their own conscience on all issues.
 
I think he's got you there InTheNet. For future references, you should follow the fundy protestant line of answering

ie: the bible is the one true word of God and is infallible etc etc

You can then use it to defend any position you like
 
jimmy.h said:
Again you avoid the question. How come you can pick and chose which issues you wish to disagree with the Vatican on but liberal Catholics cannot. Surely either Catholics must support the Vatican on all issues or be allowed to be allowed apply their own conscience on all issues.
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That's what I'm talking about when I mention the faux-Christian. People that hide behind religious teaching to justify their own hatreds and bigotry, yet when that same teaching doesn't support their beliefs, they think it's OK for their exceptions.
 

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jimmy.h said:
Who decides which issues Catholics can differ form the Vatican on...
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The Pope is The Decider... he's the Lord's representative on earth... many of the edicts in Vatican II were ignored by traditional Catholics... Historically speaking however, the Roman Catholic Church traditionally accepted capital punishment as per the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas (who accepted the death penalty as a necessary deterrent and crime prevention method, but not as the means of vengeance). This belief changed over the years to one of support for incarceration for criminals. My belief, however, shadows the early Church on this matter.
 
jimmy.h said:
So what gives you the authority to say he's wrong on this issue?
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I don't think he is, purely on the issue of the individual. Since I don't conduct capital punishment, I am in full compliance with the Pope on this issue. However, as to whether the government, my government, should comply, that is yet another question...
 
IntheNet said:
I don't think he is, purely on the issue of the individual. Since I don't conduct capital punishment, I am in full compliance with the Pope on this issue. However, as to whether the government, my government, should comply, that is yet another question...
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The Pope says your Government should not conduct executions.

You say your Government should conduct executions.

You are saying the Pope is wrong.

If a Catholic does not personally conduct an abortion is it OK for them to support doctors doing so, as they are personally in compliance?
 
jimmy.h said:
The Pope says your Government should not conduct executions.
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The Pope's encyclical calls for all the world to stop executions.

jimmy.h said:
You say your Government should conduct executions.
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I said I support it. Doesn't mean I would do it myself. Quite a difference between government and individual.

jimmy.h said:
You are saying the Pope is wrong.
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Actually no. I am simply supporting my government and my religion.

jimmy.h said:
If a Catholic does not personally conduct an abortion is it OK for them to support doctors doing so, as they are personally in compliance?
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I do that myself; "go and sin no more" is what Jesus Himself said. Doctors who conduct abortions can be saved by realizing their killing ways and repent. And I see you are still trying to link abortion and capital punishment; two very different issues as I have several times explained.
 
IntheNet said:
The Pope's encyclical calls for all the world to stop executions.
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So as a good Catholic shouldn't you be trying to do what you can to realise this goal. I.E lobbying your Government to stop executions, giving your support to anti-death penality candidates, joining anti-death penalty groups etc?

I said I support it. Doesn't mean I would do it myself. Quite a difference between government and individual.
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So you support your government doing something you wouldn't do your self?

Are the Government's who execute sinful?

Actually no. I am simply supporting my government and my religion.
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Whose views are in direct conflict with each other, you can't support both points of view.

I do that myself; "go and sin no more" is what Jesus Himself said. Doctors who conduct abortions can be saved by realizing their killing ways and repent.
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is that your opinion on those who execute people and the Governments who instruct them too?

And I see you are still trying to link abortion and capital punishment; two very different issues as I have several times explained.
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No, I am linking your views which say to support one is sinful because thats the vatican's view, but to support the other is not, directly going against what the Vatican teaches.

Also please answer these question:

So is it OK for a Catholic to disagree with the Vatican on Gay marriage?

Is it OK for a Catholic to disagee with the Vatican contraception?

is it Ok for a catholic to disagree with the Vatican on the Iraq War?

is it OK for a Catholic to disagree with the vatican on evolution?
 

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IntheNet said:
I did.
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No, you didn't.

You have repeatedly ignored any question regarding the inconstencies of your belief in following the Vatican blindly, as well as the absurdity of your attempt to argue that you support Capital punishment and oppose Capital Punishment simultaneously.

You have also failed to respond to my questions asking if you view those who partake in capital punishment in the same way you view those who partake in abortions.

But since you keep trying to link abortion and capital punishment, despite me proving about 10 time the wrongness thereto, I decided not to keep trying to preach to someone who can't understand plain English!
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Simply saying there is no link does not constitute proving it.

you also ignored the point made that the difference between the two is that in CP an actual person is killed.

Your view appears to be, if inthenet disagrees with the Pope it's a matter of conscience when inthenet agrees with the Pope, it's sinful to disagree.
 
This argument is going in circles, so it's okay to kill an adult but not a foetus? That's ridiculous.

The vatican is very clear on it's stance on cp, it's against it. It's also very clear, either you support it's beliefs or you're not a true catholic. I remember when I was told that if you support abortion, you're not a catholic, which I responded with: "okay, I'm not."

The vatican says it's bad to kill, the US government supports cp. You can't have it both ways. Thall shalt not kill. It's very clear and one of the fundamental principles of the catholic belief. It's hypocritical to support murder yet call yourself a catholic, not mention dishonest.
 
jimmy.h said:
...the difference between the two is that in CP an actual person is killed...
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See? This is how I know you're not serious! You give sympathy and love to a criminal getting his just due but deny the life that the abortionist rips apart and vacuums out...

Ever seen an execution? I have! I went to a state correctional facility a few years ago and watched the execution of a convict. Others in attendance included local media, friends of the victim who the convict killed, and some legal officers. Very calm event and convict was put to sleep before injection of chemicals which caused his heart to cease beating. I was struck by how calm everthing is... hardly punishment...

Contrasted with this, just a few months ago I witnessed an abortion on a pre-term fetus. It took quite a bit of effort to be able to witness it (legally and otherwise) and even with permission I was unable to view the actual termination... It was, however, clear that it was an extremely violent act. Bits and pieces of body of baby ripped from the mother... violently and with great force with forcepts, cutting tools, vacuum apparatus, and lots of blood... horrible punishment...

I urge you to view an execution of a convict then go an view an abortion of a baby. Then let's talk okay?
 
IntheNet said:
See? This is how I know you're not serious! You give sympathy and love to a criminal getting his just due but deny the life that the abortionist rips apart and vacuums out...

Ever seen an execution? I have! I went to a state correctional facility a few years ago and watched the execution of a convict. Others in attendance included local media, friends of the victim who the convict killed, and some legal officers. Very calm event and convict was put to sleep before injection of chemicals which caused his heart to cease beating. I was struck by how calm everthing is... hardly punishment...

Contrasted with this, just a few months ago I witnessed an abortion on a pre-term fetus. It took quite a bit of effort to be able to witness it (legally and otherwise) and even with permission I was unable to view the actual termination... It was, however, clear that it was an extremely violent act. Bits and pieces of body of baby ripped from the mother... violently and with great force with forcepts, cutting tools, vacuum apparatus, and lots of blood... horrible punishment...

I urge you to view an execution of a convict then go an view an abortion of a baby. Then let's talk okay?
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Stop avoiding the issue.

Why won't you answer my questions? Scared?
 
IntheNet said:
Ever seen an execution? I have! I went to a state correctional facility a few years ago and watched the execution of a convict. Others in attendance included local media, friends of the victim who the convict killed, and some legal officers. Very calm event and convict was put to sleep before injection of chemicals which caused his heart to cease beating. I was struck by how calm everthing is... hardly punishment...
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It's not about punishment - it's about removing a dangerous individual from society.

Contrasted with this, just a few months ago I witnessed an abortion on a pre-term fetus. It took quite a bit of effort to be able to witness it (legally and otherwise) and even with permission I was unable to view the actual termination... It was, however, clear that it was an extremely violent act. Bits and pieces of body of baby ripped from the mother... violently and with great force with forcepts, cutting tools, vacuum apparatus, and lots of blood... horrible punishment...
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It's not a baby. It's a foetus. How do you know what, if anything, it feels.
 
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